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Defining Spirit and Spiritual
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seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
Sorry, I can't do that for you.As I cannot think of any you will have to enlighten me
Vajradhara
One of Many
Sorry, I can't do that for you.
i think he meant provide an example of "instances that could not be attributed by any possible means to one's own mind?"
metta,
~v
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
I can't search his mind for him.
Ciel
in essence
Vajradhara
One of Many
he's asking for you to provide an example of a phenomena that you cannot cannot explain with your mind. i seriously doubt that he was asking for you to bequeath enlightenment or attempt mind reading.
metta,
~v
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
That's not what I meant.
he's asking for you to provide an example of a phenomena that you cannot cannot explain with your mind. i seriously doubt that he was asking for you to bequeath enlightenment or attempt mind reading.
metta,
~v
I don't know what his experiences are, and which ones he has examined and questioned, which ones he has ignored, and which ones (if any) he simply dismissed, chalking them up to delusion, alcohol, or whatever. I don't know how his awareness operates. I don't know his parameters for seaching his mind, and what biases these parameters might contain.
Someone might have an usual experience, and search out an explanation for it, while another person might simply ignore the unusual experience if they experienced it. For instance, several people who witness the same thing will have different accounts of it, in accordance to their state of awareness and their parameters for recall. Some people might be able to give a detailed description of it, while others might not have even been aware of it at all, even though they were looking right at it.
Here's an example:
DOTHETEST
If several people witnessed the depiction in the above video, but only one person saw the moonwalking bear, how could that person convince the others without a video? Was the moonwalking bear just a product of that person's mind? The witnesses who were not aware of the bear might think so. The person who saw the bear could consider the guy holding carrying a bear costume as possible evidence, and even ask that person if they were moonwalking through the scene wearing the bear costume. This would provide some assurance to that person that the moonwalking bear was not a product of that person's mind. However, that really would not do much to help the other witnesses who were not aware of the moonwalking bear to see it.
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Tao_Equus
Guest
Sorry, I can't do that for you.
Has he lost it?
- c -
Chuckle chuckle, shall i make it clear, for Ceil at least, you have to have something, perhaps by 'find', to be able to then lose it. I'm not at all sure I have 'found' it yet. that thing called mind. At no point did I choose to inhabit the person I am, it was beyond my control and a definite dereliction of duty of any higher being that may have been charged with keeping everything deified here at CR. That said....
SG, you threw down a statement, I'm loathe to let you attempt to wriggle free. If I was to come to someone here in a quest for 'enlightenment' then you would be on my shortlist. However that is not, as you well know, what I meant. Please have the good grace to meet me half way. Answer the bleeding question
buckets of love
tao
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
Did you see the moonwalking bear the first time through?Chuckle chuckle, shall i make it clear, for Ceil at least, you have to have something, perhaps by 'find', to be able to then lose it. I'm not at all sure I have 'found' it yet. that thing called mind. At no point did I choose to inhabit the person I am, it was beyond my control and a definite dereliction of duty of any higher being that may have been charged with keeping everything deified here at CR. That said....
SG, you threw down a statement, I'm loathe to let you attempt to wriggle free. If I was to come to someone here in a quest for 'enlightenment' then you would be on my shortlist. However that is not, as you well know, what I meant. Please have the good grace to meet me half way. Answer the bleeding question
buckets of love
tao
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Tao_Equus
Guest
On this occasion yes. But only because I was primed by prior experience on similar tests. Which goes to prove my point.....
You can blame my thoughts, you can infer I drink too much, that I am in any way or in every way incapable of putting together a valid point of view. But is that true, or are you just blaming me for the gaps in your logic?
tao
P.S. You have still not answered my previous request for an example where mind can be ruled out.
Vajradhara
One of Many
Namaste seattlegal,
thank you for the post.
it is, however, what you said.
nobody is suggesting that you do. where did that even come from? it is quite clear that he is asking *you* to given an example from *your* life. he was not asking you to enlighten him as in awaken his spiritual awareness and i think that you probably know that. he was not asking you to read his mind and i think that you probably know that, too.
he was asking for an example of what you suggested. given the rather unusual series of responses i'd be keen for an example as well
metta,
~v
thank you for the post.
it is, however, what you said.
nobody is suggesting that you do. where did that even come from? it is quite clear that he is asking *you* to given an example from *your* life. he was not asking you to enlighten him as in awaken his spiritual awareness and i think that you probably know that. he was not asking you to read his mind and i think that you probably know that, too.
he was asking for an example of what you suggested. given the rather unusual series of responses i'd be keen for an example as well
metta,
~v
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
No, I'm blaming myself for my lack of communication skills, but I'm working on it.
Tao, would you agree that not noticing the moonwalking bear is a result of the functioning of the mind, given the video evidence that there was, indeed, a moonwalking bear?
Without the video evidence, all the people who didn't notice the moonwalking bear might very well conclude that the person who did notice the unlikely incidence of a moonwalking bear appearing in the middle of a ball game to be delusional.
However, the video shows that the bear was not the product of the person's mind who noticed it. Rather, the video highlights that our minds screen out much of reality from our awareness. Without the video evidence, how would the person who noticed the bear convince the others of its existence?
If such a mundane, material thing like a moonwalking bear can go unnoticed by so many, and many need video evidence to convince them of its existence, how would you present convincing evidence of something that many peoples' minds screen out from their awareness that cannot be captured on video? If spirit is something that you cannot hold if you try to grasp it, video or other direct material evidence would rule it out as being mundane, rather than spiritual. Therefore, I cannot give you hard evidence of my spiritual experiences. I might be able to describe them, and perhaps outline some of the indirect evidence I found that convinced me it couldn't be just a product of my mind, but that wouldn't help you to notice spiritual things for yourself if you didn't want to.
What can you do other than prompt someone to look for it and experience it themselves?
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
Namaste seattlegal,
thank you for the post.
it is, however, what you said.
nobody is suggesting that you do. where did that even come from? it is quite clear that he is asking *you* to given an example from *your* life. he was not asking you to enlighten him as in awaken his spiritual awareness and i think that you probably know that. he was not asking you to read his mind and i think that you probably know that, too.
he was asking for an example of what you suggested. given the rather unusual series of responses i'd be keen for an example as well
metta,
~v
I have posted about my strange experiences during childbirth here before. (I'm not sure how much detail I went into, however.)
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Tao_Equus
Guest
No, I'm blaming myself for my lack of communication skills, but I'm working on it.
Tao, would you agree that not noticing the moonwalking bear is a result of the functioning of the mind, given the video evidence that there was, indeed, a moonwalking bear?
Without the video evidence, all the people who didn't notice the moonwalking bear might very well conclude that the person who did notice the unlikely incidence of a moonwalking bear appearing in the middle of a ball game to be delusional.
However, the video shows that the bear was not the product of the person's mind who noticed it. Rather, the video highlights that our minds screen out much of reality from our awareness. Without the video evidence, how would the person who noticed the bear convince the others of its existence?
If such a mundane, material thing like a moonwalking bear can go unnoticed by so many, and many need video evidence to convince them of its existence, how would you present convincing evidence of something that many peoples' minds screen out from their awareness that cannot be captured on video? If spirit is something that you cannot hold if you try to grasp it, video or other direct material evidence would rule it out as being mundane, rather than spiritual. Therefore, I cannot give you hard evidence of my spiritual experiences. I might be able to describe them, and perhaps outline some of the indirect evidence I found that convinced me it couldn't be just a product of my mind, but that wouldn't help you to notice spiritual things for yourself if you didn't want to.
What can you do other than prompt someone to look for it and experience it themselves?
I do understand what you are saying but my original post here uses the same logic, that the senses cannot be trusted, to state that since 'spiritual feelings' are wholly within the mind they can be trusted even less. The brain invents what it requires, or more precisely, what it has been conditioned to require. It is that simple. If you want to believe there is truth in spiritual feelings your brain will oblige you. I have had what I believe people would describe as spiritual experiences. To me they are a natural product of mind. They have no meaning outside of mind. Like a dream of flying they are the product of the minds inventiveness. But to turn it round and try to say that I cannot experience it because I am somehow closed to it is simply not true. I have experienced it and searched long for answers that made sense of them. I am not closed to it, I just understand it, I believe, for what it is.
tao
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
The very same logic that you called 'full of gaps' just a few short posts back?
I think the example of the moonwalking bear shows that people don't trust their senses and will screen out sensory information from their awareness that they might view as being 'unexpected,' even if the information is accurate. Is that the senses' fault, or is it the mind's fault?
I said that spirit cannot be grasped and held.
I would say that this would also apply to 'blinders' of our awareness. My spiritual experiences came from out of the blue--without any anticipation from my mind. If I had anticipated these experiences, I could easily chalk them up to being a product of my mind. I wasn't raised in any religious tradition, so I can't say I was 'conditioned' to experience them. (Unless you count the Zen practice that my Sen-sei conditioned me in--without teaching me any of the vocabulary, much less the theory, behind it. Attributing my experiences to my being unknowingly conditioned in Zen would be throwing the idea of conditioned expectation out the window.)
Mine have had meaning and applications relating to things both inside and outside of my mind.
I didn't say you cannot experience it. I said you might be screening it out of your awareness, just as many people screen the more mundane moonwalking bear out of their awareness.
What have you experienced that you have explained away as a product of your mind? I seem to have difficulty explaining some of mine away.
So, you haven't had any unexpected, unexplained experiences?
T
Tao_Equus
Guest
The problem here is that it appears you have a limited understanding of why people miss the apparently obvious moonwalker. The brain is not just screening out sensory information, it is filling in the background with an image stored in its memory. Because the viewer is prompted to devote brain use to counting it screens out that which is not required to fulfil that task yes, but it also produces a false image from memory. The vast bulk of what we think we see is stored memory images. The brain works by noticing what has changed since its last memory image, if nothing has changed it does not create a new image but gives us the memory. If something has changed it incorporates that into its stored image. There have been numerous experiments such as that one that show quite clearly, we cannot believe our eyes.The very same logic that you called 'full of gaps' just a few short posts back?
I think the example of the moonwalking bear shows that people don't trust their senses and will screen out sensory information from their awareness that they might view as being 'unexpected,' even if the information is accurate. Is that the senses' fault, or is it the mind's fault?
*reaches for and grasps bottle of Ardbeg, pours a generous measure and passes it to SG
sorry but the cultural conditioning to accept spiritual experience is endemic and you cannot escape it.
I would still be interested to know what you mean by 'outside' of mind.
Out of body experiences, deja vu visions, premonitions ( visual and mental ), seeing ghosts, feelings of connectedness and more. All of them were unexpected and inexplicable if I was to ignore the human minds capacity for invention. They all had a root in my mind though and I do not believe any of them to be evidence of anything beyond the workings of my own mind. I could be wrong of course, but the explanation I give makes the most sense to me.
tao
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
Hmm, maybe my Zen conditioning did have something to do with my noticing 'spiritual things.' 'Being in the moment is often stressed.'
Would you suspect that those who do not follow this 'prescribed method' of screening out the background are often labelled as ADHD?
Actually, my observations suggest that those who notice such things are increasingly labelled as being ill. Look at the dramatic increase in the number of people being given psychiatric drugs. (Often for no other reason than to make a profit from the drugs.)
Relating to others, not just myself.
Whoa! All of these things originated from yourself, totally independent of anything else?
T
Tao_Equus
Guest
Perhaps some mental illnesses are caused by over processing of the brains input senses though I am not sure about ADHD. That in particular in my opinion is one of the most over-diagnosed conditions often deliberately so by doctors making tidy bonuses for prescribing just as you imply.
Mental illness, especially the schizophrenia class, are however more likely the result of over activity in the creative portions of the brain.
In studies of the brain during religious/spiritual action there is a definitive dissociation from reality of the subject:
The two observed a decreased level of activity particularly in the orientation association area (OAA) of the brain, the part of the brain responsible for enabling people to distinguish between themselves and objects in the outside world.
…And this is your brain on prayers « Psychology in the News
The article goes on to make the claim that this is evidence that 'God' is hardwired into the human brain but that is wholly misleading. Quite the contrary, it suggests that spiritual thoughts are a product of imagination.
Mass hysteria is a well documented phenomena. That people can share an experience does not prevent it being a product of mind.
Not completely. I too am subject to persuasions of culture, learning and experience.Whoa! All of these things originated from yourself, totally independent of anything else?
tao
Netti-Netti
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Buddhist epistemology would suggest that our experience is generally all a product of the mind. Consistent therewith, psychological science has shown that our emotions are largely dependent on our thinking. Our cognitions shape our emotional states. The maketing/advertising industry manipulates the "feel good" emotions by means of information that can be incorporated in the thought process of prospective buyers for various products and wares.
We also have deepseated biases that affect out appraisal of situations and our personal assessment of our potential to influence the world around us. When asked to work a totaly meaningless task and given positive feedback on a random schedule, the average person believes the feedback they've received reflects on their actions. In other words, people equate randomness with meaningful success and actually make ability attributions to explain their perceived success. This so-called self-serving bias has been replicated over and over again.
My point is simply this: why do you single out religious thought in particular as evidence of the capacity to delude oneself? Humans are walking around in their foolish fantasies pretty much all the time. It's the nature of the mind, isn't it?
The criteria for realism and reasonableness you are applying to religious matters can be applied across the board. For whatever reason, your agenda is to look at religion as a source of proof that people are crazy fools even though you can see evidence of that everywhere you look. Such selectivity toward the evidence is not very scientific of you, is it?
T
Tao_Equus
Guest
My point is simply this: why do you single out religious thought in particular as evidence of the capacity to delude oneself? Humans are walking around in their foolish fantasies pretty much all the time. It's the nature of the mind, isn't it?
The criteria for realism and reasonableness you are applying to religious matters can be applied across the board. For whatever reason, your agenda is to look at religion as a source of proof that people are crazy fools even though you can see evidence of that everywhere you look. Such selectivity toward the evidence is not very scientific of you, is it?
I do not single religion out except in so much that this thread has a subject heading to which I responded. And I am not a scientist.
tao