Some Questions

Discussion in 'Christianity' started by wil, Sep 3, 2008.

  1. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    Why if the virgin birth and resurection are so important, cornerstones of Christianity, why did Paul never mention either?

    Nor did the author of Matthew, who most likely read the letters circulating from Paul but felt no need to add that to the story of Jesus's life.

    And the three days. If I wanted to describe something that was thirty-six hours later...would I ever say 3 days?
     
  2. seattlegal

    seattlegal Why do cows say mu?

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    :confused:
    1 Corinthians 15:1-19
    1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
    3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. 8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.
    9 For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. 11 Therefore, whether it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

    12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. 14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. 15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise. 16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.

    Romans 1:1-6
    1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God 2 which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures, 3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, 4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead. 5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name, 6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;

    Romans 6:1-9
    1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
    5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him.​
    There are many more examples of this in the Pauline scriptures about this
    here.

    Matt 1 describes the virgin birth.
    Matt 28 describes the resurrection, along with a blurb in Matt 27:53.

    What are you on about here, wil?
     
  3. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    Friday afternoon through Sunday morning does not equal 72 hours (or three, twenty four hour days), if I haven't missed my mark...
     
  4. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Not sure I follow you here, wil.

    I noted the discrepency between the memorial observance (commonly called Easter) and the Biblical narrative long ago, but the story seemed pretty clear to me that Jesus was supposed to have spent three *nights* in the tomb. Given that he "gave up the ghost" likely around 3pm on a Thursday afternoon, quickly buried in anticipation of the High Sabbath leading to Passover prior to sundown Thursday evening, and the empty tomb being found by Mary and crew on the morning of the first day of the week Sunday.

    Let us not forget, the *Jewish/Biblical day* is reckoned from sundown; not midnight, not sunrise. So 36 hours is a bit too short of a time span. Also, the *High Sabbath* can fall on any day of the week (depending on Passover), it is not limited to Friday night-Saturday day.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2008
  5. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    He does Wil, you must have missed it ... ?

    But to answer your question in the broader sense, he tells you why himself:
    "And I, brethren, could not speak to you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal. As unto little ones in Christ. I gave you milk to drink, not meat: for you were not able as yet. But neither indeed are you now able: for you are yet carnal."
    1 Corinthians 3:2

    As noted elsewhere, Scripture comprises the kerygma — the public preaching — and didache — catechetical instruction. Kerygma is milk, and didache is meat.

    But let's get back to Paul —
    "Now if Christ be preached, that he arose again from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen again. And if Christ be not risen again, then is our preaching vain: and your faith is also vain."
    1 Corinthians 15:12-14

    So, as a Tiberman, I do wonder along with the tentmaker from Tarsus, if the Resurrection is absolutely central to the teaching, why would one question it? It's a take it or leave it question, it's not open to empirical enquiry.

    And if one doesn't believe in it, why bother calling oneself a Christian at all?

    Thomas
     
  6. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    Obviously confused.
    Again I got my story wrong? I thought Thursday was the foot washing, Friday he carried the crossbeam thru town and was crucified.

    It's the and three days later he rose thing that confuses me. If it were Friday and I said I'll meet you back here in three days...It would be Monday. Now if your Thursday is correct all this is mute.

    That would be in the tomb before sundown on Friday, and out before sunup on Sunday... Friday night and Saturday night (2 nights) less than 40 hours? Anyone have any other reckoning?
     
  7. seattlegal

    seattlegal Why do cows say mu?

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    Paul says on the third day, not necessarily 3 full days.
    1 Cor 15:3-4
    For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,​
    The 'zero hour' would be the 'first day,' after sunset would be the beginning of the 'second day,' and the next sunset would be the beginning of the 'third day.' This would entail 2 nights.
     
  8. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    Ok slowly in an attempt to get my foot out of my mouth can I correct my mistake of the first post...Mark, I meant Mark not mentioning resurection and virgin birth, not Matthew.

    What I am getting on about is seeing when this occurred. Now Mark was written the think 64-70 and Corinthians 57, Matthew as early as 85 and Luke and John not till 90?

    So my question is, what scripture was Paul referring to?
     
  9. earl

    earl ?

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    Just speaking for me personally, while I have no problem seeing a resurection of some sort as a literal historical event, my association to it and why it's important is that it denotes that what Christ was and preached transcended the material, form and even the temporality of mortality. "I am with you always.":) Now, as to the virign birth-not so important in my scheme of things.;) earl
     
  10. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    In the traditional observance, yes. But don't forget Constantine made a point of distancing from Jewish observances, which helps explain the tradition as we have it today. It not about accuracy...its about remembering.

    Right. But again, its about remembering.

    Check with Dauer, BB or any preferred Jewish source...the Jewish "day" begins at sundown, at least in Biblical times. So three "days" in the tomb is actually three nights, the High Sabbath is not to be confused with a stock and standard Sabbath (the whole trial and execution was hurried in preparation for the High Sabbath and Passover), and the tomb was found empty sometime before dawn on the third day. Jesus was sacrificed and gave up the ghost at about the same time the Passover lambs were being slaughtered.
     
  11. Ahanu

    Ahanu Well-Known Member

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    Yes, Paul did teach resurrection, but the ultimate question in 1 Corinthians 15 is about how the resurrection happens:

    "But someone will ask, 'How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?'"
    (1 Corinthians 15.35)

    Paul answers these questions in 1 Corinthians 15, but his followers disagree about his answer. Compare Origen and Tertullian as an example. The Corinthians seemed so confused about it the Christians had to invent a third letter to the Corinthians. They probably knew Christ's body continued to rot in the grave; therefore, their anxiety grew to such an extent that some said:

    "There is no resurrection of the dead."
     
  12. DeiGratia

    DeiGratia New Member

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    Why if the virgin birth and resurection are so important, cornerstones of Christianity, why did Paul never mention either?
    ______

    Wil, I consider the resurrection to be crucial to the Christ's divinity, but I echo your sentiment about the virgin birth.

    If Jesus' mother Mary, and his brother James too, knew he was the Son of God — because of how he was conceived and the divine messages from the angel — and he is on God's mission, how do we make out Mark 3:21?

    When His own people heard of this, they went out to take custody of Him; for they were saying, “He has lost His senses.” ~ New American Standard Bible

    The verse indicates that the family thought Jesus was out of his mind, and 31-35 says that they came seeking him, presumably to take him home, and Jesus' reply to the family is almost alluding they're not his family, but his followers are. (Is this because Jesus felt his family didn't understand the importance of his mission and tried to stop him ...?)


    Then His mother and His brothers arrived, and standing outside they sent word to Him and called Him. A crowd was sitting around Him, and they said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are outside looking for You.” Answering them, He said, “Who are My mother and My brothers?” Looking about at those who were sitting around Him, He said, “Behold My mother and My brothers! For whoever does the will of God, he is My brother and sister and mother.”

    ... or am I reading it wrong?

    I understand James became a follower after Jesus' death. Therefore I infer the resurrection did happen, and that convinced James.
     
  13. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    I think you both miss the point. The Virgin Birth is crucial to our humanity, not to His divinity.

    I have always wondered why, if Joseph went to Bethlehem to be registered in his home city, he never stayed with his family?

    Of course it's pure speculation, but my own view is that the scandal of his wife's pregnancy meant that his family said, 'you're a fool, she's leading you by the nose, and I'll not have her under my roof'. But that's me ...

    Anyway ...

    There is a progression in the text. Up to this point, Our Lord is preaching in the temple, performing miracles, and making a reputation. He's seen as so dangerous the Pharisees are talking to the Herodians about how they might bring Him down. Meanwhile He's attracting followers from the city and the country, and from far and wide.

    So far, so good, neither His friends nor His family seem to have a problem with that. But then He calls the twelve apart from the rest (3:14) and when His friends and family hear of that, that's when FOMO kicks in (3:21), and He's accused of madness, and worse ...

    But wait a moment ... this is just not pettiness.

    There's is a common and popular misconception today that Jesus never proclaimed His divinity. I argue one can only make that claim if one ignores how His words and deeds would be perceived by His audience.

    Our Lord called the twelve, "And he gave them power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils" (v15), now here's a telling point. In the history of the Jews, there have been occasions of miracles and wonders worked by the servants of God, but they've never, I believe, been known to confer that 'power', which is in this context is a divine power, on others. The wonder workers of the Hebrew Scriptures never claim their power as their own, nor were they perceived as such, the Hebrew prophet is akin to the Hellenic oracle in that regard, both are instruments, they are not authorities in their own right.

    But here we have Jesus conferring a divine authority, on others, to preach and work miracles in His name. The implication is blatant.

    And His Jewish audience saw it, without any shadow of a doubt, as a direct claim to Divinity. And they responded accordingly: His friends thought He had gone mad, His family wanted to take Him into their care.

    It is quite likely that His mother and His family, those who followed Him, assumed Him to be a prophet. But this was something utterly different, and went way beyond prophecy. Good grief, He's instituting a priesthood, plain as day!

    His friends, His family, His mother? Our Lord dealt with them with calm and reason (v33-35) nothing untoward there. Nothing to get steamed up about, it's quite a sensible answer really.

    But let's backtrack:
    "Amen I say to you, that all sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and the blasphemies wherewith they shall blaspheme: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost, shall never have forgiveness, but shall be guilty of an everlasting sin. Because they said: He hath an unclean spirit" (v28-29).

    This is some serious condemnation. This is someone, who's mission is to heal, declaring there are certain sins that are 'beyond redemption'! Why? Because He's angry. Why? Because His enemies are saying He performs His miracles not by the will (power) of God, by the power of the devil. That the words that trip so movingly off His tongue are the words of the Father of Lies ... He is seething... they are denying the Love of God, for that what the Holy Ghost is, the hagios pneuma, the 'spirit' which rises from the 'soul' of God Himself, and because God is perfect, then the Divine pneuma is God, and yet the Holy Ghost is never spoken of, by Him, in an impersonal sense.

    In some mysterious way, there is Father, there is Son and there is Holy Ghost, and each is entirely His own Person, His own distinct being, has His own distinct Act, and yet all are one. All are God.

    This is a clear teaching of His own divinity, and of the Trinity.

    He need not have done this. He disposes of their argument with simple logic: 'How can Satan cast out Satan?' (v23). No need to bring God into it. But He then goes on to excoriate them for their malevolent sophistry, because it's evident that they would broadcast any lie, concoct any story, rather than confront the evidence of their own ears and eyes ... and this is why they are damned, because they simply refuse to let the light into their souls, and moreover are busy seeking to extinguish that light in the souls of others, by undermining their faith with lies.

    'Gentle Jesus, meek and mild'? Here is someone else altogether.
     
  14. DeiGratia

    DeiGratia New Member

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    Thomas, thank you for your reply.
    Though I need to go over your post a few more times to fully follow it, one question ... do you not object to the view James converted after Jesus' death? If you do go along with this view, why do you think Mary or Jesus failed to convince James of His divinity and mission while He was alive?

    >>'Gentle Jesus, meek and mild'? Here is someone else altogether.

    I've never pictured Jesus as meek and mild ... The image I have of Him is generous and loving, also collected but not meek ... I imagine there was always a fire in the core of His heart as described in John 2:17
     
  15. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    No.

    Because I don't think anyone, including His mother, knew quite who or what they were dealing with.

    Assuming the Virgin Birth to be true, then Mary would have known that 'something' was going on, but that she was the Theotokos, the God-Bearer, she might well have a vague idea of what that meant, but I think to assume that she knew the full implication of the Incarnation is asking too much of her.

    Mary saw herself as 'the handmaid of the Lord' (Luke 1:38), and the Canticle of Mary (Luke 1:46-55) is a beautiful piece of prose, which speaks as much of the faith of Israel as it does her own place in the unfolding of salvation..

    The question of who knew what about whom is one that theologians can dispute ad infinitum ...

    ... but it seems to me that for His family and His followers, He was a nightmare! I don't think Jesus walked up to people and said 'Hi, I'm the Son of God, follow me,' but we tend to assume that at least His disciples knew who He was, but I really don't think they did.

    He appears discussing theology and Scripture in the Temple. So He's something of a precocious child. Later, at the start of His ministry, He's still talking in the temple, still as insightful and precocious, so much so that He's beginning to make a name for Himself.

    He's based at Capernaum, and by the time He starts His peripatetic wanderings, He's got a large following and is funded by His supporters. He's also known as something of a wonder-worker, indeed some would say a miracle-worker.

    Then He selects the twelve from among His disciples, and then their education begins ... I think in the years that followed, they all at moments thought God was walking among them, at moments that He must be out of His mind, at moments that they must be mad ... I think their experiences with Him were far from comfortable, and it's apparent in John's account of the Last Supper that, as far as they were concerned, He was still talking in opaque and impenetrable riddles.

    Put yourself in their place:
    "When Jesus had said these things, he was troubled in spirit; and he testified, and said: Amen, amen I say to you, one of you shall betray me. The disciples therefore looked one upon another, doubting of whom he spoke."
    I would say they were confused. What does He mean 'betray'? We have an idea, but hindsight is a wonderful thing. For them though, what the heck is He going on about now?

    "Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved." John. (I've been through all the arguments, but the evidence says that of all the candidates for this position, the one who ticks the most boxes is John, the disciple of Jesus.)

    "Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, and said to him: Who is it of whom he speaketh?"
    This is such a fantastic piece of text! Put yourself in the room: He's gone and done it again, He's come out with one of His sayings that leaves them 'all at sea'! So Peter, who's the biggest of the bunch, the one most inclined to open his mouth and put his foot in it, turns to John, and says (stage whisper): 'what's He talking about now?' John says 'I don't know!' and Peter digs an elbow in his ribs, 'Well, ask Him then!'

    "He (John) therefore, leaning on the breast of Jesus, saith to him: Lord, who is it? Jesus answered: He it is to whom I shall reach bread dipped. And when he had dipped the bread, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon." Then, as John goes on to explain: "Now no man at the table knew to what purpose he said this unto him."

    It's clear to me that the disciples knew one thing: that Jesus was an unknown quantity. Remember Thomas took it for granted that they'd all be killed if they went up to Jerusalem with Him (John 11:16).

    It's clear everyone thought the crucifixion was a disaster. Have you seen The Passion of the Christ? Not a huge fan myself, but the one bit that does get to me is when Our Lord falls on the road to Golgotha and His mother rushes out of the crowd to His side (a bit of 'artistic license'). There He is, a bloody wreck on the way to His crucifixion, and He looks at her with an ironic smile and says "See, I make the world anew ... " or something like that ... I like that bit it, because it's so human.

    Absolutely! And some time the disciples followed the trail He was blazing, wondering what the heck was going to happen next, and at others I bet they felt as if they were standing in the mouth of a furnace.
     
  16. Frrostedman

    Frrostedman Keepin' it cool

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    Precisely, m'lady. Where do people get the idea that the bible says "72 hours." It's fallacious.
     
  17. DeiGratia

    DeiGratia New Member

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    Thomas, evidently you've studied Christology in great depth. I've asked around about this question and it seems I have now received the best answer and I thank you. What you wrote makes good sense. Right ... Mary was only a teenager, probably around 14-16 yrs old when she became pregnant, her awareness might have been only that God chose her to carry out His plan and the child she's carrying is Holy, nothing further ...

    __________
    Have you seen The Passion of the Christ? Not a huge fan myself, but the one bit that does get to me is when Our Lord falls on the road to Golgotha and His mother rushes out of the crowd to His side (a bit of 'artistic license'). There He is, a bloody wreck on the way to His crucifixion, and He looks at her with an ironic smile and says "See, I make the world anew ... "
    __________
    Yes I have, once. I attempted to watch it another time, but couldn't bear going thru all those brutal scenes again. I remember the line you're referring to. I remember bursting into tears at the scene.

    __________
    Absolutely! And some time the disciples followed the trail He was blazing, wondering what the heck was going to happen next, and at others I bet they felt as if they were standing in the mouth of a furnace.
    __________
    Oh I agree entirely!
     
  18. Thomas

    Thomas Super Moderator Staff Member

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    That's the way it reads to me. Traditional holds that Luke spent time with Mary and her testimony informs his gospel. He seems to know a lot that could have only come from her. (Aside: The two lineages 'contradiction' between Matthew and Luke is solved if Luke's is the Marian line, and Matthew's line is Joseph's.)

    Anyway ... after the Nativity, and after the Presentation in the Temple, Luke says "But Mary kept all these words, pondering them in her heart" (2:19) and again "And his mother kept all these words in her heart" (2:51).

    The verb 'pondered' is the Greek symballo, from which we derive the word 'symbol'. It has a long lexical, metaphysical and mystical explanation (on the difference between a symbol and a sign) that is still the subject of research today in some quarters, although the reading of the language of symbol has all but disappeared in the West.

    Simply put, the Greek verb symballo might be translated as 'putting two and two together' ... which I think is what Mary, and everyone else, was doing, or trying to, all the way through.
     

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