Evil

[dailogue is the best]

[/font][/color] Exactly. I find it impossible to view the Qur'an as teaching anything remotely like truth.

Again, I wonder if you have read the Quran. Have you read about the scientific facts in the Quran?!!!

I utterly reject the notion that God has any need for "messengers" or to write books. What use could God have for intermediaries?

Faith is both: reason, and writing. One can get to the fact that there is creator to this world by our minds, but we cant know who He is, and how to get to Him, and contact Him without messangers and Holy Books.

But you should know better than to present your belief as if it were knowledge. Are you God?

I believe it is from God.

I AM a teacher. I do not have that kind of omniscience. If I did, there would be no use of a test at all.

I AM a teacher, too. I have small classes, and I know the level of all my students. Tests would be so necessary, though. If I wouldnt make them tests, and give them marks by myself, they would accuse me of unjustice.

Infliction of torment is "love"? Your God is a foul demon.

When a doctor cuts an ill hand that will poison the rest of body, acn we accuse him of being a foul demon.

The Qur'an is filled with folk tales that had been told by other people, long before, usually told better. This is part of why I do not find it a very impressive piece of writing.

Prejudice, prejudice, prejudice. Have you conducted any scientific resaerch, bob? or you just depend on your own subjective emotions?

 

[bob x]

Again, I wonder if you have read the Quran. Have you read about the scientific facts in the Quran?!!!

Please don't start going into this crap about the "scientific facts" in the Qur'an.

One can get to the fact that there is creator to this world by our minds, but we cant know who He is, and how to get to Him, and contact Him without messangers and Holy Books.

Why? Why is God, according to you, so powerless that He cannot show Himself except through intermediaries who garble the message?

I believe it is from God.

You BELIEVE that, yes. Stop speaking as if you KNOW.

I AM a teacher, too. I have small classes, and I know the level of all my students. Tests would be so necessary, though. If I wouldnt make them tests, and give them marks by myself, they would accuse me of unjustice.

Do you teach medical school, and give the ones who you know to be incapable of performing surgery a "test" by providing them with innocent patients to mutilate and put through misery? This is what you depict God as doing.

When a doctor cuts an ill hand that will poison the rest of body, acn we accuse him of being a foul demon.

According to you, God CREATES the illness and the poison.

Prejudice, prejudice, prejudice. Have you conducted any scientific resaerch, bob? or you just depend on your own subjective emotions?

I do indeed research. The source of the stories in the Qur'an is usually well-known, and the original versions are generally better-told than what we find in the Qur'an.

 

[dailogue is the best]

Please don't start going into this crap about the "scientific facts" in the Qur'an.

If you want to call it crap, you are free, bob. BUT, THEY ARE FACTS. Scientists say their word in their specialization.

The quran miracles encyclopedia

Why? Why is God, according to you, so powerless that He cannot show Himself except through intermediaries who garble the message?

Who said that God is powerless!! Of course, He isn’t. But He doesn’t want our forced piety. He wants our free love and worship to Him. God says:


[26:3] You may blame yourself that they are not believers.
[26:4] If we will, we can send from the sky a sign that forces their necks to bow.
[26:5] Whenever a reminder from the Most Gracious comes to them, that is new, they turn away in aversion.
[26:6] Since they disbelieved, they have incurred the consequences of their heedlessness.
[26:7] Have they not seen the earth, and how many kinds of beautiful plants we have grown thereon?
[26:8] This should be a sufficient proof for them, but most of them are not believers.
[26:9] Most assuredly, your Lord is the Almighty, Most Merciful.

You BELIEVE that, yes. Stop speaking as if you KNOW.

I have the right to speak what I believe it is true, bob. you have the same right, too.

Do you teach medical school, and give the ones who you know to be incapable of performing surgery a "test" by providing them with innocent patients to mutilate and put through misery? This is what you depict God as doing.

God gives us freedom to do well or bad, and this freedom as you said, bob, may harm others. But, God also asks us to work hard and stand in the face of any injustice and oppression. God says: [4:75] Why should you not fight in the cause of GOD when weak men, women, and children are imploring: "Our Lord, deliver us from this community whose people are oppressive, and be You our Lord and Master." [4:76] Those who believe are fighting for the cause of GOD, while those who disbelieve are fighting for the cause of tyranny. Therefore, you shall fight the devil's allies; the devil's power is nil.

Bob, if God behaves in behalf of us in all situations, then what is the use of having free will??!! What is the use of being in a trial?!!! We are responsible of our others’s sufferings, and we have to move to stop those sufferings. We have to use our free will in goodness, helping those in need, and standing in the face of those who are oppressors.

It is man who chooses evil, and it is man who should fight it. A true believer is under God’s protection, and if any harm touches him/her, he / she is patient since he/she believes in the wisdom of God, and His mercy. He/she believes that God is with him/her as long as she/he is with Him.

According to you, God CREATES the illness and the poison.

God creates cause and effect for everything. If someone is a heavy smoker, he may face the risk of having lungs cancer. Does God create this illness in this man with no cause? Or is it that man who chooses to smoke and hence get himself ill?
If there were no bad results to bad choices, then bad and good would be equal?!!

I do indeed research. The source of the stories in the Qur'an is usually well-known, and the original versions are generally better-told than what we find in the Qur'an.

Excuse me, bob, but let me say that your view is a subjective/baised one. Your view comes as a result of the similarities between the three Holy books. The similarities come from the fact that the source of them is one, which is God. Yet, are the similarities very identical? No, there is a big difference despite the similarities. If you had conducted an objective research, you would have come to other conclusions, bob.

God says:
[8:31] When our revelations are recited to them, they say, "We have heard. If we wanted to, we could have said the same things. These are no more than tales from the past!"

He also says:
[25:4] Those who disbelieved said, "This is a fabrication that he produced, with the help of some other people." They have uttered a blasphemy and a falsehood.
[25:5] They also said, "Tales from the past that he wrote down; they were dictated to him day and night."
[25:6] Say, "This was revealed by the One who knows the Secret in the heavens and the earth. He is Forgiving, Most Merciful."

 

[bob x]

If you want to call it crap, you are free, bob. BUT, THEY ARE FACTS. Scientists say their word in their specialization.

Now, that's just lying. It is one thing if you, personally, are impressed by these things, but when you pretend that scientists are, you have crossed the line into falsehood.

Who said that God is powerless!! Of course, He isn’t. But He doesn’t want our forced piety. He wants our free love and worship to Him.

You are asking me to give worship to the word of human messengers, whom I have no reason to trust, and to love a character in a story book, which I have no reason to think true. What sense would it make for God to hide behind intermediaries in such a way?

I have the right to speak what I believe it is true, bob. you have the same right, too.

Good. Then stop this crap about shouting in capital letters THESE ARE FACTS! when all they are is your beliefs. I do not do that to you. I say "I do not think the Qur'an is true" and so on, for I understand that I am only a human and not infallible.

Bob, if God behaves in behalf of us in all situations, then what is the use of having free will??!!

If God works AGAINST us in many situations, what is the use of free will?

What is the use of being in a trial?!!!

NONE WHATSOEVER, so far as I see. What is it that you think is useful about "trial"?

God creates cause and effect for everything. If someone is a heavy smoker, he may face the risk of having lungs cancer. Does God create this illness in this man with no cause?

MOST cancers, yes indeed, they occur for reasons which have nothing whatsoever to do with any choices that the person ever made.

Your view comes as a result of the similarities between the three Holy books.

And similarities between the Qur'an and pagan folklores.

Yet, are the similarities very identical? No, there is a big difference despite the similarities.

Where there are differences between the Qur'an and earlier tellings of the same stories, I always find the Qur'an to be the feebler version.

 

[dailogue is the best]

Where there are differences between the Qur'an and earlier tellings of the same stories, I always find the Qur'an to be the feebler version

Now, that's just lying. It is one thing if you, personally, are impressed by these things, but when you pretend that scientists are, you have crossed the line into falsehood.

Good. Then stop this crap about shouting in capital letters THESE ARE FACTS! when all they are is your beliefs. I do not do that to you. I say "I do not think the Qur'an is true" and so on, for I understand that I am only a human and not infallible.

Bob, look. I am not here to lie or pretend. Scientists are really impressed by the scientific facts in the Quran. And the quotations below show some of the scientists’ views about science and the Quran.

While you see that the Quran is the feebler version of those stories, scientists find that the Quran is very accurate. On the contrary, some of them find that the previous Books contain many information that go against what science has proved to be true.

By the way, bob, I didn’t use the capital letters to indicate shouting. No, at all. I used them to express insistence. That’s all.

In his book, The Bible, The Qur'an and Science,[5] Bucaille aims to prove the Qur'an is in agreement with scientific facts, while the Bible is not. He claims that in Islam, science and religion have always been "twin sisters" (vii). According to Bucaille, there are monumental errors of science in the Bible and not a single error in the Quran (120), whose descriptions of natural phenomena make it compatible with modern science. Bucaille concludes that the Qur'an is the reliable word of God.

Bucaille argues that the Old Testament should have been distorted because of numerous translations and corrections as it was transmitted orally. He highlights, in his words, "numerous disagreements and repetitions", in the Old Testament (12) and the Gospels (85, 95). In his analysis, Bucaille claims he makes use of many propositions of Biblical criticism, such as the Documentary hypothesis.
With regard to the Qu'ran, Bucaille however follows the Islamic tradition that the Quranic scrolls are said to be collected during Muhammad's lifetime and were deemed accurate by the archangel Gabriel himself (132).
In his opinion, the first of the examples of the consistency of the Quran and science should be presented by the creation of the heavens and the earth.

Bucaille's criticism of the Bible focuses on the creation account found in the Genesis, which in his view contains the most glaring inconsistencies between religion and science. He criticizes verses 1:1-2 as stating that the earth was first a gaseous mass and then water was placed on it, 1:20-25 as letting the "beasts of the earth" appear after the birds (26), which he contrasts with the theory of evolution, and 2:4-5 as claiming that "when God created man, there was no vegetation on Earth (it had not yet rained)". (28)

Bucaille also makes use of the case of Galileo, who was condemned by the Catholic church.

Bucaille points out that the Qur'an, unlike the Bible, does not have a specific sequence for the creation of the heavens and earth, and argues that this leaves the entire process of creation open to interpretation according to the current scientific theories.



Still, Bucaille interprets various Quranic verses to mirror scientific findings:[citation needed]

• He interprets the smoke mentioned in aya [Qur'an 41:11] as referring to the "gaseous state of the matter that made up the early Universe", which according to science was a primary Nebula. (147)
• He interprets aya [Qur'an 36:40] to refer to the moon travelling around the earth in an orbit. He contrasts this with Harlow Shapley's calculation of the distance between the Sun and the center of the galaxy and with his calculation that the sun travels at "roughly 150 miles per second" along its orbit. Boucailles claims that these discoveries, made only in 1917, were already contained in the Quran. (161)
• He argues that aya [Qur'an 51:47] could be translated as "The heaven, We have built it with power. Verily, We are expanding it." He sees this as confirmation of the theory of the Expansion of the universe.
• He considers the Water Cycle to be referred to in aya [Qur'an 23:18] and the following verse. (174)
• He also proposes that ayat [Qur'an 75:37], [Qur'an 86:6], [Qur'an 32:8], [Qur'an 77:20] refer to the existence of the sperm and that ayat [Qur'an 40:67] and [Qur'an 23:14] refer to its importance in conception. He argues that, based on the interpretation of these verses, the knowledge of Islamic scholars was superior to that of Western embryology, which he alleges until 1651 held that "all life initially comes from an egg". (207)
• He interprets aya [Qur'an6:125] to refer to the discomfort in breathing experienced at high altitudes due to lack of oxygen (183), a situation early Arabs are unlikely to have known about.

Maurice Bucaille - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

At a conference in Cairo he presented a research paper and stated:

"It has been a great pleasure for me to help clarify statements in the Qur'ân about human development. It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from God, or Allah, because most of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later. This proves to me that Muhammad must have been a messenger of God, or Allah." [1]

Professor Moore also stated that:

"...Because the staging of human embryos is complex, owing to the continuous process of change during development, it is proposed that a new system of classification could be developed using the terms mentioned in the Qur'ân and Sunnah. The proposed system is simple, comprehensive, and conforms with present embryological knowledge.

"...in summary, the Qur'ân describes not only the development of external form, but emphasises also the internal stages, the stages inside the embryo, of its creation and development, emphasising major events recognised by contemporary science."

E. Marshall Johnson

"Thinking where Muhammad came from... I think it is almost impossible that he could have known about things like the common origin of the universe, because scientists have only found out within the last few years with very complicated and advanced technological methods that this is the case."

"Somebody who did not know something about nuclear physics 1400 years ago could not, I think, be in a position to find out from his own mind for instance that the earth and the heavens had the same origin, or many others of the questions that we have discussed here.
Alfred Kroner

"I say, I am very much impressed by finding true astronomical facts in Qur'ân, and for us modern astronomers have been studying very small piece of the universe. We have concentrated our efforts for understanding of very small part. Because by using telescopes, we can see only very few parts of the sky without thinking about the whole universe. So by reading Qur'ân and by answering to the questions, I think I can find my future way for investigation of the universe."

Yushidi Kusan

"I find it very interesting that this sort of information is in the ancient scriptures of the Holy Qur'ân, and I have no way of knowing where they would have come from. But I think it is extremely interesting that they are there and this work is going on to discover it, the meaning of some of the passages."

And when he was asked about the source of the Qur'ân, he replied, "Well, I would think it must be the divine being."
William Hay

"In the last three years, I became interested in the Qur'ân... From my studies and what I have learned throughout this conference, I believe that everything that has been recorded in the Qur'ân fourteen hundred years ago must be the truth, that can be proved by the scientific means.

Tejatat Tejasen

"...our knowledge of these disciplines is such, that it is impossible to explain how a text produced at the time of the Qur'ân could have contained ideas that have only been discovered in modern times.

Dr. Maurice Bucaille

SCIENTISTS ON THE QURAN

 

[Tao_Equus]

Bob!! This is where you have been hiding Bob! Wondered where you got to Bob! And here you are Bob. Doing a bit of bobbing in and out of odd threads and I bob in here and find Bob!! Well just wanted to say Hi! Bob. And now I'l bob right back out again Bob. ....... Bob Oh Bob just one thing Bob. You really should respect Bucaille Bob. He was arse licker in chief to several ruling Arab/muslims Bob. Even, Bob, if his level of standing amongst 99.9% of western scientists is one of great hilarity and derision, Bob, he knew how to lick a Ryal muslim arse or 3. Got to give credit where credit is due Bob! Till next time Bob!!

Bob bye!

tao

 

[dailogue is the best]

Tao, you are attacking in favour of attacking, and your accusations to Dr. Bucaille are senseless. No scientist argues about the correctness of Dr. Bucaille's findings about science in the Quran.


Bob x, Tao adviced you to give credit where credit is due, and I advice you of the same.

 

[bob x]

No scientist argues about the correctness of Dr. Bucaille's findings about science in the Quran.

This is not just falsehood, this is anti-truth. I do not know of any scientist anywhere who would buy that really pathetic bunch of "findings".

You have no conception of what science is even about. Science is about precision of thought and observation. Finding vague words in some old book, and some way to interpret them to make them vaguely come out like some modern idea, is not at all like "science".

 

[dailogue is the best]

This is not just falsehood, this is anti-truth. I do not know of any scientist anywhere who would buy that really pathetic bunch of "findings".

You have no conception of what science is even about. Science is about precision of thought and observation. Finding vague words in some old book, and some way to interpret them to make them vaguely come out like some modern idea, is not at all like "science".

Hello, bob x

When I said findings, I simply meant Mr. Baucaille’s findings of the scientific facts in the Quran, and I didn’t mean science. He was very astonished to find out that what science has lately discovered is already mentioned in the Quran fourteen centuries earlier.

Some scientists, and Mr. Baucaille is one of them, were really astonished that what the Quran teaches about the creation of man, heaven, and earth goes hand with hand with science. They were even more surprised to find out that the Quran holds some facts that science has just lately discovered. The followings are some of those facts:

• He interprets the smoke mentioned in aya [Qur'an 41:11] as referring to the "gaseous state of the matter that made up the early Universe", which according to science was a primary Nebula. (147)

• He interprets aya [Qur'an 36:40] to refer to the moon travelling around the earth in an orbit. He contrasts this with Harlow Shapley's calculation of the distance between the Sun and the center of the galaxy and with his calculation that the sun travels at "roughly 150 miles per second" along its orbit. Boucailles claims that these discoveries, made only in 1917, were already contained in the Quran. (161)

• He argues that aya [Qur'an 51:47] could be translated as "The heaven, We have built it with power. Verily, We are expanding it." He sees this as confirmation of the theory of the Expansion of the universe.

• He considers the Water Cycle to be referred to in aya [Qur'an 23:18] and the following verse. (174)

• He also proposes that ayat [Qur'an 75:37], [Qur'an 86:6], [Qur'an 32:8], [Qur'an 77:20] refer to the existence of the sperm and that ayat [Qur'an 40:67] and [Qur'an 23:14] refer to its importance in conception. He argues that, based on the interpretation of these verses, the knowledge of Islamic scholars was superior to that of Western embryology, which he alleges until 1651 held that "all life initially comes from an egg". (207)

• He interprets aya [Qur'an6:125] to refer to the discomfort in breathing experienced at high altitudes due to lack of oxygen (183), a situation early Arabs are unlikely to have known about.

 

[Saltmeister]

If there is good, how can there not be evil?

If there was no evil, there could be no good.

If there are laws, there are criminals.

If there are no laws, there are no criminals.

If you make more laws, you make more criminals.

s.

Snoopy, I like your ideas!

Obviously, the most effective way to reduce the crime rate is cancel some of our laws. That is, to convince ourselves that certain crimes do not exist.

We close our eyes to the iniquities.

But I have to admit, it doesn't always work. Once when I played hide-and-seek and tried to hide by closing my eyes in an attempt to make myself disappear, I was the first person to be found by the seeker.

Ok, to be serious . . . yes, you need laws to set boundaries, to achieve a certain level of civility, to create a sense of common conscience among the people, but laws can also create "crimes" that are not really "crimes," but just a means for the ruling elite and the powers that be to control our lives. ie. taxes, laws that restrict what clothes you wear to create a sense of false modesty, laws that restrict the behaviour and appearance of men and women to exaggerate their differences or to create artificial gender differences and gender roles, laws that cause political ignorance (ie. media censorship of politically sensitive material), etc.

Sometimes, it's the people who make laws that are evil. There is no more effective way of exploiting the people for your own benefit and personal gain than creating laws that don't affect you, laws to which you have a personal immunity and through which you can gain fame, influence and wealth.

 

[YO-ELEVEN-11]

Snoopy, I like your ideas!

Obviously, the most effective way to reduce the crime rate is cancel some of our laws. That is, to convince ourselves that certain crimes do not exist.

We close our eyes to the iniquities.

But I have to admit, it doesn't always work. Once when I played hide-and-seek and tried to hide by closing my eyes in an attempt to make myself disappear, I was the first person to be found by the seeker.

Ok, to be serious . . . yes, you need laws to set boundaries, to achieve a certain level of civility, to create a sense of common conscience among the people, but laws can also create "crimes" that are not really "crimes," but just a means for the ruling elite and the powers that be to control our lives. ie. taxes, laws that restrict what clothes you wear to create a sense of false modesty, laws that restrict the behaviour and appearance of men and women to exaggerate their differences or to create artificial gender differences and gender roles, laws that cause political ignorance (ie. media censorship of politically sensitive material), etc.

Sometimes, it's the people who make laws that are evil. There is no more effective way of exploiting the people for your own benefit and personal gain than creating laws that don't affect you, laws to which you have a personal immunity and through which you can gain fame, influence and wealth.

Maybe detecting the "seed" of crime would help. A lot of behavior deemed criminal could be effectively eliminated using this method. I guess most industires that invest in "prisons" would not like that though. Too much money would be lost.
(Come on Down, you are the next contestant on the "The Price is right" )

(Hope This game show host is making alot of money on his investments)