Evil

[Dream]

What I am trying to understand is if that GOD or (that being that binds and animates all things in existence) is all "GOOD", then why was evil created?

The idea I get is that all good things come from God, that disaster is also from God, and that a wise person will accept the disaster along with the good. Although we face disaster the goodness of life is worth the pain, so it is a matter of perspective whether each day is worthwhile or not. Is there such a thing as a really bad day?

"...for a living dog is better than a dead lion." Ecclesiastes 8:4

 

[bob x]

Dailogue, I don't see that the Qur'an helps at all. Isn't the devil the way he is because God made him that way, and must have wanted everything that happened? Unless you think that the devil is of independent origin and has power to defy God, or that God did not foresee what would happen, it still appears that all the evil was by God's choice.

 

[dailogue is the best]

Dailogue, I don't see that the Qur'an helps at all. .

Salam bob x,

Well, bob x , I think you wanted to say that the Qura'n doesnt help as far as far as you noticed from my previous post because me too I see that my previous post isnt giving complete picture about the evil in the Qur'an, but I decided to get enough with that amount of information so that YO can understand the Islamic view gradually. And I was expecting further questions from him, but since you have your own questions,bob x, let's start with them.

Isn't the devil the way he is because God made him that way, and must have wanted everything that happened? Unless you think that the devil is of independent origin and has power to defy God, or that God did not foresee what would happen, it still appears that all the evil was by God's choice.

Let me tell you, bob x, that the Qur'an tells us everything about evil (satan/iblis) creation and nature and nation. According to the Quran, the evil belongs to the Jin. Jin are nations like we human being. They are created out of fire. They are divided like human beings into belivers and non-believers. Ther are also free-willed. And when Satan chose to break God's order, it was the evil's will, and he would be punished out of it, but his punishment was delayed by God's order. (I will provide you with scriptures at the end of the post).

bob x, Of course God is all-knowing, and he knows everything before it happens, and he knew that the evil would break His order.

Here are the scriptures, and if you have any further question, you are welcome, bob x:

Here you have the full Jin chapter (very interesting to read: full knowledge about Jin life)

The Authorized English Translation of the Quran, Sura - 72 Jinns (Al-Jinn), translated from the original by Dr. Rashad Khalifa, Ph.D.-Quran, Koran, Qur'an, Quranic topics, Index, Browser, several translations, discussions, debates, Authorized English

Here you have the verses which talk about Satan’s violating God’s order, and that his punishment was delayed by God as Satan asked for that. Satan then swore to seduce human beings. God said that He would fill Hell with Satan and those who follow him. Here are the verses:


[38:71] Your Lord said to the angels, "I am creating a human being from clay.
[38:72] "Once I design him, and blow into him from My spirit, you shall fall prostrate before him."
[38:73] The angels fell prostrate, all of them,
[38:74] except Satan; he refused, and was too arrogant, unappreciative.
[38:75] He said, "O Satan, what prevented you from prostrating before what I created with My hands? Are you too arrogant? Have you rebelled?"
[38:76] He said, "I am better than he; You created me from fire, and created him from clay."
[38:77] He said, "Therefore, you must be exiled, you will be banished.
[38:78] "You have incurred My condemnation until the Day of Judgment."
[38:79] He said, "My Lord, respite me till the Day of Resurrection."
[38:80] He said, "You are respited.
[38:81] "Until the appointed day."
[38:82] He said, "I swear by Your majesty, that I will send them all astray.
[38:83] "Except Your worshipers who are devoted absolutely to You alone."
[38:84] He said, "This is the truth, and the truth is all that I utter.
[38:85] "I will fill Hell with you and all those who follow you."
[38:86] Say, "I do not ask you for any wage, and I am not an impostor.
[38:87] "This is a reminder for the world.
[38:88] "And you will certainly find out in awhile."

And here is the Quranic verse which reveals that Satan is from Jin:

“ And (remember) when We said to the angels; "Prostrate to Adam." So they prostrated except Iblis (Satan). He was one of the jinns; he disobeyed the Command of his Lord. Will you then take him (Iblis) and his offspring as protectors and helpers rather than Me while they are enemies to you? What an evil is the exchange for the Zalimun (polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc). S. 18:50"

PS : by the way, bob x, what I explained to Yo was about the evil coming from man. Here I m explaining Satan, its creation, nature, and role in our life. If you have any further questions, you are welcome.

 

[bob x]

Of course God is all-knowing, and he knows everything before it happens, and he knew that the evil would break His order.

So, God created Iblis because he WANTED the evil. If I plant a bomb, knowing perfectly well what a bomb is, and it blows up a child, should I say, *I* didn't kill the child, the bomb did?

 

[dailogue is the best]

So, God created Iblis because he WANTED the evil. If I plant a bomb, knowing perfectly well what a bomb is, and it blows up a child, should I say, *I* didn't kill the child, the bomb did?

bob x, It seems that you didnt attentively read my post, and especially the scriptures.

God created evil as He created human beings. And we are both in this world to be testified in our love and commitment to God'a teachings, so are the jinns, and iblis is one of jinns.

It is iblis who broke God's teaching willingly. Satan wasnt forced to breal God's order.

As human being too, we are both dust and God's breath. we are two contradicting forces (sometimes: if not really guided). If you submit to your dust nature without any guidance, then you are doing evil. Do you think that we are forced to do bad and evil because there is dust part inside us, bob x? accordingly, you dont blame any criminal of doing his crimes? Do you think that criminals's behaviours are justified because of your assumption?

 

[bob x]

bob x, It seems that you didnt attentively read my post, and especially the scriptures.

That's really offensive. Of course I did.

God created evil as He created human beings.

On the one hand you say this, that GOD CREATED THE EVIL, leaving the question, why did God do so?

As human being too, we are both dust and God's breath.

On the other hand, you say this, as if the "dust" came from somewhere else, other than God. Which do you believe?

accordingly, you dont blame any criminal of doing his crimes?

Of course I do, but that is because I do not believe in a God like yours who controls all things. If it was God who DECIDED that the criminal would do all those things, then the responsibility is God's.

 

[dailogue is the best]

That's really offensive. Of course I did.

No offense is meant, bob x. And I m really sorry if you felt it so .​

On the one hand you say this, that GOD CREATED THE EVIL, leaving the question, why did God do so?

bob x, can you please specify what you meant by EVIL? Do you mean Satan/ Iblis or do you mean evil deeds? I have different answers for both.​

On the other hand, you say this, as if the "dust" came from somewhere else, other than God. Which do you believe?

Look, bob x. According to the Quran, God says to us that we are created (both jinns and human beings) to be TESTED: Who is best in deeds and submit to God and His teachings. God says: "​

[18:6] You may blame yourself on account of their response to this narration, and their disbelieving in it; you may be saddened.[18:7] We have adorned everything on earth, in order to test them, and thus distinguish those among them who work righteousness.

The fact that we are created from dust is coming from God of course. Yet, what's the wisdom behind it? that's the question.​

A human being is both dust and God's breath. AND THAT IS THE TEST, BOB X. What is the use of test if there is no obstacles that you have to overcome. The obstacles in human being is the over sticking to dust part in human being. To marry is accepted by God, but to have illegal sexual relationship is forbidden by Him. So, the test: Will you resist your lust and whims? will you control yourself? (the examples are numerous)​

God says:
18:28 And keep thy soul content with those who call on their Lord morning and evening, seeking His Face; and let not thine eyes pass beyond them, seeking the pomp and glitter of this Life; no obey any whose heart We have permitted to neglect the remembrance of Us, one who follows his own desires, whose case has gone beyond all bounds.​

Also, He says:​

16"Therefore, let not the one who believes not therein, but follows his own lusts, divert you therefrom, lest you perish. (chapter 20)

Also, He says:​

7:176 If it had been Our will, We should have elevated him with Our signs; but he inclined to the earth, and followed his own vain desires.His similitude is that of a dog: if you attack him, he lolls out his tongue, or if you leave him alone, he (still) lolls out his tongue. That is the similitude of those who reject Our signs; So relate the story; perchance they may reflect."

bob x, God showed us the good from the evil through pure nature+ His Scriptures and prophets. It is up to us to educate our souls, and train them to get higher than animalistic, evil desires. That's the test. We should work hard to keep stick to God. God says:

"[91:7] The soul and Him who created it.
[91:8] Then showed it what is evil and what is good.
[91:9] Successful is one who redeems it.
[91:10] Failing is one who neglects it."

Of course I do, but that is because I do not believe in a God like yours who controls all things. If it was God who DECIDED that the criminal would do all those things, then the responsibility is God's.

bob x, I think NOW you clearly understannd how I see evil deeds from an Islamic point of view. Those criminals fail to resist their egos, and they incline to earth. They are totally responsilble of their deeds. God give us freedom because we are in this world life to be tested. And what's the use of a test if there is no free will. God wants our willing love and committment to Him, not a forced one.​

I hope it is clearer now. But if things still seem unclear, dont hesitate to ask, bob x.​

 

[mee]

Evil is not created by God. It is a choice made by his creation (us).

very true , and the first creature to start the evil way, was that old original serpent he did not stand fast in the truth

 

[mee]

The Lord says in Isa-45:7, I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all these things.



Thanks,.
Darren

Forming light and creating darkness, making peace and creating calamity, I, Jehovah, am doing all these things.
isa 45-7


Forming light and creating darkness, making peace [that is, for his exiled people] and creating calamity [for Babylon], I, Jehovah, am doing all these things."—Isaiah 45:4-7.

make no mistake the most high will prove to be . and any opposition will not stand .


he can manover things in any way he choices to make peace for his people


and it will be calamity for those in opposition to Gods purpose.


Remember that this prophecy of Isaiah was recorded some 200 years before the event.

Upon hearing it some may have wondered, ‘Does Jehovah truly have the power to fulfill it?’

As history testifies, the answer is yes.

Jehovah explains why it is reasonable to believe that he can accomplish what he says: "Forming light and creating darkness, making peace and creating calamity, I, Jehovah, am doing all these things." (Isaiah 45:7)


Everything in creation—from light to darkness—and everything in history—from peace to calamity—is subject to Jehovah’s control.

Just as he creates the light of day and the darkness of night, so he will make peace for SPIRITUAL ISRAEL and calamity for . BABYLON THE GREAT

( babylon the great being the worldwide empire of false religion)

Jehovah has the power to create the universe, and he also has the power to fulfill his prophecies.

That is reassuring to Christians today, who closely study his prophetic word.

 

[bob x]

bob x, can you please specify what you meant by EVIL? Do you mean Satan/ Iblis or do you mean evil deeds? I have different answers for both.​

I meant both, and did not think you would distinguish one as created by God and the other not. I would be interested how you make the distinction.

 

[dailogue is the best]

I meant both, and did not think you would distinguish one as created by God and the other not. I would be interested how you make the distinction.

You questioned: " why does God create evil (satan/ evil deeds)?.

Bob x, well, I explained in the previous posts that God created human beings and jinns to worship Him. Worshipping God means establishing a relation of Love with Him through following His DOs, and avoiding His DONTs.

I explained that human beings are in this world life to be tested in their committment to God. God creates that animalistic derives in us, and asks us to educate our souls as I show you through some Quranic verses in the previous post. God doesnt ask us to kill, steal, backbite, destroy etc, though He gives us the ability to do that. God doesnt create man's evil deeds. He merely gives us the ability and choice. It is man who creates evil in the world. It is man who strikes wars and destruction around the world. It is man who neglects and ignores God, and chooses Satan's and ego's inspiration.

You may ask: "Why those men are given freedom to do bad?!".
The answer is that: "we are in test. That's why we are given freedom. Yet, Those men should be punished in this world, and if they dont sincerely repent to God, their punishment would be harsher in the day of judgement. Blessed are those who keep stick to God's teachings, and strive with might and means to educate their souls."

Is it clearer now, bob x? I hope so.

 

[winner08]

You questioned: " why does God create evil (satan/ evil deeds)?.

Bob x, well, I explained in the previous posts that God created human beings and jinns to worship Him. Worshipping God means establishing a relation of Love with Him through following His DOs, and avoiding His DONTs.

I explained that human beings are in this world life to be tested in their committment to God. God creates that animalistic derives in us, and asks us to educate our souls as I show you through some Quranic verses in the previous post. God doesnt ask us to kill, steal, backbite, destroy etc, though He gives us the ability to do that. God doesnt create man's evil deeds. He merely gives us the ability and choice. It is man who creates evil in the world. It is man who strikes wars and destruction around the world. It is man who neglects and ignores God, and chooses Satan's and ego's inspiration.

You may ask: "Why those men are given freedom to do bad?!".
The answer is that: "we are in test. That's why we are given freedom. Yet, Those men should be punished in this world, and if they dont sincerely repent to God, their punishment would be harsher in the day of judgement. Blessed are those who keep stick to God's teachings, and strive with might and means to educate their souls."

Is it clearer now, bob x? I hope so.

dialouge, it is clear to people who believe as you do but others might not believe as you do. I for one do not. I don't believe in hell and I don't believe in free will or free choice. However I do believe that we are being tested in our daily lives. My last word on this subject is My God will save all mankind. Now understand I did not say mankind wouldnn't have to be judged and pay the price in the lake of fire but in the end all will be saved every human being that ever lived and are going to live and die. Isn't that a much nicer God than one who created you and then burn you up forever because you did't believe in Him. What about those people who never even heard of Jesus Christ are they going to hell because they are ignorent of Jesus and His teachings???

 

[mee]

I don't believe in hell quote]



thats good to hear
because the true bible teaching is not about a litral hellfire as Religious leaders have promoted , those religious leaders have a lot to answer to God . they make out that the God of the bible is evil . and many many people get to believe manmade doctrines. and then they are led down the path of falsehood , instead of true bible teaching .A god of love does not burn people forever how EVIL to teach such a thing as that.


religious leaders who promote falsehood are going down, and it will happen quickly, just like when a heavy millstone is thrown into the sea.


never to be found again


And a strong angel lifted up a stone like a great millstone and hurled it into the sea, saying: "Thus with a swift pitch will Babylon the great city be hurled down, and she will never be found again. revelation 18;21

babylon the great is (THE WORLDWIDE EMPIRE OF FALSE RELIGION) And there is lots of it around


Gods people are told to GET OUT OF HER revelation 18;4

 

[dailogue is the best]

Bob x, the following Quranic verse explains where evil deeds come from :

[4:79] Anything good that happens to you is from GOD, and anything bad that happens to you is from you. We have sent you as a messenger to the people, and GOD suffices as witness. ​

 

[dailogue is the best]

dialouge, it is clear to people who believe as you do but others might not believe as you do. I for one do not. I don't believe in hell and I don't believe in free will or free choice. However I do believe that we are being tested in our daily lives. My last word on this subject is My God will save all mankind. Now understand I did not say mankind wouldnn't have to be judged and pay the price in the lake of fire but in the end all will be saved every human being that ever lived and are going to live and die. Isn't that a much nicer God than one who created you and then burn you up forever because you did't believe in Him. What about those people who never even heard of Jesus Christ are they going to hell because they are ignorent of Jesus and His teachings???

From an Islamic point of view, hell is a fact. And those who deny it, God says to them the following:

2:80] Some have said, "Hell will not touch us, except for a limited number of days." Say, "Have you taken such a pledge from GOD - GOD never breaks His pledge - or, are you saying about GOD what you do not know?"

[3:24] This is because they said, "The hellfire will not touch us, except for a few days." They were thus deceived in their religion by their own fabrications.

As for the others who never meet God' messangers or hear of His message, they wouldnt be punished (of breaking God's orders) as the following verse clarifies:

[17:15] Whoever is guided, is guided for his own good, and whoever goes astray does so to his own detriment. No sinner will bear the sins of anyone else. We never punish without first sending a messenger.

 

[bob x]

Dailogue, we seem to be talking past each other somewhat. You might look at the "Free Will (An Illusion?)" thread: like many, I have my doubts that "free will" even makes any sense in the context of an all-knowing God.
But assume it is so. Still, God likewise had the free will, to create Hitler (knowing everything that he would do), or to not create Hitler. Say as much as you want about how Hitler is completely blameworthy for his own choices: granted. God is also completely blameworthy, the way that your Qur'an describes it. Suppose I choose to put a vicious pedophile (whom I know very well, and can anticipate what he will do) into a room with a little child: why would I do that? You speak of God conducting a "test", but that word does not make any sense if God already knows the outcome. And to say that God's purpose is to eternally torture the evildoers which He need not have created in the first place is to make God the worst of evildoers: do you not see why I find the Qur'an a supremely blasphemous book?

 

[dailogue is the best]

Dailogue, we seem to be talking past each other somewhat. You might look at the "Free Will (An Illusion?)" thread: like many, I have my doubts that "free will" even makes any sense in the context of an all-knowing God.

But assume it is so. Still, God likewise had the free will, to create Hitler (knowing everything that he would do), or to not create Hitler. Say as much as you want about how Hitler is completely blameworthy for his own choices: granted. God is also completely blameworthy, the way that your Qur'an describes it. Suppose I choose to put a vicious pedophile (whom I know very well, and can anticipate what he will do) into a room with a little child: why would I do that? You speak of God conducting a "test", but that word does not make any sense if God already knows the outcome. And to say that God's purpose is to eternally torture the evildoers which He need not have created in the first place is to make God the worst of evildoers: do you not see why I find the Qur'an a supremely blasphemous book?

Well, bob x, I wonder if you really know of the Quran very well so that you can find it blasphemous. I may understand why do you find it so, though. Sometimes, our knowledge is incomplete. Yet, knowledge is built gradually by the process of searching and discussing.

Let me tell you, bob x, that there is no ABSOLUTE evil on earth because it contradicts of the existence of a merciful, just, omnipotent, preserver, and mighty God.

You talked about what Hitler did, and what millions of evildoers did/are doing/will do on earth of destruction of all kinds. Let me tell you, bob x, that God is always present, and His mercy, justice, wisdom and power are always present.

Please, bob x, read the following Quranic verses attentively. They present amazing facts.

(Valuable Lessons from Moses and his Teacher)
[18:60] Moses said to his servant, "I will not rest until I reach the point where the two rivers meet, no matter how long it takes."
[18:61] When they reached the point where they met, they forgot their fish, and it found its way back to the river, sneakily.
[18:62] After they passed that point, he said to his servant, "Let us have lunch. All this traveling has thoroughly exhausted us."
[18:63] He said, "Remember when we sat by the rock back there? I paid no attention to the fish. It was the devil who made me forget it, and it found its way back to the river, strangely."
[18:64] (Moses) said, "That was the place we were looking for." They traced their steps back.
[18:65] They found one of our servants, whom we blessed with mercy, and bestowed upon him from our own knowledge.
[18:66] Moses said to him, "Can I follow you, that you may teach me some of the knowledge and the guidance bestowed upon you?"
[18:67] He said, "You cannot stand to be with me.
[18:68] "How can you stand that which you do not comprehend?"
[18:69] He said, "You will find me, GOD willing, patient. I will not disobey any command you give me."
[18:70] He said, "If you follow me, then you shall not ask me about anything, unless I choose to tell you about it."
[18:71] So they went. When they boarded a ship, he bore a hole in it. He said, "Did you bore a hole in it to drown its people? You have committed something terrible."
[18:72] He said, "Did I not say that you cannot stand to be with me?"
[18:73] He said, "I am sorry. Do not punish me for my forgetfulness; do not be too harsh with me."
[18:74] So they went. When they met a young boy, he killed him. He said, "Why did you kill such an innocent person, who did not kill another person? You have committed something horrendous."
[18:75] He said, "Did I not tell you that you cannot stand to be with me?"
[18:76] He said, "If I ask you about anything else, then do not keep me with you. You have seen enough apologies from me."
[18:77] So they went. When they reached a certain community, they asked the people for food, but they refused to host them. Soon, they found a wall about to collapse, and he fixed it. He said, "You could have demanded a wage for that!"

(There is a Good Reason for Everything)​

[18:78] He said, "Now we have to part company. But I will explain to you everything you could not stand.
[18:79] "As for the ship, it belonged to poor fishermen, and I wanted to render it defective. There was a king coming after them, who was confiscating every ship, forcibly.
[18:80] "As for the boy, his parents were good believers, and we saw that he was going to burden them with his transgression and disbelief.
[18:81] "We willed that your Lord substitute in his place another son; one who is better in righteousness and kindness.
[18:82] "As for the wall, it belonged to two orphan boys in the city. Under it, there was a treasure that belonged to them. Because their father was a righteous man, your Lord wanted them to grow up and attain full strength, then extract their treasure. Such is mercy from your Lord. I did none of that of my own volition. This is the explanation of the things you could not stand."

Bob x, from this story of Moses and that servant whom God gives the hidden wisdom, or the inner knowledge, we learn that there is wisdom behind everything happens on the earth, but we are of limited knowledge and cannot understand God’s wisdom behind everything takes place on earth.

A true believer of God always know that anything happens on earth it is of God’ permission, and since God let it happens, then there is wisdom behind it.

The wisdom as explained in some Quranic verses, and hadiths may be :forgiveness of some mistakes, cleansing one of his/ her mistakes, test of good believer from the fake one, a remedy for people to get to the straight path, getting one far from danger, or bringing one some goodness, and benefits.

I would like to share with you a Chinese story which talk about the relativity of good/ bad. The title of the story is “ good luck, bad luck. Who knows?" The story says that a Chinese wise man had a wild horse. All his neighbours were envying him of that horse. One day, the horse run away. The neighbours said to the wise man: “oh! Bad luck!” the wise man said: “ bad luck, good luck, who knows?. After some period, the horse returned home with so many other wild horse. The neighbours said to the wise man: “ oh! Good luck!”. The wise man said: “ good luck, bad luck, who knows?”. One day, the wise man’s son was training the horses, and he fell and broke his legs. The neighbours said: “ oh! Bad luck!”. The wise man said: “ bad luck, good luck, who knows?”. One day, china decided to enter in a loosing war with a very strong country. China’s rate of victory were very low. China decided to take all the youth to take the war, except those who were handicapped or ill. Thus, the wise man’s son wasn’t taken. The neighbours said: “oh! Good luck”. The wise man said: “ good luck, bad luck, who knows? And the story goes like that, bob x.

Be sure, bob x, that God does exist and He is behaving in a merciful, wise way. It is we that we cannot understand that wisom. We are of short sight, and our minds cant get all the divine knowledge and wisdom. A true believer when facing any calamities, he/she submits to God’s wisdom. God says: “155. Be sure we shall test you with something of fear and hunger, some loss in goods or lives or the fruits (of your toil), but give glad tidings to those who patiently persevere, 156. Who say, when afflicted with calamity: "To Allah We belong, and to Him is our return":- 157. They are those on whom (Descend) blessings from Allah, and Mercy, and they are the ones that receive guidance. (chapter 2)

PS: One final remark, bob x, I m here talking about things that you have no will in. For example, someone is going home, and suddenly a car hit him. But, things that do freely like the moral issues we face everyday, we are of course responsible of and any bad result come from them, it comes out of our disobedience of God.

 

[bob x]

Well, bob x, I wonder if you really know of the Quran very well so that you can find it blasphemous. I may understand why do you find it so, though.

I find it so because of the way that you depict it.

Let me tell you, bob x, that there is no ABSOLUTE evil on earth because it contradicts of the existence of a merciful, just, omnipotent, preserver, and mighty God.

There most certainly IS absolute evil on the Earth. It is delusion to say otherwise. And yes, that certainly does contradict your depiction of God.

Let me tell you, bob x, that God is always present, and His mercy, justice, wisdom and power are always present.

Mercy, justice, wisdom, and power are painfully absent. If your God exists at all, He is either merciless, unjust, unwise, or powerless.

Please, bob x, read the following Quranic verses attentively. They present amazing facts.

"Facts"??? They present a fairly dull fairy tale. According to this story, when evil things happen it is to prevent worse evil things. That is hardly ever the case, but even if it were so, it would not answer the question of why all the evil things in the first place.

The wisdom as explained in some Quranic verses, and hadiths may be :forgiveness of some mistakes, cleansing one of his/ her mistakes, test of good believer from the fake one, a remedy for people to get to the straight path, getting one far from danger, or bringing one some goodness, and benefits.

Of these various excuses (none of which seem to apply to such cases as babies thrown into the furnace, or whatever; but never mind that now), the "test" is the one I have asked you to explain before, and never gotten an answer to. Only if God is ignorant of what the outcome will be does it make any sense to speak of "testing".

I would like to share with you a Chinese story which talk about the relativity of good/ bad.

This appears to be what the Qur'an is plagiarizing in the story you told before.

PS: One final remark, bob x, I m here talking about things that you have no will in. For example, someone is going home, and suddenly a car hit him. But, things that do freely like the moral issues we face everyday, we are of course responsible of and any bad result come from them, it comes out of our disobedience of God.

People often suffer from the bad will of OTHER people-- because God chose to make those other people, knowing the evil they would do?

 

[dailogue is the best]

[/FONT][/COLOR]
I find it so because of the way that you depict it.

Then, it would be better to say “according to your explanation” “from what you explained, I find that the Qur’an….” Because I am not a scholar, bob. Besides, I am presenting you knowledge in gradual way according to your questions.

There most certainly IS absolute evil on the Earth. It is delusion to say otherwise. And yes, that certainly does contradict your depiction of God.

That’s your personal view, bob. As for me, I am presenting you what the Quran teaches.

We can’t depend on ourselves to understand everything that is going on earth. That’s why God sent messengers, and sent down holy books. God knows what we don’t know, bob.

All the planets seem coin-seized, while in reality they are very big. Sense perception doesn’t give us accurate knowledge all the time, bob. It isn’t always reliable.

Mercy, justice, wisdom, and power are painfully absent. If your God exists at all, He is either merciless, unjust, unwise, or powerless.

Sense perception again!!!! God’s mercy, justice, wisdom, and power are all present and all the time. But, God works in a way that we, who are of short sight, cant grasp. God says: “*{…of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you, (O men!)}* (17:85)

As Muslims, we believe that this world is just a temporary station through which we move to our lasting life, the hereafter. Therein, one lives in paradise or hell. Hence, the true believer keeps stick to God, and be patient to any evil that may face him/her in this world for he/she belives in the existence and powers of God. The prophet Muhammed (pbuh) said: "Wondrous are the believer's affairs. For him there is good in all his affairs, and this is so only for the believer. When something pleasing happens to him, he is grateful, and that is good for him. And when something displeasing happens to him, he is patient, and that is good for him." (Muslim). Also, God says: *{Nay, seek (Allah's) help with patient perseverance and prayer: It is indeed hard, except to those who bring a lowly spirit….}* ( 2:45)​

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The Quran is full of prophets’ stories which tell us about the wisdom behind the sufferings, and evil the prophets underwent. Jacob, for instance, suffered from the loss of his dear son, Joseph. Out of envy, Joseph’s brothers decided to get rid of Joseph. They threw him in a will, and they said to Jacob that Joseph was eaten by a wolf. What was the reaction of Jacob? He kept patient, and that is the attitude of the true believer who knows that God always present, wise and merciful. He said: “He said, "Indeed, you have conspired with each other to commit a certain scheme. All I can do is resort to a quiet patience. May GOD help me in the face of your conspiracy.".​

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Now, let’s discuss to the wisdom behind the evil practiced by Joseph’s brothers: If Joseph hadn’t been thrown in the well, he wouldn’t have been found by some passengers who wanted to drink from the well, and then he was taken to Egypt where the king bought him, and grew there to be the treasurer of the country.​

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Also, Joseph faced the evil from the king’s wife who tried to seduce him. Joseph refused to surrender to the king’s wife, and was sent to jail for a long period. There, he met some prisoners whom knew of Joseph’s capacity of explaining dreams. If Joseph hadn’t entered the jail, how could have one of those prisoners who later on became one of the king’s servant s told the king of Joseph’s ability of explaining dreams, when the king had a dream that his scholars failed to explain? If Joseph hadn’t entered prison, how could he then get out of it after putting his conditions of clarifying the fact of the king’s wife, and of making him the treasurer?​

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And finally, after a long period of time, Jacob, who never lost hope in Joseph to come back home, met his son who was now in a very high status.​

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Bob, God’s mercy and wisdom always exist, and it is we that we fail to see it because neither sense perception, nor pure reason can grasp it. Only faith as that one in Jacoob’s heart that can make us see things clearly.​

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The Quran is full of prophet’s stories which shows that God’s will is always done, and within God’s will, there is all goodness. For example, Moses’s mother put him in a cradle on a river. This is a picture of evil. But look at the wisdom: Pharoh, who heared from his magician that a new born child would defeat him, killed all the new born children, while Moses was under Paharoh’s protection and in his home as Pharoah’s wife found the baby, loved him, and convinced Pharoah of bringing him up.​

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"Facts"??? They present a fairly dull fairy tale. According to this story, when evil things happen it is to prevent worse evil things. That is hardly ever the case, but even if it were so, it would not answer the question of why all the evil things in the first place.

Well, bob. Here we may differ because I am a Muslim, and I believe that all the knowledge presented in the Quran are real facts.

“Why do all the evil things exist in the first place?” As I told you earlier, we are in a test, hence we are given free will. As a consequence of this freedom, some people may choose to do evil things. Hence, people may get harmed by others’ evil deeds. Yet, a believer who is always with God, words and deeds, is patient at everything he/she may face. Believers know that they are under God’s testing, and that with God’s presence, no matter what they face, they are winners. God says:*{Every soul shall have a taste of death: and We test you by evil and by good by way of trial; to Us must ye return.}* (21:35)

Of these various excuses (none of which seem to apply to such cases as babies thrown into the furnace, or whatever; but never mind that now), the "test" is the one I have asked you to explain before, and never gotten an answer to. Only if God is ignorant of what the outcome will be does it make any sense to speak of "testing".

As for the babies, they will be in paradise waiting for their parents to join them. Believers will be patient at such a hard task, knowing that this world life is a mere bridge towards our final settlement, and that God is of all wisdom and mercy.

Sorry, bob, if I stepped over answering your question about “test”, and if God is ignorant of outcomes or not. According to the Quran, God is all-knowing. He knows in advance of everything we may make. Like a teacher who knows the level of his/ her students, and who is going to pass or fail. Yet, the teacher has to make a test to their students so that the marks the students get would be a proof against them or for their benefits. And this is the case with God and his servants.

Now, we come to your next question: if God is all knowing, hence what is the use of testing? Let me clear up, bob, that God’s test for us isn’t that kind of military, feeling less test. No. God’s test to us has to do with mutual love between Him and us. God created us to show us mercy and love. The purpose behind God’s test to us is to create human beings that would share with him a relation of love. God says: On those who have faith and do good will the Most Gracious One bestow love." (19:96).

Say, (O My Prophet to the people), "if you love God, follow me, (and) God will love you and forgive you your sins; for God is oft-forgiving, most merciful." (3:31)

“The Quran reinforces that this life will present some people who will experience God’s love and communicate under its shadows. Those are the ones that are called in Islam Muslims (submitters), which literally means those who submit to God. They strive with might and means to submit their souls, hearts, minds, and bodies to this relation with God. They are those ones who find peace, satisfaction, and confidence in God, and who do good, and try their best to do things in the right way” (Jeffrey Lang)

This appears to be what the Qur'an is plagiarizing in the story you told before.

What?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

People often suffer from the bad will of OTHER people-- because God chose to make those other people, knowing the evil they would do?

Neither sense perception nor pure reason can answer our questions about the problem of evil. It is only faith of the existence of God, and His wisdom that gives believers the power to stand and be patient, with a heart full of God and his love.

 

[bob x]

That’s your personal view, bob. As for me, I am presenting you what the Quran teaches.

Exactly. I find it impossible to view the Qur'an as teaching anything remotely like truth.

That’s why God sent messengers, and sent down holy books.

I utterly reject the notion that God has any need for "messengers" or to write books. What use could God have for intermediaries?

Well, bob. Here we may differ because I am a Muslim, and I believe that all the knowledge presented in the Quran are real facts.

But you should know better than to present your belief as if it were knowledge. Are you God?

Sorry, bob, if I stepped over answering your question about “test”, and if God is ignorant of outcomes or not. According to the Quran, God is all-knowing. He knows in advance of everything we may make. Like a teacher who knows the level of his/ her students, and who is going to pass or fail.

I AM a teacher. I do not have that kind of omniscience. If I did, there would be no use of a test at all.

Now, we come to your next question: if God is all knowing, hence what is the use of testing? Let me clear up, bob, that God’s test for us isn’t that kind of military, feeling less test. No. God’s test to us has to do with mutual love between Him and us.

Infliction of torment is "love"? Your God is a foul demon.

What?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The Qur'an is filled with folk tales that had been told by other people, long before, usually told better. This is part of why I do not find it a very impressive piece of writing.