What next?

[Operacast]

Even if we do elect Obama, and even if millions are thrilled and relieved by that, we cannot forget that we have

A) engaged openly in torture,

B) desecrated our founding documents,

C) dissed the U.N.,

D) did an unprovoked invasion,

E) did warrantless wiretaps,

F) allowed one whole city to be flooded,

G) lost the store at the stock market,

H) sent other economies plummeting,

I) dissed the International Criminal Court,

J) dissed the Kyoto treaty,

K) dissed the Geneva Conventions,

L) incarcerated without trial, and

M) dissed the rules of evidence.

Once done, can any or all of this ever be made really right? How long will it take Germany to live down the Holocaust?

Operacast

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste operacast,

thank you for the post.

i presume that you are speaking for yourself.

A) engaged openly in torture,

you should stop doing this immediately! since i've never tortured anyone i am pretty sure this doesn't apply to me.

B) desecrated our founding documents,

i actually have a copy of them in a book which stays upon my bookself until read. i've not done anything to the documents. in fact, i would be hard pressed to think of anyone that actually touched them, let alone descrated them. of course the idea of desecration is really only apropos for religious and holy objects, neither of which the Constitution or Declaration of Independence are.

C) dissed the U.N.,

i don't much care for the U.N., you are right about that. i frequenly disparage the corruption and graft that takes place therein and wonder at how such a body can remain legitmate in the regions of the world where the U.N. has deployed peacekeepers.

D) did an unprovoked invasion,

which invasion are you speaking of?

E) did warrantless wiretaps,

interesting. was there some policy or law in place which allowed for this to happen?

F) allowed one whole city to be flooded,

why didn't you prevent it? i can assure you that i didn't allow anyplace to be flooded, let alone a whole city. if you are suggesting that you could have stopped the hurricane but didn't then you have far more control over nature than i ever figured humans could have.

G) lost the store at the stock market,

what did you do to the stock market?!

H) sent other economies plummeting,

interconnected economies tends to have that effect if things go sour and when things go well other economies prosper. strange thing this globalisation.

I) dissed the International Criminal Court,

i don't know much about them one way or the other. i can't say that i've dissed them or even given much thought to them.

J) dissed the Kyoto treaty,

yeah.. i think that treaty is flawed as well.

K) dissed the Geneva Conventions,

why would you do that? i certainly didn't and if you would have been with me i would have made sure that you didn't either.

L) incarcerated without trial,

whom have you incarcerated?!

Once done, can any or all of this ever be made really right? How long will it take Germany to live down the Holocaust?

Operacast

not all Nazis are German and not all Germans are Nazis'. demonising an entire nation for the actions of people whom are not alive is not really a manner in which constructive dialog can take place. do you still consider all Americans as colonists and invaders taking the land from the First People?

metta,

~v

 

[greymare]

Umm, Operacast, 2 questions.......
1. Are you american
2. if so, why do you hate your country so much?
(Im sorry if i seem to offend, but thats just how it seems to me.......)

 

[Snoopy]

Even if we do elect Obama,

...

Once done, can any or all of this ever be made really right? How long will it take Germany to live down the Holocaust?

Operacast

Whatever has been done by the peoples of a country in the past it cannot be changed.

Most people accept that Germany has done all it can to atone for that terrible episode.

You can only live in the present, learn from the past and look to the future, whoever is elected.

s.

 

[Operacast]

Namaste operacast,

thank you for the post.

i presume that you are speaking for yourself.

That is not cute. I am

A) speaking for myself as a U.S. citizen who resides in New York, and

B) I am using "we" because my parents taught me that it was "We the people" who are the government of this country.

That means that when my country does things of which I am ashamed, I am not innocent of the guilt and I partake in the crime whether I wish to or not.

My country paid in blood and treasure countless times over to bring freedom to people who were trapped in colonies brutally oppressed by King George. We inspired peoples everywhere to believe in humans -- not just humanity, but humans -- as each having the same inherent dignity that every pampered monarch had ever been accorded. That idea of liberty and equality submitted solemnly to all the world out of a "decent respect to the opinions of mankind" sparked changes throughout the globe, not quick enough to bring any instant utopia for humanity, but quick enough to transform the very idea of liberty from a whispered hope to a passion that dared speak its name from the rooftops. Our Constitution set a standard for the rule of law over even the mightiest of the mighty. Law and due process were more sacred now than the "sacred" right of kings after all. At the dawn of the new century, a court justice showed even a President that the law now stood over everyone without exception. Then, two generations later, countless lives were sacrificed to rid my country of the hideous stigma of slavery. The next century, we finally gave women the right to vote. And then we recognized the right to freedom from want and freedom from fear. And then countless more lives were sacrificed to prevent more than half the world being overtaken by fascism. Laws were conceived from the rubble of Nuremberg to defend the dignity of every human being, no matter their creed or nation, and to protect each and every person from arbitrary and cruel sequestration. And we subscribed to strengthened Geneva Conventions against unspeakable treatment of all prisoners, while a brave bereaved widow led the way in transforming a shredded League of Nations into the United Nations. Yet more lives were sacrificed in church bombings and in angry streets as we sought to redress the horrible inheritance of slavery. A man of peace and vision, and a very different King from King George, gave us his dream on a bright summer day, only to be martyred upon achieving a small precious part of that dream.

You can guffaw all you like, you can call this corny all you like, but the blood, sweat and tears shed at each and every one of these hurdles have sanctified -- yes, sanctified -- each of these achievements. They are sacred to me, and they are still sacred to millions of shocked and bewildered people throughout this country today. Of course, there have been betrayals of these principles in the past. Of course, our story has reflected the common moral frailties of all humanity. But the struggles against those very frailties have made the achievements that overcame those frailties yet more precious.

Now, we have a new King George. This King George brings war to people who never attacked us. This King George places the mightiest of the mighty above the law. This King George desecrates our Constitution. This King George traduces the rights to freedom from want and freedom from fear. This King George brings us something so close to fascism that its difference from fascism is scarcely worth a second thought. This King George takes people off the street and arbitrarily sequestrates them without due process and indefinitely. This King George throws out the Geneva Conventions and tortures prisoners. And this King George rejects any decent respect to the opinions of mankind as he betrays our solemn heritage in the United Nations and in the entire global community.

Unless you live here, and live in a city where countless international visitors are seen every day, and unless you have to look these visitors in the eye every day and say "Yes, I live here; yes, I'm an American", you will never know what real burning shame truly feels like. -- May you never know what real burning shame truly feels like.

I refer you to the Book of Jonah: 3:6 - 3:9.

Operacast

 

[Snoopy]

Unless you live here, and live in a city where countless international visitors are seen every day, and unless you have to look these visitors in the eye every day and say "Yes, I live here; yes, I'm an American", you will never know what real burning shame truly feels like. -- May you never know what real burning shame truly feels like.

I hear what you say but the individual is not the country Operacast. I am not King Gerorge, I am not Margaret Thatcher...

And on the bright side I read only today from one of your very own comedians that if Obama wins it means you'll be able to travel abroad and not have to pretend you're a Canadian anymore.

s.

 

[Eclectic Mystic]

I suppose the argument is that since this is a democracy, "we" are indeed responsible. But then that leads to other discussions.

 

[Pathless]

That is not cute. I am

A) speaking for myself as a U.S. citizen who resides in New York, and

B) I am using "we" because my parents taught me that it was "We the people" who are the government of this country.

That means that when my country does things of which I am ashamed, I am not innocent of the guilt and I partake in the crime whether I wish to or not.

I am glad to see people (or at least one person) around who are able to wrap their heads around this concept. Simply because we live our lives within the society that is supported by these atrocities (through no fault of our own, mind you), we are all culpable for them, in some degree.

The United States started devolving from democracy probably from the moment that the ink dried on our most hallowed documents. I harbor no illusions about the amount of influence "the people" can leverage in a society hijacked by the military-industrial-media-entertainment complex (thanks Flow, for suggesting to me that the complex be expanded), but that doesn't make me feel much better about the horribly nasty and inhumane things that this same complex does in my name around the world, and all the ways in which I am embedded into the system that is sucking the life out of people (including not least of all me; let me not be misinterpreted as simply some altruist, some compassionate white hypocrite) and animals and land the world over.

But then again, I'm a depressive type, and such a gloomy assessment of reality is not for everyone.

 

[Pathless]

Once done, can any or all of this ever be made really right?

Gore Vidal don't think so.

Citizen Gore Vidal -- In These Times

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste operacast,

thank you for the post.

That is not cute. I am

i'm not being cute. if you speak for yourself then simply say so.

A) speaking for myself as a U.S. citizen who resides in New York, and

B) I am using "we" because my parents taught me that it was "We the people" who are the government of this country.

your parents may have taught you that i cannot say and there seems to be no reason to quibble about it. what they taught you was, however, incorrect. the government has a mandate from the people which does not mean that the people, as a mass, are the government. that is pretty much besides the point to my way of thinking but then again i find collective guilt to be a wholly unhealthy concept to begin with.

That means that when my country does things of which I am ashamed, I am not innocent of the guilt and I partake in the crime whether I wish to or not.

yes, you are. i don't hold to moral conceptions that apply group guilt when it is the beings, themselves, that are responsible for their actions. i am no more guilty of killing First People with smallpox than you are.

You can guffaw all you like, you can call this corny all you like, but the blood, sweat and tears shed at each and every one of these hurdles have sanctified -- yes, sanctified -- each of these achievements.

i do none of those things yet i don't view those actions as religious in any manner whatsoever.

They are sacred to me, and they are still sacred to millions of shocked and bewildered people throughout this country today.

you are free to hold any religious views that you'd like, i don't much care about that. your religious views, however, have no bearing upon those particular documents which are, indeed, not religious documents. perhaps you've elevated the Founding Fathers to the level of saint or demi-god or the like whereas i have not and thus we view their product in a very different manner.

Of course, there have been betrayals of these principles in the past. Of course, our story has reflected the common moral frailties of all humanity. But the struggles against those very frailties have made the achievements that overcame those frailties yet more precious.

your argument would make you and every American guilty of those betrayals, if i'm understanding it correctly. it seems you are espousing collective guilt and collective punishment both ideas which i find particularly abhorrent.

Now, we have a new King George.

i think that you must not know what kings are if you think that America has any.

This King George brings war to people who never attacked us. This King George places the mightiest of the mighty above the law. This King George desecrates our Constitution. This King George traduces the rights to freedom from want and freedom from fear. This King George brings us something so close to fascism that its difference from fascism is scarcely worth a second thought. This King George takes people off the street and arbitrarily sequestrates them without due process and indefinitely. This King George throws out the Geneva Conventions and tortures prisoners. And this King George rejects any decent respect to the opinions of mankind as he betrays our solemn heritage in the United Nations and in the entire global community.

so you're guilty of all of those things, yes? if so, why do you ascribe those actions to someone else? simply step up and say that you've done those things and therefore you are guilty. i've not done any of those things and i shall resist your efforts to attribute such things to me.

Unless you live here, and live in a city where countless international visitors are seen every day, and unless you have to look these visitors in the eye every day and say "Yes, I live here; yes, I'm an American", you will never know what real burning shame truly feels like. -- May you never know what real burning shame truly feels like.

indeed... i never shall since the actions of other beings reflect upon them not upon me. i used to live in Washington D.C. where there are plenty of international visitors.. indeed, this past fourth of july i spent it with three men from Japan that were visiting and we discussed the United States and the various issues that it has faced throughout it's history.

do you feel responsible for the use of biological agents in exterminating the First People? why or why not?

metta,

~v

 

[Pathless]

i don't hold to moral conceptions that apply group guilt when it is the beings, themselves, that are responsible for their actions. i am no more guilty of killing First People with smallpox than you are.

i never shall since the actions of other beings reflect upon them not upon me.

This brings some questions to my mind about certain aspects of Buddhist practice. Vajradhara, would you please take a look at the questions I have posed here: http://www.interfaith.org/forum/interdependent-co-arising-and-social-9960.html#post168989

Thanks,
P.

 

[wil]

The United States started devolving from democracy probably from the moment that the ink dried on our most hallowed documents.

As you well know the US never was a democracy. We are a republic.

OC,

We move on. We pick up our mistakes, and move on. We try not to wallow and move on.

Just left a lecture by Bishop Spong, his thesis was that once the rhetoric doesn't match the actions that things have to change. He went down the lines of items in religion and politics that both are typically charged about. Note he is no longer a Bishop, retired, and able to speak on any topic he wishes.

That we had overtly Christian President who said Jesus was his hero, and G!d's will he was nominated, Christian, love your enemy, your neighbor, etc...and instigated a preemptive war. Based on lies (another commandment voided) of yellow cake sales and atomic threat. rhetoric doesn't fit the actions.

That in the 8 years of a pro life candidate the abortion rate increased and the 8 years of the pro choice candidate it was less and went down. rhetoric doesn't fit the actions.

That we had a republican senator who propositioned a policeman, and a republican representative that wrote sex letters to his interns....rhetoric doesn't fit the actions.

So much for the homosexual and abortion issues that were in the last election, they didn't even come up in this one. Not only that but Barney Frank, openly gay prior to his election, works hand in hand with our President to push through the Republican President's socialist take over of our banking system. And while his sexuality didn't come up, Republican and socialism have never mixed and rhetoric doesn't fit the actions.

All the issues you've mentioned and more....we gotta pick up and move on. Move on from our mistakes, move on and try to improve, work together and quit pointing fingers.

 

[Nick_A]

Wil

All the issues you've mentioned and more....we gotta pick up and move on. Move on from our mistakes, move on and try to improve, work together and quit pointing fingers.

Alas it doesn't work that way. "Since we are as we are, everything is as it is." Everything has already been said. The cycles repeat since we are lawful parts of nature. Not even Bishop Spong can change it

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Wil,

thank you for the post.

As you well know the US never was a democracy. We are a republic.

technically the United States is a Representative Republic which is a form of democracy.

many beings use the term democracy in a very narrow meaning to include only direct democracy but leave out other forms and i really have no idea why that is. there are at least 9 forms of democratic government:
Democracy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

metta,

~v

 

[Tao_Equus]

I think the OP has some sound points. It would be nice to see Bush,Cheney, Rumsfeld and their cronies charged with war crimes, nepotism and, I think a fair charge, Treason. And to see them and the companies they own stripped of all assets. The dismantling of that whole 'mafia' organisation that has robbed US citizens of trillions of dollars would be a shrewd move.

tao

 

[Operacast]

do you feel responsible for the use of biological agents in exterminating the First People? why or why not?

Were we already a Constitutional democracy when the exterminating began through biological agents? Was I alive and of voting age? I was alive and part of a voting citizenry in the 21st century when my President invaded a sovereign country without provocation and dissed the entire rule of law in a dozen and one other ways.

Operacast

 

[Snoopy]

As you well know the US never was a democracy. We are a republic.

Can't you be both? Your politicians always go banging on about democracy don't they? (whether the joys of it at home or abroad)...

"Democracy and republic

In contemporary usage, the term democracy refers to a government chosen by the people, whether it is direct or representative. The term republic has many different meanings, but today often refers to a representative democracy with an elected head of state, such as a president, serving for a limited term, in contrast to states with a hereditary monarch as a head of state, even if these states also are representative democracies with an elected or appointed head of government such as a prime minister."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republicanism

s.