An Ideal Islamic World

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Let's say that pragmatism is no obstacle. Imagine an ideal pan national Islamic unity... What does it look like? What does Islam look like in a modern golden age? What would you like it to be?

Chris
 
Ok, I'll go with a world of Islam.... But, which following? ;) Pragmatism... Is an obstacle lol.... People cannot get over this.

I think, (to me) that is like saying an ideal Christian world... Well, is it possible? As there are so many that claim to be of one religion... Yet their views vaules and beliefs differ, and if left to man alone... Even under the same banner, we see that we fail to unite, always discrimination(to a degree. which isn't of our religions.)

Even in the same groups... Some follow these hadiths, but not these ones... And with the hadiths, there is NO harmony lol.... They differ so much. I think it was all going just dandy until the death of Muhammad (saws) This is where you get the blood-line, voting issue.

Anyway, less of that, any sunni Muslims here? Would you beleive you could make an ideal world? If it were just you and the Shi-te Muslims? (vice versa) Harmony and no bloodshed?

But yeah sure, if we say pragmatism isn't an issue, then yes it would be perfect.... Peace, no war, brotherly Love, devotion to a god and all would be of charitable notions, not self. Which is the obvious answer, if everyone agreed, then you'd expect that.
 
But yeah sure, if we say pragmatism isn't an issue, then yes it would be perfect.... Peace, no war, brotherly Love, devotion to a god and all would be of charitable notions, not self. Which is the obvious answer, if everyone agreed, then you'd expect that.

No way. If all people agreed there would be something fundamentally wrong. We would be living in a world of zombies.
 
To agree, doesn't mean to lose individuality.....

I agree it is fun to come to this site!! So much to learn and can share opinions...... I am a half assed, lazy, stoner....

*random name* Dauer... Agrees that this site is fun, and educational and a great place to share his views.... He is gonna be a freaking rabbi one day..... (I am certain he'd agree with that statement sorry first name that came to head)

Way different characters.... But an agreement...

So to all agree would cause peace there isn't anything to argue.... But anyway I feel that is what would happen...
 
Let's say that pragmatism is no obstacle. Imagine an ideal pan national Islamic unity... What does it look like? What does Islam look like in a modern golden age? What would you like it to be?

Chris

If everyone was truly Muslim, meaning in submission to the will of God, we'd all be angels and it would be Paradise right here right now all the time forever. (If everyone was truly Christian, it would be the same.) If everyone truly followed their Prophets, we'd be perfect.... it would be a perfect world.
 
It would be a totalitarian hell. I would like it to never happen.
False. The Qur'an expressly forbids having dictators between a person and Allah (swt). Per the Qur'an I think it is evident that the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was not a totalitarian dictator.
 
I think Tao is more along the lines of he believes historically there was such a person, but not all the spiritual "stuff".... :) Dunno, just while he ain't here I thought I'd answer for him lol... (bit like me and jesus/messiah) I am -guessing- lol.
 
I think Tao is more along the lines of he believes historically there was such a person, but not all the spiritual "stuff".... :) Dunno, just while he ain't here I thought I'd answer for him lol... (bit like me and jesus/messiah) I am -guessing- lol.
Do you likewise think Jesus or Muhammad (pbut) were for a totalitarian government?
 
Do you likewise think Jesus or Muhammad (pbut) were for a totalitarian government?

Of course They would not support tyranny. Some governments claim to follow a particular religion but don't actually practice it. There are tyrants who claim to be religious. They are not.
 
"Let there be no compulsion in religion." -the Qur'an.

How many dictators ignore this verse? Religious liberty is Islamic. Denying religious liberty is not. Tyranny will fall and there will be religious liberty for everyone.... In EVERY country.
 
Let's say that pragmatism is no obstacle. Imagine an ideal pan national Islamic unity... What does it look like? What does Islam look like in a modern golden age? What would you like it to be?

Chris

To get an idea, you could always look to the centuries before the first crusades, ie, 8th-10th centuries.

While individual social issues no doubt invite their own microscope, relative to the rest of the world's societies of the time they rarely appeared excessive - excepting in terms of embracing science, the arts, and knowledge in general.
 
A ruler who is God-conscious, well-versed in..as they say...ulum al-aql (logical knowledge/sciences), ulum an-naql (traditional knowledge/legalistic religion) & kashaf (spiritual unvieling/vision)

Scholars that are orthodox & progressive. Who realise that renaissance & enlightenment have got roots in Islam, not in Christianity, & who dont bother about the labels that western acadmics & media creates for them. But rather bother about their duty to the ummah.

People who believe in absolutes, absolutes that come from Quran & Sunnah, absolutes about which are proud & rational, not defensive. Who ....in the words of Bruce Lee, "take whats good, leave whats not", from the free-floating standards of the west, & rest of the world.

A society that is founded upon Islamic fundamentals.

A politico-economic system that is sharia complient & progessive. Doesnt come with the drawbacks of contemporary capitalist-democratic systems.

Scientists who have all rights to research in whatever field they want to, without any consideration for the kings of the west, intellectual fascists in the words of Ahmedinajad.

A complete control of their economy & defence.

Artists who create art that takes one higher, away from animal desires. No shaking booties, no gangsta-art, nothing of that sort.

In simple terms.... a balanced & holistic environment, physical, psychological, intellectual, spiritual, social, global.....

Since we dont have to think about pragmatism here......otherwise each one of the points have the potential to start a full scale nuclear war.
 
It would be a totalitarian hell. I would like it to never happen

If its Islamic, then it wont be totaliterian, if its totaliterian, than it wont be Islamic. In a perfectly Islamic system, you will have the right to ask," yo...you want us to send our sons to die in sand, how many of yours have you send to be butchered this way". Or,"we dont give you you such a big paycheque, how do you manage to finance your life style".

When was the last time somebody asked such questions in the democratic west.....think.
 
Thats right, he didnt like little girls either.
Comeon........everybody likes little girls....boys....rabbits....koalas....lamas....apple trees....butterflies....rainbows........dont be so hard on your self :rolleyes:
 
Let's say that pragmatism is no obstacle. Imagine an ideal pan national Islamic unity... What does it look like? What does Islam look like in a modern golden age? What would you like it to be?Chris

Hey, Cat!

I noticed Brian strayed somewhat from your “no pragmatism” rule by setting the question in the golden age of Islam (9th to 11th centuries), and pointing out that in that historical context Islam does relatively well. Of course, by implication to remove this particular stage of Islam to another context considerably changes the picture. It could be said that the attempt to do so is a recurring tragedy in Muslim history.

But to stick to Islam in the ideal sense, as construct, as basic doctrine, I hope it doesn’t sound too pragmatic to say that it turns on one’s sensibility. The idea of millions around the world bowing at the same instant toward the same geographical point seems to some an inspiring vision of unity, of a world of men transformed into one of white-robed angels. My sensibility is opposite and similar to what Tao has expressed. To me this is a vision of hideous uniformity that has sub-zero appeal, to put it mildly. Frankly, it gives me the creeps. That’s my limitation, and no doubt culturally conditioned one, at least in part.

But my sensibility in this is also conditioned by my basically pantheist/monist/non-dual mindset. Call it that familiar sense of “oneness”. Now for me the phenomenal correlate for this noumenal oneness is pluralism. The universe is one inconceivable process, forming and reforming as creative pulse, looking at itself, playing an eternal game of hide and seek, and overall doing a helluva job/Job, thank you very much.

Now it seems to me that Islam’s monotheist God is also a species of “oneness”; after all, he alone and his will are what is ultimately real; but the phenomenal correlate of this noumenal oneness is ideological conformity. God is not at play, but very hard at work policing and surveilling his creations, putting his inscrutable plan into play, treading the heavy path of his Will.

So my “impersonal”, pantheist view of sacred reality, while indulgent of angels, is filled with persons, while the Muslim “personal”, monotheist view of sacred reality would empty the world of people in favor of angels – which at the least seems a dull prospect.

So the gap here would seem unbridgeable. Luckily ideology breaks down constantly in the face of actuality, and authoritarian structures never really work the way they’re supposed to.

Shanti.
 
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