prophets and salvation

dailogue is the best said:
Dor


Faithfulservant


Seattlegal


So, it isnt necessary to believe in Jesus as a Savior to be saved. It is sufficient to believe in God, and do good. (faith and work)

For those who believe that salvation comes only through believing in Jesus as a Savior. Then, why didnt God send Jesus as the first prophet so that all the coming prophets and believers got salvation?! Do you think that God changed "His mind": He sent the prophets with the message of worshiping God only. While, He sent Jesus with the massage of worshiping God, Jesus, and Holy Spirit?!! Why is this change?!!
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No not quite.. having faith is basically believing without seeing or without proof. Maybe even believing when the proof says otherwise..

They believed in the coming Messiah the promised one.. the redeemer.. You are trying to fit Christianity and the Bible into your Islamic box. I understand that you are looking for some way that we got it wrong to prove Islam right. Im sorry friend it will not work. Jesus was alive and well in the Old Testament.. He was just not called Jesus yet. He was there in the beginning as the Word. He walked with Adam and Eve. He wrestled with Jacob. He spoke with Moses. He spoke and ate with Abraham and Sarah. He was there as GOD YHWH Elohim El Shaddai .... all of the above... as well as the Lord and the Angel of the Lord (angel means messanger btw) and He became Man and was also God so that the world could be saved through Him.

God Bless you on your journey Dialogue.
 
Blind faith is not enough. Muslims have blind faith in their Prophet. Catholics taught Christians to put blind faith in the Pope as ultimate spiritual authority on earth. Fundamentalist Christians have blind faith in the words of the New Testament, never questioning the fact the books they received are the Roman Catholic Churchmen's selection and edited out at least one whole stream of early Christian thought, those seen in the Gospel of Thomas and the latter gnostic texts of the 2nd and 3rd centuries A.D. My point is blind faith does not produce wisdom of discernment. Knowledge is necessary to make distinctions between the words and agendas of men and those of God.
 
I dont like the term "blind faith" That is not what Im talking about. I would probably correctly use that term when speaking of man but Im anything but believing blindly in God. God has done nothing to betray my trust He has never lied to me He has given me a book that is so completely honest in telling His will for my life.. He speaks to me in other ways to reveal to me His unknown will.. He manifests Himself in my life every single day. BECAUSE I believe Him. That is not blind. He is more real to me than YOU are through this little bit of text made up of pixles. I can look out at nature or watch a documentary about the human body and be taught about Him through His creation. He is so much more apparent to me than anything I know. I hope I conveyed what is in my heart accurately because I feel strongly about the whole blind faith thing.
 
Faithfulservant said:
I dont like the term "blind faith" That is not what Im talking about. I would probably correctly use that term when speaking of man but Im anything but believing blindly in God. God has done nothing to betray my trust He has never lied to me He has given me a book that is so completely honest in telling His will for my life.. He speaks to me in other ways to reveal to me His unknown will.. He manifests Himself in my life every single day. BECAUSE I believe Him. That is not blind. He is more real to me than YOU are through this little bit of text made up of pixles. I can look out at nature or watch a documentary about the human body and be taught about Him through His creation. He is so much more apparent to me than anything I know. I hope I conveyed what is in my heart accurately because I feel strongly about the whole blind faith thing.
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And I feel just as strongly that I cannot put my faith in the words of ancient men about Jesus Christ selected for me by Roman Catholic Church men. They left out the Gospel of Thomas for starters, and right there is proof positive of man's tampering with spiritual information. You know about Jesus' warning us not to follow the words of men for God is a Spirit. If you let ancient words about Jesus and God become an idol where you cannot worship God without them, what is that? What have you? What if you're a native on an island that's never seen a bible in your life but you're a good person, do good all your life. What about that?

God is God of the living, not the dead. I use the ancient texts as guides to how God appeared to ancient men's minds and try to see things as they saw them in order to understand the words they wrote. But God is God of the living and we have to move on in our understanding of God and what God wants of us. For me, because I am an intellectual for whom faith and science must coincide or else they are not of God in my belief, I look at the bible texts for knowledge of God as that is how I learn about how God is working in our present. Probably not too different from you..;)
 
sonoman said:
And I feel just as strongly that I cannot put my faith in the words of ancient men about Jesus Christ selected for me by Roman Catholic Church men. They left out the Gospel of Thomas for starters, and right there is proof positive of man's tampering with spiritual information. You know about Jesus' warning us not to follow the words of men for God is a Spirit. If you let ancient words about Jesus and God become an idol where you cannot worship God without them, what is that? What have you? What if you're a native on an island that's never seen a bible in your life but you're a good person, do good all your life. What about that?

God is God of the living, not the dead. I use the ancient texts as guides to how God appeared to ancient men's minds and try to see things as they saw them in order to understand the words they wrote. But God is God of the living and we have to move on in our understanding of God and what God wants of us. For me, because I am an intellectual for whom faith and science must coincide or else they are not of God in my belief, I look at the bible texts for knowledge of God as that is how I learn about how God is working in our present. Probably not too different from you..;)
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Hmmm, the "coptics" who pre-date the Catholic church by two hundred years, left Thomas out of the loop as well, and Peter, and Mary and Mary M, and the infancy Gospels...

But those apocrypha are around for anyone to read. They just aren't part of the biblia.

But then, you already "know" this.:)
 
sonoman said:
And I feel just as strongly that I cannot put my faith in the words of ancient men about Jesus Christ selected for me by Roman Catholic Church men. They left out the Gospel of Thomas for starters, and right there is proof positive of man's tampering with spiritual information. You know about Jesus' warning us not to follow the words of men for God is a Spirit. If you let ancient words about Jesus and God become an idol where you cannot worship God without them, what is that? What have you? What if you're a native on an island that's never seen a bible in your life but you're a good person, do good all your life. What about that?

God is God of the living, not the dead. I use the ancient texts as guides to how God appeared to ancient men's minds and try to see things as they saw them in order to understand the words they wrote. But God is God of the living and we have to move on in our understanding of God and what God wants of us. For me, because I am an intellectual for whom faith and science must coincide or else they are not of God in my belief, I look at the bible texts for knowledge of God as that is how I learn about how God is working in our present. Probably not too different from you..;)
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Theres a difference between you and I and our faiths.... My God is personal to me and we have a relationship. I do not dictate that relationship... or look for it to suit me and my purposes. Its all about Him and His glory. I just accept it and open my life and heart to Him. Its submitting to something other than yourself something greater His throne. That is the joy of worship.. giving him the glory and honor that belongs to Him..

[FONT=arial,helvetica,verdana] [/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica,verdana]Isaiah 40:8, "The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever."[/FONT]
 
Quahom1 said:
He is the Son of God (He is God).

v/r

Q
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:D so which is it , son of God ,or God .


if we go to the bible we can find out
LUKE 9;35
And a voice came out of the cloud, saying: "This is my Son, the one that has been chosen. Listen to him."

The bible always sets us straight .

 
Faithfulservant said:
You are trying to fit Christianity and the Bible into your Islamic box. I understand that you are looking for some way that we got it wrong to prove Islam right. Im sorry friend it will not work. Jesus was alive and well in the Old Testament.. He was just not called Jesus yet. He was there in the beginning as the Word. He walked with Adam and Eve. He wrestled with Jacob. He spoke with Moses. He spoke and ate with Abraham and Sarah. He was there as GOD YHWH Elohim El Shaddai .... all of the above... as well as the Lord and the Angel of the Lord (angel means messanger btw) and He became Man and was also God so that the world could be saved through Him.

God Bless you on your journey Dialogue.
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haha....how clever you are, Faithfulservant.:):D

The issue isnt as you thought, Faithfulservant. I simply perssumed that most of you know the Islamic view about the Trinity. Now, I m just trying trying to analyse the matter from a rational, objective point of view.

How the world could be saved through Jesus only, while all the prophets came with one and the same message: to worship God only!!! if God is Jesus then why didnt He declared Himself from the first message as three!!! I can understand that the world can be saved through Jesus in the sense that the mesage he came with (worshiping God only) is what we should we stick to in order to be saved. In that sense, I can see that all prophets and those who believed with them can be saved since they all came with same message.(worshiping God and doing good)

May God bless you, too, Faithfulservant, throughout all your life.

PS: by the way your posts about the personal relationship with God, and the meditation in His creation and creatures, and feeling of His presence are really touching and impressive. Your nice emotions are nicely conveyed.
 
Faithfulservant said:
Theres a difference between you and I and our faiths.... My God is personal to me and we have a relationship. I do not dictate that relationship... or look for it to suit me and my purposes. Its all about Him and His glory. I just accept it and open my life and heart to Him. Its submitting to something other than yourself something greater His throne. That is the joy of worship.. giving him the glory and honor that belongs to Him..

[FONT=arial,helvetica,verdana]Isaiah 40:8, "The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever."[/FONT]
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Same for me, Faithfulservant. I have a personal relationship with Father and I certainly do not dictate that relationship or look for it to suit my purposes, whatever they are. I think it's called "belief in God";)
 
dailogue is the best said:
haha....how clever you are, Faithfulservant.:):D

The issue isnt as you thought, Faithfulservant. I simply perssumed that most of you know the Islamic view about the Trinity. Now, I m just trying trying to analyse the matter from a rational, objective point of view.

How the world could be saved through Jesus only, while all the prophets came with one and the same message: to worship God only!!! if God is Jesus then why didnt He declared Himself from the first message as three!!! I can understand that the world can be saved through Jesus in the sense that the mesage he came with (worshiping God only) is what we should we stick to in order to be saved. In that sense, I can see that all prophets and those who believed with them can be saved since they all came with same message.(worshiping God and doing good)

May God bless you, too, Faithfulservant, throughout all your life.

PS: by the way your posts about the personal relationship with God, and the meditation in His creation and creatures, and feeling of His presence are really touching and impressive. Your nice emotions are nicely conveyed.
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Jesus was worshiped at His birth. They all fell down and worshiped Him and do you think that if that wasnt supposed to happen and the angels that were present would not have stopped it? The New Testament says many times that people fell down and worshiped Jesus and He never stopped them because it was as it was supposed to be.

Thank you for your compliment :)
 
sonoman said:
Same for me, Faithfulservant. I have a personal relationship with Father and I certainly do not dictate that relationship or look for it to suit my purposes, whatever they are. I think it's called "belief in God";)
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No insult intended :) I just thought read alot of "me me me" in your posts so I assumed wrongly
 
Faithfulservant said:
Jesus was worshiped at His birth. They all fell down and worshiped Him and do you think that if that wasnt supposed to happen and the angels that were present would not have stopped it? The New Testament says many times that people fell down and worshiped Jesus and He never stopped them because it was as it was supposed to be.

Thank you for your compliment :)
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Felling down doesnt necessarily signify worshipping, Faithfulservant. Even Joseph's brothers fell down to him. Felling down signifies deep respect and appreciation, and submission to one's message. It was an old habit that people fell down to kings and rulers. Felling down doesnt necessarily signify worshipping.

We should analyse what Jesus himself said. If salvation is achieved only through believing in Jesus as a Savior, and not in God only. Then, why didnt God declared Himself as three from the very beginning, and sent all His prophets with this message so all people could get saved?!!

It is true that Jesus is a savior. and so was Abraham, Moses and all the prophets. They are saviors because they came with God's message to save us.

PS: you are welcome, Faithfulservant. Your words really touched my heart. It isnt a compliment.
 
dailogue is the best said:
Felling down doesnt necessarily signify worshipping, Faithfulservant. Even Joseph's brothers fell down to him. Felling down signifies deep respect and appreciation, and submission to one's message. It was an old habit that people fell down to kings and rulers. Felling down doesnt necessarily signify worshipping.

We should analyse what Jesus himself said. If salvation is achieved only through believing in Jesus as a Savior, and not in God only. Then, why didnt God declared Himself as three from the very beginning, and sent all His prophets with this message so all people could get saved?!!

It is true that Jesus is a savior. and so was Abraham, Moses and all the prophets. They are saviors because they came with God's message to save us.

PS: you are welcome, Faithfulservant. Your words really touched my heart. It isnt a compliment.
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Dialogue Im listing several instances where Jesus was worshiped and not once does He say Do not worship me even though one of the 10 commandments is Do NOT worship any other Gods. If He is as you say just a prophet of God would He tell them not to worship Him?? Yes He would unless He knew He was worthy of worship being the only begotten Son of the Living God.

Another question you must ask yourself.. Why would every single man that discipled under Jesus Christ submit to horrible horrible deaths if they did not believe He was GOD? All they had to do was tell their tormenters that Jesus was not GOD and they would not have died. They did not do that because they believe without a shadow of a doubt that Jesus Christ was the Son of God.

mt 2:11 mother, and fell down and worshiped Him. And when they had opened their treasures, they presented gifts to Him: gold, frankincense, and myrrh.
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Mt 8:2 -
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]And behold, a leper came and worshiped Him, saying, "Lord, if You are willing, You can make me clean." [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Mt 9:18 -
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]While He spoke these things to them, behold, a ruler came and worshiped Him, saying, "My daughter has just died, but come and lay Your hand on her and she will live." [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Mt 14:33 -
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Then those who were in the boat came and worshiped Him, saying, "Truly You are the Son of God." [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Mt 15:25 -
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, "Lord, help me!" [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Mt 28:9 -
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]And as they went to tell His disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, "Rejoice!" So they came and held Him by the feet and worshiped Him. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Mt 28:17 -
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Mr 5:6 -
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]When he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and worshiped Him. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Mr 15:19 -
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Then they struck Him on the head with a reed and spat on Him; and bowing the knee, they worshiped Him. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Lu 24:52 -
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]And they worshiped Him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy, [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Joh 9:38 -
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Then he said, "Lord, I believe!" And he worshiped Him.

[/FONT]Peace and Love in Christ Jesus

FS

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]

[/FONT]
 
Faithfulservant said:
No insult intended :) I just thought read alot of "me me me" in your posts so I assumed wrongly
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You're not the first to mistake my tiny ego for the Goodyear Blimp. It's that I am chuck full of all this accumulated information about our Christian religion plus I've got a load of pushy Jewish genes that just will not shut up!;)
 
lunamoth said:
Hi DiB, Not meaning to intrude, but I think perhaps you meant to say that your words are a compliment, but not empty flattery. I'm sure FS will know what you mean though. :)

luna
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Thank you for your "intrusion":), Luna. You saved me from being misunderstood. My English isnt my 1st language, and sometimes I get misunderstood because of this. I really thought a compliment means empty flattery. Thank you, again, Luna, for correction and for the information,too:):).
 
sonoman said:
You're not the first to mistake my tiny ego for the Goodyear Blimp. It's that I am chuck full of all this accumulated information about our Christian religion plus I've got a load of pushy Jewish genes that just will not shut up!;)
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That explains it then.. *wink*

2 Corinthians 3:7-17
But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious. Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech— unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.
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Faithfulservant said:
Dialogue Im listing several instances where Jesus was worshiped and not once does He say Do not worship me even though one of the 10 commandments is Do NOT worship any other Gods. If He is as you say just a prophet of God would He tell them not to worship Him?? Yes He would unless He knew He was worthy of worship being the only begotten Son of the Living God.
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Yes, you are true in your questions. Why didnt Jesus say to those who believed in him not to worship him? a reasonable question, Faithfulservant. YET, if I assume that it means that it indicates Jesus's declaration of himself as God, then I m infringing Jesus's teaching which are clearly declaring that we should worship God only:

"Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them; and he said to him, ‘All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me (proskuneesees moi).’ Then Jesus said to him, ‘Begone, Satan! for it is written, "You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.' Matthew 4:8-10

How can we prefer our interpretation over Jesus' teachings?!!

Another question you must ask yourself.. Why would every single man that discipled under Jesus Christ submit to horrible horrible deaths if they did not believe He was GOD? All they had to do was tell their tormenters that Jesus was not GOD and they would not have died. They did not do that because they believe without a shadow of a doubt that Jesus Christ was the Son of God.
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All those who believed with the prophets were subject to untold torture in order to forsake their faith, but they didnt, and they kept stick to their religions because their faith was very firm. And so were Jesus' disciplines. They resisted because they believed that Jesus is the prophet of God. Hence, giving up their faith was impossible for it would have meant giving their belief in God.


mt 2:11
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mother, and fell down and worshiped Him. And when they had opened their treasures, they presented gifts to Him: gold, frankincense, and myrrh.
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Mt 8:2 -[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]And behold, a leper came and worshiped Him, saying, "Lord, if You are willing, You can make me clean." [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Mt 9:18 - [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]While He spoke these things to them, behold, a ruler came and worshiped Him, saying, "My daughter has just died, but come and lay Your hand on her and she will live." [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Mt 14:33 - [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Then those who were in the boat came and worshiped Him, saying, "Truly You are the Son of God." [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Mt 15:25 - [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, "Lord, help me!" [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Mt 28:9 - [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]And as they went to tell His disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, "Rejoice!" So they came and held Him by the feet and worshiped Him. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Mt 28:17 - [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Mr 5:6 - [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]When he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and worshiped Him. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Mr 15:19 - [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Then they struck Him on the head with a reed and spat on Him; and bowing the knee, they worshiped Him. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Lu 24:52 - [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]And they worshiped Him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy, [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Joh 9:38 - [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Then he said, "Lord, I believe!" And he worshiped Him. [/FONT]
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Thank you for providing me with thses scriptures, FS. But, all thses scriptures arent an evidence that Jesus is God. Throughout the NT, we find scriptures where David was worshiped, too. but why didnt you say of his being God?!!

Hence, we can see that worship is a sign of showing respect, obeisance, and honor.

How can we neglect what is clearly declared by Jesus himself, and depend on ourselves in interpreting things?!!
 
luke 9;35 says it all really


And a voice came out of the cloud, saying: "This is my Son, the one that has been chosen. Listen to him.


did the voice say this is me ,or this is God , no he said this is MY SON


Jesus is GODS SON he is not God , but people have not listened to the words of the true God have they, they even say that Jesus is God :(


mee listens to Jesus, he said the following

My Father is greater than I.
John 14:28,

Furthermore, if Jehovah and Jesus were the same, how could one of them be aware of things of which the other was not?

Jesus, for instance, said regarding the time of the world’s judgment: "Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father."—Mark 13:32.

stick to what the bible REALLY teaches and we will not be led astray to believe manmade things


 
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