Temptations...

[Eclectic Mystic]

Dream, please don't assume the hostilities are towards you. You have no idea what other people have put me through.

I have the ability to discern that bashing my face with a hammer would be a mistake. If other sins are purposeful and if we have the ability to discern so accurately what sin is, then why do people sin? Something just doesn't add up.

 

[Eclectic Mystic]

To me the concept of "wanting to do it my way" suggests otherwise. People do know they are sins and that is exactly why they value them.

This is an example of advocating the notion that people even have an incentive to be separate from God in the first place.

 

[GlorytoGod]

Just to clarify

James 4:7 (New International Version)

Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

This is the word of God !

it is the truth

so be confident

 

[Tao_Equus]

Hey, I admit it. I have a will of my own, and I'm a sinner. I can use my will to resist the temptation to sin, although sometimes I don't, usually due to my misunderstanding the situation. So, I can be weak-willed and weak-minded (human) at times. (Something I need to continually work on...)

I can understand that, I too sometimes have to work quite hard to get the best out of sin. Sometimes it can take considerable expense to sin in style. And sometimes its not even worth all the effort. But at the end of the day the sins I love to indulge are usually worth it So keep working on them


ta

 

[seattlegal]

I can understand that, I too sometimes have to work quite hard to get the best out of sin. Sometimes it can take considerable expense to sin in style. And sometimes its not even worth all the effort. But at the end of the day the sins I love to indulge are usually worth it So keep working on them


ta

The distractions are worth distracting you from the important things? Hmm, it has been said that the tao is found 'without desire...' {Tao Te Ching 1,} so your argument might have some merit...
Regarding style and temptations vs. substance:

Tao Te Ching 35
To him who holds in his hands the Great Image (of the invisible
Tao), the whole world repairs. Men resort to him, and receive no
hurt, but (find) rest, peace, and the feeling of ease.

Music and dainties {read: temptations--sg} will make the passing guest stop (for a time). {read: temporary in nature, distractions--sg}
But though the Tao as it comes from the mouth, seems insipid and has
no flavour, though it seems not worth being looked at or listened to,
the use of it is inexhaustible. {read: 'without desire it is found..."--sg}
​

 

[nightsoul]

Sorry, i'm new here. Please define sin.

 

[Dream]

Dream, please don't assume the hostilities are towards you. You have no idea what other people have put me through.

Ok. Sorry about that. The flutter of a butterfly and it would have been me putting the screws to you sometime in the past. Fortunately, things never aligned for me that way.

Sorry, i'm new here. Please define sin.

Sin is a Christian word. It is a combination translation both of words and of abstract ideas from Hebrew culture, and it is confusing partly for that reason. Sin can refer to ritual uncleanness, accidental mistakes, unwise actions, hateful activity and more, although its usually either talking about ritual uncleanness or wrongful activity. You have to examine the context when reading Christian letters or the Gospels if you want to be sure what kind of 'Sin' you're talking about.

I have the ability to discern that bashing my face with a hammer would be a mistake. If other sins are purposeful and if we have the ability to discern so accurately what sin is, then why do people sin? Something just doesn't add up.

We're talking about a Christian word and I'm a Christian fundamentalist specialist trying to post in a generic Abrahamic section! I don't represent all Abrahamic points of view or even all Christian ones, but I try to honor all. To me it seems the Pauline explanation is that sin was planted within man to demonstrate its nature, differentiate it from the human soul, and to also condemn it. Once the demonstration is complete, the sin will be removed from humanity and from the world. This is the best Christian explanation I can find of why people make evil choices and why there is trouble in the world.

Romans 7:13 Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, working death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure.

Romans 7:20-24 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me. So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inmost self, but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin which dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?

Romans 8:3-4 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

 

[Tao_Equus]

The distractions are worth distracting you from the important things?

Well here we enter another huge ballpark.. what is or is not "important"? Surely you can only define importance for yourself and those an action may immediately affect? Some of my sins are solitary, only affecting me, my favourites are not but always involve willing and enthusiastic accomplice(s). So where is the 'distraction' ?, surely not to sin would be the distraction? Of course I do not view my 'sins' as sins but pleasure seeking. It is the pressure to conform to some stereotype that would make them sins. Since I have no desire to conform and do not give a hoot about what some puritan might think of my behaviour there is no distraction and I am indulging in what is important. Tao encourages taking the path of least resistance and I do not have a problem with that. I am perfectly happy not to resist the temptation of pleasure I find in those sins I enjoy.

tao

 

[seattlegal]

Well here we enter another huge ballpark.. what is or is not "important"? Surely you can only define importance for yourself and those an action may immediately affect? Some of my sins are solitary, only affecting me, my favourites are not but always involve willing and enthusiastic accomplice(s). So where is the 'distraction' ?, surely not to sin would be the distraction? Of course I do not view my 'sins' as sins but pleasure seeking. It is the pressure to conform to some stereotype that would make them sins. Since I have no desire to conform and do not give a hoot about what some puritan might think of my behaviour there is no distraction and I am indulging in what is important. Tao encourages taking the path of least resistance and I do not have a problem with that. I am perfectly happy not to resist the temptation of pleasure I find in those sins I enjoy.

tao

Actually, the Tao is not about the path of least resistance, it is about doing nothing with a purpose:

48

He who devotes himself to learning (seeks) from day to day to
increase (his knowledge); he who devotes himself to the Tao (seeks)
from day to day to diminish (his doing).

He diminishes it and again diminishes it, till he arrives at doing
nothing (on purpose). Having arrived at this point of non-action,
there is nothing which he does not do.

He who gets as his own all under heaven does so by giving himself
no trouble (with that end). If one take trouble (with that end), he
is not equal to getting as his own all under heaven.​

Self-control can be easy or it can be difficult. The difficulty comes from ourselves.

I probably should add some Abrahamic commentary on this, since this is the Abrahamic section. {Please forgive me my sin. }

Regarding the source of difficulties we have with self-control:

James 2
12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.​

Regarding the vanity (distraction) of striving after pleasure:
Ecclesiastes 2
I would recommend the entire book of Ecclesiastes!

 

[seattlegal]

Sorry, i'm new here. Please define sin.

Welcome to IO, nightsoul.
Sin means 'missing the mark.' The first sin mentioned in the bible involved not resisting temptation. (Adam and Eve and the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.)

 

[Netti-Netti]

Sin is a Christian word.

From the OT,

If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
​

~Genesis 4:7

Sin can refer to ritual uncleanness, accidental mistakes, unwise actions, hateful activity and more, although its usually either talking about ritual uncleanness or wrongful activity.

I think it's about wrong attitude - namely, disrespect for the L-rd.

 

[nightsoul]

Thank you for the welcome, seattlegal. "Missing the mark" is the concept of sin i'm most familiar with, being jewish (post-denominational variety). i've been thinking a lot about it since we're coming out of the High Holy Days, all about atonement...or "at-one-ment" as our rabbi says.
i'm not so familiar with thinking about sin in terms of resisting temptation. For me it's more along the lines of: first, having the awareness of choice and not just reacting out of habit, and second, then choosing that which brings you closer to G-d.

 

[nightsoul]

Tao_Equus: Of course I do not view my 'sins' as sins but pleasure seeking.



i couldn't agree more, Tao. Only a G-d who delights in pleasure would create all those intricate nerve-endings.

 

[Tao_Equus]

Tao_Equus: Of course I do not view my 'sins' as sins but pleasure seeking.



i couldn't agree more, Tao. Only a G-d who delights in pleasure would create all those intricate nerve-endings.

Hallelujah!!

 

[Netti-Netti]

"Missing the mark" is the concept of sin i'm most familiar with, being jewish (post-denominational variety).

Howdy Nightsoul,

Based on this, I gather there are other (Jewish) concepts?

 

[seattlegal]

Thank you for the welcome, seattlegal. "Missing the mark" is the concept of sin i'm most familiar with, being jewish (post-denominational variety). i've been thinking a lot about it since we're coming out of the High Holy Days, all about atonement...or "at-one-ment" as our rabbi says.
i'm not so familiar with thinking about sin in terms of resisting temptation. For me it's more along the lines of: first, having the awareness of choice and not just reacting out of habit, and second, then choosing that which brings you closer to G-d.

Do you have a different term to distinguish (unknowingly) reacting out of established bad habits and knowingly and willfully establishing a new bad habit? (rebellion?)

 

[nightsoul]

Hi Netti-Netti and Seattlegal,


i guess the easiest place to start would be contrasting (some) Jewish ideas of sin with (some) Christian ones. Please understand that i'm going to be making generalizations for the purpose of discussion based on my understanding of the main themes of both religions and i apologize in advance for any unintentional offense.


Jewish thought, Adam and Eve notwithstanding, doesn't include a belief in “original sin,” and people are not thought to be “born sinners”. Rather, people are born with a “pure soul” and also with both an inclination toward “good,” and an inclination toward “evil.” (“Listen to the angels of your better nature,” our rabbi tells us.)


The Jewish idea of sin is also not based on the idea of punishment and reward, in this life or the afterlife. In contrast with modern formulations of “human rights,” Jews consider their relationship with G-d to be based in “human responsibilities.” We're expected to do our best with what we're given, to do “good” for the sake of doing good, and in fact there are some lines of thought that suggest that focusing on the idea of reward and punishment actually taints one's “good” with selfish motives.


i think there's a nice correlation here with your statement, Netti-Netti:

"I think it's about wrong attitude - namely, disrespect for the L-rd" because, Jewish thought recognizes both “crimes” (violations of human rights) and “sins,” (violations of “the obligation placed on us by virtue of the Divine command requiring us to behave in a way that befits the image of G-d in which we were made”). Parashat VaYelekh - Dr. Meir Seidler


To answer your question more directly:
“Chet” is the often-quoted archery term meaning “missing the mark:” one tries to do good, but falls short or goes a bit astray. Here the sin is not so much “doing evil” as “missing” the opportunity to “do good.”
“Aveira” means “crossing the line,” a fully-conscious choice, and considered more grievous.
“Avon,” or “abomination,” most heinous of all, would include idolatry and murder.
Hope this opens a fruitful dialog.

night

 

[nightsoul]

Hi Netti-Netti and Seattlegal,


i guess the easiest place to start would be contrasting (some) Jewish ideas of sin with (some) Christian ones. Please understand that i'm going to be making generalizations for the purpose of discussion based on my understanding of the main themes of both religions and i apologize in advance for any unintentional offense.


Jewish thought, Adam and Eve notwithstanding, doesn't include a belief in “original sin,” and people are not thought to be “born sinners”. Rather, people are born with a “pure soul” and also with both an inclination toward “good,” and an inclination toward “evil.” (“Listen to the angels of your better nature,” our rabbi tells us.)


The Jewish idea of sin is also not based on the idea of punishment and reward, in this life or the afterlife. In contrast with modern formulations of “human rights,” Jews consider their relationship with G-d to be based in “human responsibilities.” We're expected to do our best with what we're given, to do “good” for the sake of doing good, and in fact there are some lines of thought that suggest that focusing on the idea of reward and punishment actually taints one's “good” with selfish motives.

i think there's a nice correlation here with your statement, Netti-Netti: "...it's about wrong attitude - namely, disrespect for the L-rd" because, Jewish thought recognizes both “crimes” (violations of human rights) and “sins,” (violations of “the obligation placed on us by virtue of the Divine command requiring us to behave in a way that befits the image of G-d in which we were made”).


To answer your question more directly:
“Chet” is the often-quoted archery term meaning “missing the mark:” one tries to do good, but falls short or goes a bit astray. Here the sin is not so much “doing evil” as “missing” the opportunity to “do good.”
“Aveira” means “crossing the line,” a fully-conscious choice, and considered more grievous.
“Avon,” or “abomination,” most heinous of all, would include idolatry and murder.
Hope this opens a fruitful dialog.
night

 

[seattlegal]

Hi Netti-Netti and Seattlegal,


To answer your question more directly:
“Chet” is the often-quoted archery term meaning “missing the mark:” one tries to do good, but falls short or goes a bit astray. Here the sin is not so much “doing evil” as “missing” the opportunity to “do good.”
“Aveira” means “crossing the line,” a fully-conscious choice, and considered more grievous.
“Avon,” or “abomination,” most heinous of all, would include idolatry and murder.
Hope this opens a fruitful dialog.
night

Thank you, nightsoul. I started looking for Hebrew words for 'sin,' and also came acrossed these:

• pesha` (Strong's H6588)
  transgression, rebellion, tresspass, sin
• 'asham (Strong's H817) and 'ashmah (Strong's H819)
  guiltiness, guilt, offense, sin, wrong-doing, tresspass, fault
• shagag (Strong's H7683) and shagah (Strong's H7686) which can have many meanings:
  1) to go astray, stray, err
  a) (Qal)
  1) to err, stray
  2) to swerve, meander, reel, roll, be intoxicated, err (in drunkenness)
  3) to go astray (morally)
  4) to commit sin of ignorance or inadvertence, err (ignorantly)
  b) (Hiphil)
  1) to lead astray
  2) to lead astray, mislead (mentally)
  3) to lead astray (morally)
  and translated as: err 12, ravished 2, wander 3, deceiver 1, cause to go astray 1, sin through ignorance 2, go astray 2, deceived 2, flesh 1

I can see why you asked for sin to be defined.

 

[Dream]

“Chet” is the often-quoted archery term meaning “missing the mark:” one tries to do good, but falls short or goes a bit astray. Here the sin is not so much “doing evil” as “missing” the opportunity to “do good.”
“Aveira” means “crossing the line,” a fully-conscious choice, and considered more grievous.
“Avon,” or “abomination,” most heinous of all, would include idolatry and murder.

Under these definitions 'fall short of the glory' probably refers to a chet, but you'd never know it from the Greek. Tracing these little-big factoids is like 10% inspiration and 90% perspiration. I see a need for a reference tool.