the ultimate perfection

Sorry Chris but I didn't think we were reducing this down to the conventional

Oh, OK. But aren't we using conventional terms to describe something conceptual, and then pretending that the purely conceptual thing precedents the conventional? That was kinda my problem with the whole "perfection" thing from the start.

Chris
 
Well, we started out with Plato, and the idea of Forms and forms, so I thought we were still in the realm of metaphor:confused:
 
No, no. I do get it. Sometimes I can't turn this part of my brain off. Trees falling in forests, sound of one hand clapping kinda thing.

Chris
 
Ironically the conventional seems abstract and what was once abstract seems more real.
 
Well...ultimately there is no such thing as thing, but I'm stuck using the language of things to describe no-thing, and I can't get outside of that.

Chris
 
I don't think you really have to Chris. Who can honestly say that our everyday experience isn't important? You can say that it has little cosmic significance that you kiss your child goodnight and linger a moment watching them sleep before you head downstairs but in that moment you are alive and actuality is present.
 
CCS

Is half an apple a whole apple? It’s a whole, but it’s not a whole apple.
good point.
hmm its a whole no matter how much one divides it yet it is not a ‘perfect’ apple unless it is whole. apples though are never perfect, the universal archetype of apple is.

i suppose this is the problem when we deal with the holistic side of things.
the everyday is in my view more important the rest of it is just what everyday life is made of.

i don’t know, hmm an object is an object and perhaps doesn’t matter on the everyday level
but ya can’t have half a human :D
 
Math is a language. Within the mind, the math of an equation that resolves to 1 = 1 is always true. Perfection? Nope. Even as I wrote it: 1=1... it is a false statement. It is an untrue equation. Why? In this universe, 1=1 is a gross approximation. The two '1' are entirely different because they have entirely different addresses. A '1' in the first sentence is as non-equal as the '1' in this sentence. They exist in different spaces and different times. In this universe 1 = 1 is a gross approximation, so that equation that is called perfect will forever be imperfect... it is always false in one way or another. 1=1 implies a perfection where there is none... the true perfection is that every single 1 is entirely unique and is never equal. Every single 1 is counted, and none of them are equal. That is where I see... and imagine outside of what I see... the Perfection in this Universe.

Realize that there are no two particles, and there is no sets of particles that are ever the same. Ever. Two particles and two sets of particles are forever different. To think that 1 electron = 1 electron is as wrong as thinking that 1 electron = 1 neutron. Both statements are false. If one electron is heading east and the other is heading west, they are not equal. If one electron is in on Earth and the other is in heaven, they are not equal. If two electrons are sharing a covalent bond, they are not equal.

I know that an intelligent person will point out to me that I am taking the '=' a little too literally, applying qualities that were not intended in the equation... so then my reply is that I am not the one who ever claimed that a single equation in math was ever perfect or true. You can imagine that the attribute of count is the only thing that is implied in the '='. That is a fine vivid imagination of the mathemagician. How many electrons are you going to count in this Universe? I can physically count one electron in my hand, but in the same instance I can only imagine another. Therefore no two particles are EVER counted the same.

As an engineer, I make use of math... I tell you that an equation is always an approximation at best. Every one of the equations I have ever seen is a gross generalization or a gross approximation. I recognize that I am in a world of illusion, and a math teacher is an illusionist. Mind you, I am an engineer who uses math.

China Cat Sunflower said:
We can't start talking about something at one level of a hierarchy, transfer it by analogy to a lower level, and then transfer the conclusions back to the higher level. Can't do that.
Why not, that is precisely what every scientist does with math. Self included. I might count something using gross approximations, count something else using more gross approximations, add the two together and make assumptions about those real somethings. Math 101. In fact, that is precisely what everyone does with mere words because it is precisely what everyone does with the neurons in their brain. Every neuron is a mere symbol. Something on one level of a hierarchy is moved around and then the conclusions are transferred back to the higher level. Words, equations, and neurons are all imperfect symbols. Yet each are unique and are communicated between unique individuals who are never physically equal. There I see... perfection. 1=1... NOT perfect.
 
cyberpi, hi

Within the mind, the math of an equation that resolves to 1 = 1 is always true. Perfection? Nope.
Every single 1 is counted, and none of them are equal. That is where I see... and imagine outside of what I see... the Perfection in this Universe.

indeed! and yes, the fact that nothing is a direct copy is a kind of perfection. it seams that existence is intelligently made to create ‘freedom’ in every sense of the term ~ even in meaning!

There I see... perfection. 1=1... NOT perfect.

hmm should we say that all 1=1, but no copy of 1=1. so one apple is one apple but two apples is not 1a + 1a.
only ones exist and again they are whole, but it cannot be repeated to the detriment of the former whole, so you get 1+1+1+1+1+1 but no two ‘1’ are the same.
 
Math is a language. Within the mind, the math of an equation that resolves to 1 = 1 is always true. Perfection? Nope. Even as I wrote it: 1=1... it is a false statement. It is an untrue equation. Why? In this universe, 1=1 is a gross approximation. The two '1' are entirely different because they have entirely different addresses. A '1' in the first sentence is as non-equal as the '1' in this sentence. They exist in different spaces and different times. In this universe 1 = 1 is a gross approximation, so that equation that is called perfect will forever be imperfect... it is always false in one way or another. 1=1 implies a perfection where there is none... the true perfection is that every single 1 is entirely unique and is never equal. Every single 1 is counted, and none of them are equal. That is where I see... and imagine outside of what I see... the Perfection in this Universe.
<...>
1=1... NOT perfect.
Agreed.
 

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y thank U,
but i cannot claim responsibility for it
years ago we used to have "autograph" books (as if we met anyone famous) LOL
and someone wrote it in mine and ive been waiting all the years to put it in its final place. LOL
 
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