General feed back on "belief and spirituality"

*whispers*

pssst... Francis... It's vey. Oy vey.


--Dauer
 
Hi Alex

All I can say is that my path is related to what is called esoteric Christianity which has nothing to do with the facets of Christendom most call Christianity.

Rather than serving escapism or secular dominance, it is the pursuit of "meaning" which is why so many artists are attracted to it. Yet it is logical which is why it attracts scientists and psychological which is why it attracts psychologists. But I know Christianity has a bad connotation. So if you are seriously interested in this question of religion that is unrelated to Christendom but includes scientists, artists, psychologists and just regular people, I would invite you to read Jacob Needleman's book: "Lost Christianity."

I've organized book discussions at my local library on it so know it well. Labels become meaningless. It is human "being" that is important. But to give you an idea of its purpose, I will copy the preface. If it appeals to you and you would like to read it, it is easily available

Amazon.com: Lost Christianity: Jacob Needleman: Books

"Do You wish to know God? Learn first to know yourself"

-ABBA EVAGRIUS, FOURTH CENTURY

"Never in recent memory has the world been at once so deeply drawn toward religion and so troubled about it. As it is now clear, all self assured predictions that the march of modern science would marginalize religion have proved false. As far as Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are concerned, we are, on the contrary, in a period of religious expansion throughout the Americas, Africa, the Middle East, and Southeast Asia. At the same time, it is clear that with the very survival of our civilization hanging in the balance, the question relentlessly insists itself: Is religion a force for good or ill in the life of humanity? Does the actual influence of religion, in fact sometimes intensify the very defilements of human nature - ignorance, fear, hatred, - from which doctrines and practices are intended to liberate us?

As once again we witness the horrific engines of war being fueled by religious zeal of one kind or another, and under one kind of name or another, the answer to this question is obviously to be: Yes, sometimes: Yes often! Have not the darkest crimes of world history - the insane barbarism of genocide, the bloody crusades, the murder of innocents, and the depredation of defenseless cultures - have not many, if not most, of these crimes been committed under the banner of religion or through a quasi-religious frenzy attaching itself to religious ideals? Put next to these endlessly recurrent horrors, the intimate comforts of personal religious faith and day-to-day individual efforts to live religiously may seem to count for little in the balance scales of human life on earth. Little wonder, then that so many of the best minds of the modern era entirely rejected religion as a foundation for both ethics and knowledge. Just as the scientific turn of the mind seemed to have entirely eclipsed religion's claim to knowledge, so - it has seemed to many - the same modern turn of mind must inevitably displace religion's claim to moral authority. Just as religion can no longer show us what is true but must yield that task to methods of thought that are independent of religious doctrine, so neither can religion, it was claimed, show us what is good, but must now surrender that task as well to the secular mind of modernity.

But in fact, no assumption of moral authority by secular humanism has taken hold or now seems in any way likely or justified. The modern era, the era of science, while witnessing the phenomenal acceleration of scientific discovery and its applications in technological innovation, has brought the world the inconceivable slaughter and chaos of modern war, along with the despair of ethical dilemmas arising from new technologies that all at once project humanity's essence-immortality onto the entire planet: global injustice, global heartlessness, and global disintegration of the normal patterns of life that have guided mankind for a millennia. Neither the secular philosophies of our epoch nor its theories of human nature - pragmatism, positivism, Marxism, Liberalism, humanism, behaviorism, biological determinism, psychoanalysis - nor the traditional doctrines of the religions, in the way we have understood them, seem able to confront or explain the crimes of humanity in our era, nor other wise and compassionate guidance through the labyrinth of paralyzing new ethical problems.

What is needed is either a new understanding of God or a new understanding of Man: an understanding of God that does not insult the scientific mind while offering bread, not a stone, to the deepest hunger of the heart; an understanding of Man that squarely faces the criminal weakness of our moral will while holding out to us the knowledge of how we can strive within ourselves to become the fully human being we were meant to be -- both for ourselves and as instruments of a higher purpose.

But this is not an either/or. The premise --or rather, the proposal -- of this book is that at the heart of the Christian religion there exists, and has always existed, just such a vision of God and Man. I call it "Lost Christianity," not because it is a matter of doctrines and concepts that may have been lost or forgotten; nor even a matter of methods of spiritual practice that may need to be recovered from ancient sources. It is all that, to be sure, but what is lost in the whole of our modern life, including our understanding of religion, is something even more fundamental, without which religious ideas and practices lose their meaning and all to easily become the instruments of ignorance, fear, and hatred. What is lost is the experience of oneself -- myself, the personal being who is here, now, living, breathing, yearning for meaning, for goodness; just this person here, now, squarely confronting ones existential weaknesses and pretensions while yet aware, however tentatively, of a higher current of life and identity calling to us from within ourselves. This presence to oneself is the missing element in the whole of the life of Man, the intermediate state of consciousness between what we are meant to be and what we actually are. it is perhaps the one bridge that can lead us from our inhuman past toward the human future.

In the writings and utterances of the great teachers of Christianity over the centuries, one may begin to discern, like a photographic image gradually developing before ones eyes, the outlines of this vision of what is called in this book "intermediate Christianity." But modern man can no longer perceive that vision or hear that language tjhat has been associated with it. Words like "humility," "purity of heart," "contrition" are no longer understood to require the individual, existential struggle, for what the early Fathers called "attention in oneself." On the contrary, it is assumed that such qualities of character can be ours in the distracted and dispersed state of being that is more and more characteristic of life in the contemporary world. The result is self deception which masks, and perhaps even intensifies, our weaknesses and which inevitably leads to the disillusionment with religious ideals that has been one of the hallmarks of the modern secular worldview. Of course, the modernist attempt to establish ethical life without religion itself ignores the same lost element in human life that has been forgotten in the conventional understanding of religion. The result is often a sad ineffectuality under the name of rousing moral formulae - or, ironically, the decay of what began in opposition to perceived religious tyranny into its own brand of quasi-religious dogmatism and violence - as witnessed for example, in the fate of communist ideology.

Whether it is conventional religion or secular humanism, or any other modern program of morality or inner betterment, the question remains: Can there be any hope or our becoming what we are meant to be without first becoming fully and deeply aware of what we in fact are, now, here, in just this moment of our lives? Whether religious or not, is there any hope for man who has lost this capacity, or forgotten the need, to know himself and to be alive and present in himself?

The great ideas and ideals of Christianity continue to offer hope and comfort to the world, as do the ideals of Judaism and Islam -- and all the world's great religions. And as do the ideals of humanistic morality, with its passionate commitment to justice and to human rights. Yet we see, we see, we cannot help but see that now, as ever, something is missing, something has been forgotten about ourselves and in ourselves. Our children see it as clearly as we sometimes do; more clearly! The words of St.Paul never sounded more distinctly than they do now in the lengthening shadows of our civilization.

For the good that I would I do not; but the evil which I would not, that I do......Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

-Romans 7"
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D- you crack me up. I was rolling around giggling picturing you shooting the bad guys with your bagels. LOL :D

Alex-

I have no real advice here. I often feel the desire for spiritual community, but no community is the perfectly right (for me) community. Maybe it is so for everyone, but they are less sensitive to dissonance. That said, I have certainly found communities that are more right for me and ones that simply drive me crazy. I'm not into religion as a "feel good" mechanism, though it can make me feel great. But mostly, I want to grow, so I want a community that is supportive, loving, but challenging. One out for social justice and real action- that walks their faith.

There are those communities in nearly all religions.

I have no real help here to offer, except to encourage you to stick with a religion long enough to find out if it is not for you. So many people only try a religion or spiritual community for a month and then give up on it. I forget who in this string talked about it as falling in love, but that would be accurate. Many are initially in love with a religion, it creates ecstasy or at least illumination, and then reality sinks in. Not everyone in the community is nice or walks their faith, there are inconsistencies and discomforts. Before you know it, people leave and keep searching, looking for the perfect religion.

The way I look at it, there isn't one. Religion is a human institution and, as such, always flawed.

I used to abandon all spiritual community and religion in favor of only my own individualistic path (hence, path of one). However, I have come to realize through discussions on CR that a sense of community is important- not for a sense of belonging for myself, but rather because love is an interactive thing. I believe that there is value in sticking it out, so long as this is not self-damaging. The value of simply reaching out in spirituality to a body of people, no matter what the tradition, has a spiritual impact on its own. I'm not sure if I'm saying any of this right, since I haven't thought it all the way through for myself yet.

I guess what I'm saying is that the balance may be the key. Faith and relationship with the Divine can be personal, yet expressed communally. Perhaps this is how it should be, though I hesitate to pass out "shouldas" since it sounds like a prescription and I'm no authority. I can only say that there is value, in my opinion, in both forging one's own path and staying true to one's own experience and also recognizing the value of communal spiritual practice. I have not yet found the "perfect" religious home, but I can sense enough value in religion to be OK with forgiving the gap between my own spirituality and a reasonably well-fitting church's practice and belief. So long as the dissonance is not tremendously great, the benefits are reaped (I believe both to myself and the religious community), simply by the discipline of involvement spiritually with a social group. I am not social either, so this does require discipline. It's hard to explain, but I really think it is important and valuable, even when I or others are uncomfortable.

I'm rambling now, so I'll close... :eek:
 
LeoSalinas22 said:
brudda alex, this is from the "jesus:what happens now"thread. it came to mind as i was reading yours and dauer's posts. hope you remember.

you ask what spirituality is? it could jump up and bite you in the ass and you wouldn't have noticed it! you are one humble guy, you know that? noticing these things, alex, is the essence of spiritualilty. the core. to feel the pain of others is a very very rare thing. especially in this messed up world. don't ever stop feeling the pain of others. and don't ever stop wanting to help others. this is the true religion. as soon as we feel each others pain, on a massive scale, global if you will, then is when we will all be as one.

my friend, you don't need a "club" to be spiritual. the majority of religions lose sight of what is really important, they concentrate on their own self righteousness. their own doctrine and in the process, forget that a person really only wants to be listened to. that they simply just want to talk because their heart is broken. the world has lied to us. stabbed us in the back and it hurts. we're like weeping orphans looking for that love that was robbed from us, because we were too selfish to give this love to each other.

look, these are merely my thoughts. i don't need a religion. what i do need to do is what is right. i did so many stupid things in the past and i am still making up for those mistakes. i don't think i'll ever make up for these things and no religion in this world will help me with this.

i can understand that you want to feel like you belong somewhere, but what you feel is very rare. if you notice all the posters here on cr, look how far apart we all are. and we are only a hand full! it would be amazing if we all decided to just pack up and live in some sort of community and talk about religion face to face all day. and travel the world and help people in need, sort of like a super hero team or something. anyways, its a lonely road, get used to it. that is all i have to say on this. thanks for reading and hope you find what you are looking for, bruh.
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Wow...Just Wow!!

I was going to say something pithy and profound, but Leo..What an amazing post. You've expressed something that has been circling my mind and heart for the last several years.

I agree that our hurts have the capability to strengthen us, to give us the ability to empathize with others, perhaps to spur us to do good to those in need. There are so many, all around us that, if anything, just needs a friend.

Spirituality is connection, with ourselves, with others, with the Divne Presence. There may been a plane of bliss associated with it, in which we fly high (with the Flying Jew :))but more often that comes when we reach out to others rather than trying to pull it in. There is a reason why it is more blessed to give than to receive. For the flow of your projection is without, instead of within. Compassion is a snowball waiting to happen.
 
Hi Alex,

Alex P said:
<snip>...Have a faith be so darn sure about it,...
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Personally, this is not part of the equation for me, the 'so darn sure about' part I mean. Frankly, I've needed to embrace the unsure aspect of it, in fact I wonder if certainty is not perhaps the opposite of faith (admitting that this view has been formed over my years! online from many souls more enlightened than myself).

and have trust and I guess a spiritual connection to it.
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Trust is a good word to use when talking about faith because it points to the relationship and the uncertainty. We trust based upon experience; we build models but we don't know. I think there's been a long thread about this recently so apologies for any redundancy!

I'm a Christian now but out of all the Christian beliefs the principle I trust is love. So I think you are on the right track.
 
Personally, this is not part of the equation for me, the 'so darn sure about' part I mean. Frankly, I've needed to embrace the unsure aspect of it, in fact I wonder if certainty is not perhaps the opposite of faith (admitting that this view has been formed over my years! online from many souls more enlightened than myself).
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I second that. Personally I find people who are unwilling to admit they might be wrong, even if they believe that they're probably right, a bit frightening. It's like meeting a wall sometimes which isn't the worst thing in the world. But in other cases it's a wall of daggers that threatens destruction to that which does not fit into its worldview.

-- Dauer
 
dauer said:
I second that. Personally I find people who are unwilling to admit they might be wrong, even if they believe that they're probably right, a bit frightening. It's like meeting a wall sometimes which isn't the worst thing in the world. But in other cases it's a wall of daggers that threatens destruction to that which does not fit into its worldview.

-- Dauer
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At least it isn't a glass door... You sometimes don't see them coming... One time... Was holding a party at my house last christmas... My mothers partner.. Had a few to drink... Walked into our conversatory sliding doors three times... In the span of one evening, I could of wet myself... That will be one of the most hilarious moments of my life.. Everytime he went out into the conservatory to smoke we all waited with baited breahs to see his face squash and then rebound off the glass lol... Ugh I am laughing in my office right now.. We are a family of sadistic bastards lol...

OH! And another sick part... I even shine them doors up real clean when we have parties lol.... I am damned lol... But hey, it gets a ton of laughs lol.... At least I haven't set up cameras to film it... yet.
 
I did something like that once, at a bbq at my uncle's. Everyone was outside and I was inside. Someone outside called my name and I ran straight through the screen door. It didn't leave a hole in the shape of my body like in cartoons, just got pretty bent up and fell down.
 
dauer said:
I did something like that once, at a bbq at my uncle's. Everyone was outside and I was inside. Someone outside called my name and I ran straight through the screen door. It didn't leave a hole in the shape of my body like in cartoons, just got pretty bent up and fell down.
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Look on the bright side... At least it wasn't solid glass :D
 
dauer said:
I did something like that once, at a bbq at my uncle's. Everyone was outside and I was inside. Someone outside called my name and I ran straight through the screen door. It didn't leave a hole in the shape of my body like in cartoons, just got pretty bent up and fell down.
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I did that at my best friend's birthday party when I was a kid. LOL It is funny in retrospect but at the time I felt horrible that I ruined their screen door. I was only about 9, so I didn't realize screen doors are pretty cheap.
 
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