Jealousy

[seattlegal]

Earlier, Vaj started a thread about Anger, and how to deal with it and purify it, open to both Buddhist and other perspectives. Later, I started a similar one regarding Desire. Both threads contained elements from Five Buddha Wisdom Families, which teaches that the purification of anger leads to mirror-like wisdom, and the purification of desire leads to discerning or discriminating wisdom. Following along this teaching, the purification of jealousy leads to all-accomplishing wisdom.

When Dream posted this on another thread, I figured it was time to continue on to this subject of purified (or divine) jealousy:

2 Corinthians 10:17--2 Corinthians 11:7
"Let him who boasts, boast of the Lord." For it is not the man who commends himself that is accepted, but the man whom the Lord commends. I wish you would bear with me in a little foolishness. Do bear with me! I feel a divine jealousy for you, for I betrothed you to Christ to present you as a pure bride to her one husband. But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ. For if some one comes and preaches another Jesus than the one we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you submit to it readily enough. I think that I am not in the least inferior to these superlative apostles. Even if I am skilled in speaking, I am not in knowledge; in every way we have made this plain to you in all things. Did I commit a sin in abasing myself so that you might be exalted, because I preached God's gospel without cost to you?

Here, this divine jealousy seems to include both protection and the removal of obstacles that might impede another's progress. Compare this to what the Tibetan Buddhist teaching is regarding the purification of jealousy, signified by Buddha Amoghasiddhi:

Buddha Amoghasiddhi is realization of all-accomplishing wisdom. The Tibetan word for Buddha Amoghasiddhi is sangay donyodtrubpa. The word danyod means “meaningful” and the word trubpa means “accomplishment.” So Buddha Amogha-siddhi means “whatever is meaningful and fruitful is accomplished.” He is also the complete purification of jealousy, which is a hindrance for both material and spiritual success. His activity is perfect accomplishment and fulfillment of meaningful aims. Furthermore, his activity removes ordinary daily hindrances such as illnesses and obstacles. This is why Amogha-siddhi’s activity is meaningful accomplishment.
Buddha Amoghasiddhi holds a double-vajra in the form of a cross in his left hand, which symbolizes that his activity pervades and touches all directions. He sits in the full lotus posture. The left hand of all five dhayani Buddhas rests in the meditative posture of the changeless realization of dharmata. Amoghasiddhi’s right hand is in the mudra of fearless protection. He protects all living beings from any mishaps, obstacles, and negative influences. Thus his posture is known as “the mudra of fearless protection.” Amoghasiddhi is green, resides in the north, and holds a sword representing the cutting of existence.​

Interesting, to say the least.

Anyway, what are your thoughts regarding jealousy, how you deal with it, and how it might be optimized?

 

[Nick the Pilot]

SG,

We are really discussing two different topics here, jealousy and the more general topic of our total emotional needs.

Jealousy

Jealousy is a hugely complicated topic. I spend a great deal of this past summer analyzing my jealousy from many different aspects. We could definitely have a long, involved discussion about jealousy.

Our total emotional needs

Anger has been discussed in another thread. This is a thread on jealousy. (I suppose next would be a thread on depression.) However, to get to the core of the problem, we need to discuss the more general topic of our total emotional needs. For example, every time I came up with an answer to a specific problem within the area of jealousy, the answer was always for us to improve our level of general emotional happiness. Are you interested in a discussion on this broader, comparatively more important topic?

 

[Netti-Netti]

every time I came up with an answer to a specific problem within the area of jealousy, the answer was always for us to improve our level of general emotional happiness.

Hi Nick the Pilot.

Maybe we can revisit the The Art of Happiness thread....

One of the more interesting bits came from the Anupada Sutta about the effects of emotional awareness. Talking about emotions:

Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided.

http://www.interfaith.org/forum/the-art-of-happiness-9084-7.html#post152511

​

 

[Nick the Pilot]

NN,

This is an important topic, so, yes, anything we can find on happiness would be important to discuss. I reminded what a great psychic once told me -- that we must get rid of all of our emotional garbage before we can achieve enlightenment. I completely agree with her.

Would you describe yourself as 'emotionally stable', or as 'needy'?

 

[Netti-Netti]

Would you describe yourself as 'emotionally stable', or as 'needy'?

These descriptors are not on the same dimension, so an either/or doesn't ring true with me.

 

[seattlegal]

SG,

We are really discussing two different topics here, jealousy and the more general topic of our total emotional needs.

Jealousy

Jealousy is a hugely complicated topic. I spend a great deal of this past summer analyzing my jealousy from many different aspects. We could definitely have a long, involved discussion about jealousy.

Well then let's get discussing!

Anger has been discussed in another thread. This is a thread on jealousy. (I suppose next would be a thread on depression.)

Actually to complete the five Buddha wisdom families, pride and ignorance would remain to be discussed.

However, to get to the core of the problem, we need to discuss the more general topic of our total emotional needs. For example, every time I came up with an answer to a specific problem within the area of jealousy, the answer was always for us to improve our level of general emotional happiness. Are you interested in a discussion on this broader, comparatively more important topic?

The kleshas, and strategies for how to deal with them? Sure. (The optimization of jealousy is about removing obstacles, after all.)

 

[Netti-Netti]

Well then let's get discussing!

After you. It's your topic SG!

 

[seattlegal]

After you. It's your topic SG!

Alrighty, then.

One aspect of jealousy, coveting, can be overcome by cultivating the sublime state of mudita, or sympathetic joy. It is much more constructive to be happy for the success of others than it is to be resentful of the success of others.

The fearless protection of others reminds me of a mother shielding her child against harm. By working towards a nurturing attitude towards others, it helps people to cooperate together. When people cooperate with the correct attitude and actions, much can be accomplished.

 

[Netti-Netti]

Alrighty, then.

One aspect of jealousy, coveting, can be overcome by cultivating the sublime state of mudita, or sympathetic joy. It is much more constructive to be happy for the success of others than it is to be resentful of the success of others.

Sympathetic joy as an antidote makes sense. Buddhists seem to link jealousy to competition.

The fearless protection of others reminds me of a mother shielding her child against harm. By working towards a nurturing attitude towards others, it helps people to cooperate together.

According to some psychoanalysts, identification is a defense against jealousy.

When people cooperate with the correct attitude and actions, much can be accomplished.

It's also preemptive. If you cooperate, there is less reason to fear retaliation for aggressive drives.

Jealousy is probably grounded in a faulty idea of completion of self through what another person has in the way of wealth, status, skills.

 

[seattlegal]

According to some psychoanalysts, identification is a defense against jealousy.

Analogous to the transference that occurs in the 'shoot the messenger' type scenerios?

 

[Netti-Netti]

Analogous to the transference that occurs in the 'shoot the messenger' type scenarios?

Could be.

At some level I don't see a whole lot of difference between jealousy, greed, and anger. They all involve emotional attachments and spring from grasping and clinging. The thing that seems unique about jealousy is that its focus is fairly specific - usually a limited field of objects: what other people have in the way of possessions, abilities, status, power, etc.

The other thing that seems to be unique about jealousy is the way it shapes overt behavior. We usually link jealousy to possessiveness. The Buddhist discussions I've seen link it to strong competitive drives or a desire to "best" others put them in their place, trick them, fool them, tempt and reject them, undermine them, humiliate them, etc. Basically the idea is to neutralize the other as sources of negative social comparisons. I'd say that's a shoot the messenger' scenario.

 

[seattlegal]

Could be.

At some level I don't see a whole lot of difference between jealousy, greed, and anger, and jealousy. They all involve emotitional attachments and spring from grasping and clinging. The thing that seems uninue about jealousy is that its focus is specific - usually a limited field of objects: what other people have in the way of possession, abilities, status, power, etc.

The main thing that seems to be unique about jealousy is the way it shapes overt behavior. We usually link jealousy to possessiveness. The Buddhist discussions I've seen link it to strong competitive drives or a desire to "best" others put them in their place, trick them, fool them, tempt and reject them, undermine them, humiliate them, etc. Basically the idea is to neutralize the other as sources of negative social comparisons. I'd say that's a shoot the messenger' scenario.

I would agree. Jealousy has the greatest capacity to motivate people to violence and other harmful behaviour, and cause people to suppress any natural compassion they have in the process, giving the capacity for cruelty, imo. It can linger longer than anger and desire, and the transference/identification quality to it can enable it to spread to other people in much the same way that sympathetic joy can spread.

 

[Netti-Netti]

Jealousy has the greatest capacity to motivate people to violence and other harmful behaviour, and cause people to supress any natural compassion they have in the process, giving the capacity for cruelty, imo.

Yes.

It can linger longer than anger and desire, and the transference/identification quality to it can enable it to spread to other people in much the same way that sympathetic joy can spread.

Indeed it can be chronic rather than episodic.

The long-term obsessive quality would manifest as an ongoing concern with establishing one's superiority or making an impression on the world. This preoccupation has been linked to a kind of paranoia. The paranoia derives from the fact that the person thinks everyone else is up to the same kind of thing (always trying to "best" others put them in their place, fool them, humiliate them etc.) The resulting scenario is one of perpetually doing battle rather than building trusting relationships. Predictably, loneliness is often the result.

 

[seattlegal]

The long-term obsessive quality would manifest as an ongoing concern with establishing one's superiority or making an impression on the world. This preoccupation has been linked to a kind of paranoia. The paranoia derives from the fact that the person thinks everyone else is up to the same kind of thing (always trying to "best" others put them in their place, fool them, humiliate them etc.)

The one who does not trust often being untrustworthy?

The resulting scenario is one of perpetually doing battle rather than building trusting relationships. Predictably, loneliness is often the result.

Perhaps building trustworthiness in oneself might be a good place to start in overcoming such a problem?

 

[Netti-Netti]

Perhaps building trustworthiness in oneself might be a good place to start in overcoming such a problem?

I meant to add that people may try to dissolve the jealousy by developing contempt and cynicism. These help maintain distrust but at the same time they introduce more emotional poison into the system as well as confusion about values and goals. The confusion can interfere with the expression of healthy autonomy as well the natural capacity for compassion, as you point out.

Another thing: the experience of jealousy is like being continually confronted with one's incompleteness and lack.

Understandably, it's kinda hard to build trustworthiness in oneself when the system is unsettled.

 

[seattlegal]

I meant to add that people may try to dissolve the jealousy by developing contempt and cynicism. These help maintain distrust but at the same time they introduce more emotional poison into the system as well as confusion about values and goals. The confusion can interfere with the expression of healthy autonomy as well the natural capacity for compassion, as you point out.

Another thing: the experience of jealousy is like being continually confronted with one's incompleteness and lack.

Understandably, it's kinda hard to build trustworthiness in oneself when the system is unsettled.

Yes, being a self-feeding cycle can explain how it can become chronic.

I guess having faith (related to trust) in reciprocity--being trustworthy and helping others overcome their obstacles and when they are weak will lead to others helping you when you are weak may be another way to break this cycle.

I can see how Buddha Amoghasiddhi is associated with the karma family.

 

[Netti-Netti]

I can see how Buddha Amoghasiddhi is associated with the karma family.

We should look into the "Jealous g-d Realm" - aka the Realm of Asuras, which is one of the Six Bardos in Tibetan Buddhism.

 

[seattlegal]

According to some psychoanalysts, identification is a defense against jealousy.

from dictionary.com

identification

4.Psychology.

• a. a process by which one ascribes to oneself the qualities or characteristics of another person.
  [*]b. (in psychoanalytic theory) the transference or reaction to one person with the feelings or responses relevant to another, as the identification of a teacher with a parent.
  
  [*]c. perception of another as an extension of oneself.

We should look into the "Jealous g-d Realm" - aka the Realm of Asuras, which is one of the Six Bardos in Tibetan Buddhism.

I remember Vaj saying something about a being associating itself with the creator God cannot be the creator...hmm.

 

[17th Angel]

Jealousy is a self consuming implosion.. I should know I am an expert on the experience of it. How do I deal with it? I don't any longer because I realised this... Oh and also grew up.

 

[Netti-Netti]

Jealousy is a self consuming implosion.. I should know I am an expert on the experience of it. How do I deal with it? I don't any longer because I realised this... Oh and also grew up.

I think awareness of it changes it completely - as you found out.