Prayer without G!d or supernatural intervention

prayer, an act of communication by humans with the sacred or holy—God, the gods, the transcendent realm, or supernatural powers. Found in all religions in all times, prayer may be a corporate or personal act utilizing various forms and techniques.

I’m going with transcendent realm…A transcendent realm is a realm that is beyond the physical and material universe, and is often associated with divine consciousness, absolute truth, or ultimate reality.

I’m going with ultimate reality.

The way I see it…for me…prayer is an act, an attempt to change my mind, encourage me to work to change some current position or perspective…to shine light on solutions to my dilemma … or perceived dilemma.

Pray but move your feet.  In my life I do not believe prayer can do anything without me acting on it.  I do not expect to be able to bend the universe to my will…or expect any supernatural force or entity to come to my rescue.

I use concepts of meditation and prayer to examine situations I have put myself in and explore ways to change them and strive not for the best for me, but the best for all, or maybe most, or some, but more than me.

If it is to be it is up to me…used to be my mantra…but I have learned how much I benefit from the good works of others…all the time, in every aspect of my life, the food I eat, the place I live, the cars I travel in, the events I go to…are a culmination of human effort put forth for my benefit humans that do not know me in China assemble computers and cellphones that make this missive possible…and they are only the last in a chain of scientists, entrepreneurs, philosophers and laborers who have literally moved mountains to make all this possible today…they are my unknown unsung heroes, my gods who have created my world…they have lived (and most have died) for my, our benefit,  they are who I revere and am thankful for.

I go into prayer not to beseech some spirit to affect my health or wealth…but to find a place of calm and acceptance for my current situation and seek what I can do to change it.

I go into prayer to calm my anxious mind that contemplates the worst, that has a tendency to blame others for my current misfortune. … and either find and begin the steps to change…or the acceptance of what is.

I feel blessed in the face of the turmoil that is going on in our world and in my body, blessed that the pain and troubles exist…and so yet do I.

I am grateful that I can express and explore my feelings and beliefs here…

Love you all, and my wish is you find the same solace in your beliefs as I do in my nonbelief.

 

wil May 31, 2024

Visit Thread: https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/21151/

 

 

Ezekiel 37

And so the conversation continues from another thread . . .

I don’t see why not? Ezekiel describes all kinds of strange visions that could hardly have been familiar to his readers?

Of course he used language that was familiar to his listeners. Most people back then were illiterate, and so they wouldn’t have read it. If you were an astrophysicist, would you explain astrophysics with your own language and concepts to a people steeped in mythological thinking? I don’t think so.

I suppose RJM is referring to the following from Ezekiel as strange:

And when I looked, there were four wheels by the cherubim, one wheel by one cherub and another wheel by each other cherub; the wheels appeared to have the colour of a beryl stone. As for their appearance, all four looked alike—as it were, a wheel in the middle of a wheel. When they went, they went toward any of their four directions; they did not turn aside when they went … And their whole body, with their back, their hands, their wings, and the wheels that the four had, were full of eyes all around. As for the wheels, they were called in my hearing, “Wheel.”

Are you sure it would have been strange to his listeners, however? What do you, as a person that doesn’t live in the age of mythological thinking, find strange about it? Or, better yet, what do you think Ezekiel’s contemporaries would have found strange about it? To me, it makes sense that his audience was already familiar with the resurrection concept after Zoroastrian influence.

I think the encyclopedia’s probably wrong, because the dates don’t match for a widespread belief in literal resurrection in Ezekiel’s day – the article is well over 100 years old, there’s been a lot of scholarship since then …

Yes, there has been a lot of scholarship since then, but a lot of scholars are saying the same thing. See Jon D. Levenson, a professor of Jewish studies at Harvard and one of the most influential scholars in the field, who wrote in Resurrection and Restoration (which was published in 2006): “If resurrection were thought ludicrous, or impossible even for God, then it would be a singularly inappropriate metaphor for the national renewal and restoration that Ezekiel predicts, and the vision in Ezek 37:1-10 could never have succeeded in its goal of overcoming the hopelessness of the audience.”

By “others,” are you talking about all the Church Fathers? I am struggling to find one that disagrees with Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and Tertullian. Is the tradition they were handed wrong? Also, are you also talking about New Testament authors like Matthew, who probably understood Ezekiel 37 literally too? “The tombs were also opened and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised” (Matthew 27.52; Ezekiel 37.12).

 

Ahanu Apr 28, 2024

Visit thread: https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/21126/

 

 

No false prophet will be established in Israel

Ezekiel 13 is about false prophets “that prophesy out of their own hearts”. God says to them, “Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!” And that they have contributed naught to Isreal “to stand in the battle in the day of the Lord”

This reflects the many warnings the New Testament offers about false prophets.

Ezekial 13 up to verse 9 talks of these false prophets, then we get to verse 9.

9 And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord God. (Bold by me)

God has stated that no false prophets will enter the land of Israel, let alone to the established in Israel.

Verses 10 to 16 are about a wall daubed with untempered morter, a wall that God will bring down. A personal thought on this was the wailing wall and the mortar was the prayers tucked inside the cracks, that then ties to verses 17 to 23.

Verses 17 to 23 I have no solid thoughts about, but they appear to be expanding upon the extent that false prophecy has permeated society as a whole. The extent that false prophecy has influenced our mind and prayers.

So the two main points I will raise are.

1) If a prophet comes to Isreal and is established therein, then verse 9 would indicate they are not false. I see this supports Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah.

2) It appears verses 10 to 16 could very well be a prophecy about the wailing wall, be it symbolic or has a material unfoldment.

Happy to discuss in a friendly manner.

Regards Tony

 

Tony Bristow-Stagg 6/04/2024

Visit thread: https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/21133/

 

 

 

Questions for the Baha’i – from a primarily Christian perspective.

The Baha’i teaches that God is unknowable in his essence (Christianity refutes that, btw), but that God does reveal something of Himself through his “manifestations” (ie. Krishna, Buddha, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, Baha’u’llah, et. al.). If I have it right, these manifestations possess something of the attributes of the divine in a particular and unique way, unlike the rest of humanity.

The Baha’i regards all manifestations of God as essentially one and the same in essence, indeed sharing a common soul and as such are one being in multifarious forms – This stands in stark contrast to the self-declarations and identifications of the aforesaid manifestations – one cannot simply, reasonably and rationally equate Krishna with Abraham, or John the Baptist with the Buddha and say the all share one soul (indeed, the Buddha denies the soul altogether).

When we take in Prophets such as Jeremiah or Ezekiel, Isaiah or Hosea, then the situation is all the more stark – the Prophets of Judaism were men and women called by God. They were not seen as, nor declared themselves to be, ‘manifestations of God’. Strictly speaking, the most one can say is that God manifested his Word and his Will through them – He was present in them and to them, but not as them. Nor was this manifesting state a permanent state of being – God came and went, as it were – not every word uttered by, and every moment of the existence of, a prophet, is Revelation.

In short, it’s hyperbole. It is perhaps laudatory in certain circumstances, but it’s not true.

 

 

Thomas  18/03/2024

Visit Thread: https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/21078/

 

The Archeology of the Kingdom of God: Diving a Bit Deeper into a Baha’i Approach to Metaphysics

In an effort to help improve and deepen our dialogue with @Thomas and @RJM, I would like to share a few quotes about Baha’u’llah’s approach to metaphysics from The Archeology of the Kingdom of God, which is an English translation by Peter Terry of a French work by Jean-Marc Lepain. Because it is a translation, the wording for me is a little strange in places, but the writer is clearly knowledgeable. Let’s start off with a comparison between Baha’u’llah’s approach and the general approach of classical metaphysicians. We’ll go elsewhere and explore further from there. :)

 

  1. It looks like where we start our approach differs dramatically. Classical metaphysics begins with God and a descent through the hierarchy of Being. Baha’u’llah’s approach works the other way around: “It is because one begins by defining the nature of man that one can thereafter ascend the degrees of the hierarchy of Being.”

 

“While classical metaphysics begin with God to descend thereafter through the degrees of the hierarchy of Being, from the world of essences to that of individuals, the question which is found at the heart of the philosophy of Baha’u’llah is an inquest upon the nature of man. It is because one begins by defining the nature of man that one can thereafter ascend the degrees of the hierarchy of Being. This explains that the philosophy of Ideas or of Forms appropriate to Platonism or Aristotelianism is replaced by a philosophy of values. It is in the function of the meaning which is given to human life that one can define the finality of the physical reality of the universe.”

 

More on the reasoning behind this thinking here:

 

“For Baha’u’llah, there are two complementary ways of apprehending the world: the one rational and scientific which exists from our exteriority, and the other intuitive and mystical which exists from our interiority. But, in order to take this second path, man must first explore and understand his interiority. Furthermore, in that which concerns God and the spiritual worlds in general, the way of interiority alone exists. This is why Baha’u’llah, after the knowledge of self, assigns as finality to human existence “to know and love God”. He affirms that this is not only the finality of all human existence but that it is also the finality of all creation, for it is impossible to conceive of a divine creation without a consciousness which knows his Creator. This is what we have called “the anthropic principle” of Baha’u’llah. This principle overturns all of philosophy and had multiple and fundamental implications which are far from being explored. It is this principle which explains that the reality of the universe appears to be structured in its functioning by a law of intelligibility which the universe shares with the human spirit. It is this principle which also implicates the necessity of a noetic and epistemological link between the creature and the Creator which is at the source of the Baha’i hermeneutic. From that also follows that Being cannot be at the center of the metaphysic, and even of the ontology, of Baha’u’llah.”

 

  1. “Being is no longer at the center of metaphysics” in Baha’i thought.

 

“The principle which is the resume of the anthropology of Baha’u’llah, and which constitutes the key to the vault of his teaching is contained in the affirmation that the nature of man is spiritual. The fundamental philosophical problem which this principle poses consists then in understanding what the word “spiritual” signifies. We can say that this question is the object of the metaphysic of Baha’u’llah, for the concept of the spiritual refers to a world of transcendental values, intermediary values between God and His creation, the existence of which one must explain. Now we understand why the metaphysic of Baha’u’llah is not presented according to the mode to which the classical systems have habituated us. Being is no longer at the center of metaphysics; it is replaced by the spirit and the consciousness.”

 

 

  1. Old terms are redefined by Baha’u’llah as a result of this approach.

 

“Whenever Baha’u’llah takes up the mystical language of the Arabo-Persian tradition it is always in a metaphorical sense and not in order to approve the dogmas which were generated therefrom. This is the case with all the vocabulary of the Ishraqi theophany, such as ishraq (auroral light), mashriq(orient, dawn), tajalli (radiance, effulgence, emanation), zuhur (manifestation, appearance), mazhar(place of manifestation), ufuq (horizons), and so forth. These words are, in the work of Baha’u’llah, redirected from their original meaning to express new ideas in the midst of a philosophy that denies all dogmatism and all systematic philosophical theorization. It is in the spirit of this transformation that we must examine the role and the place of the terminology of the divine worlds in the work of Baha’u’llah.

 

It is also important to emphasize that Baha’u’llah broke with the entire philosophical tradition of Islam. He rejects the ontology of Ibn Sina which furnished that tradition with its principal structure over the course of several centuries. He repudiates the theory of the creative Imagination which Ibn Sina, Ibn al-‘Arabi and al-Suhrawardi developed. He also rejects existential monism which, since al-Hallaj, seemed to be the only form of thought definitely opposed to Islamic orthodoxy. He dares to affirm the eternity of the creation and reduces to allegorical symbols the greater part of the Quranic dogmas, including the resurrection, the final judgment, the appearance face to face with God, the angels, the Imams, and so on. The profundity of his thought manifests itself above all in its limpidity which contrasts it with the extreme sophistication of the thought systems of his time.

 

One does not find in the work of Baha’u’llah a single exposition sui generis of an ontological or metaphysical theory. This does not mean to say that Baha’u’llah did not have any conception of his own in this domain. But this conception is implicit. The only way to rediscover it is to become impregnated with his work, to study it deeply and to meditate thereon. Then abysses of wisdom reveal themselves. This refusal of all theorization by Baha’u’llah is fundamental. The Manifestations of God do not come to construct systems. The elaboration of a knowing discourse is the province of theologians, mystics and philosophers who follow the Manifestations in each Dispensation.

 

In the Writings of Baha’u’llah, it is often necessary to compare one text with several others in order to release the complete image of his thought. This brevity exemplifies the great reserve which Baha’u’llah leaves to be penetrated in the case of metaphysical questions. This reserve exists for two reasons. The first refers to the concept which Baha’u’llah has of his own mission. A Manifestation of God is not a professor of philosophy, no more than he is a medical doctor, a biologist, a physicist or other specialist. The Manifestation of God does not come to reveal to us the secrets of the universe, but to give us a moral and spiritual teaching susceptible of contributing to the spiritual expansion of man. The spiritual blooming of man is found in detachment, in the service of humanity and in teaching the Cause of God, not in metaphysical speculation.

 

However, the brevity of the discourses consecrated by Baha’u’llah to the divine worlds, and the evident reserve with which these are treated, should not make us believe that the subject has little importance in his eyes. He habitually employs this concise and stripped down manner of writing which delivers only the essential. One could even say that the absence of literary ornament always characterizes the most important passages of his writings. The “Most Holy Book” (Kitab-i-Aqdas) is the very model of brevity and concision. The establishment of Houses of Justice, signally the foundation of the Baha’i Administrative Order, is treated in less than three lines and none of his essential points receives a long elaboration. What is fundamental in the exposition of Baha’u’llah in the “Tablet of All Food” is the link that he establishes between the question of the divine worlds and a spiritual hermeneutic (ta’wil), in which he indicates that a certain food (understood as spiritual in nature) corresponds to each world, and that at the same time the word “food” itself is susceptible to receiving an interpretation particular to its function in each of these worlds, so that in fact the term contains innumerable significances.”

 

Ahanu 23/03/2024

View Thread: https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/21086/

 

 

Understanding esoterism

Christianity – indeed any religion – is essentially a discernment between God and the world, between the Real and the unreal, the Absolute and the relative, the Eternal and the contingent. Following from this, religion is the union of the two.

Religions are exoteric to the degree that they are shaped by their sitz in leben (‘setting in life’), the environment in which they appear and the conditions under which they take form.

They are esoteric in the sense that it is through these external forms – primarily scripture and its tradition – that is communicated the vivifying essence of that to which it attains. The esoteric is such to the degree that it is discreet, nevertheless implicit, in the forms. Thus Jesus said “To you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but to them that are without, all things are done in parables” (Mark 4:11) – this is not to say the knowledge of the kingdom remains hidden to the ‘without’, as He also said “He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.” (Mark 4:9, 4:23 & 7:16).

In that regard, the ‘esoteric’ is always and necessarily a complement to the exoteric, you cannot have one without the other; you cannot apprehend or make sense of the esoteric other than by its complementary exoteric form – it is the esoteric that makes sense of the form, and it is the form that transmits the sense of the esoteric. It is precisely through the forms that the formless makes itself known. The esoteric is like a fluid, itself shapeless, but which adopts the shape of the form into which it is poured – the shapes vary across the religions, the fluid is the same.

All authentic religions are, eventually and inevitably, apophatic, because they transcend the world of forms, the scope of knowledge. Thus we can speak of confessional esoterisms, as a constituent part of the expression of a tradition in all its forms, in its symbologies, for example, or its rites and liturgies – each religion giving rise to its own, to a greater or lesser degree ‘transparent’ from the standpoint of metaphysics.

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When one speaks of a confessional esoterism, this speaks of the loftiest, subtlest, most interior part of a doctrine (esoteric derives from the Greek ἐσωτέρω (esōtérō, ‘further inside’), the ‘spirit’ with regard to the exoteric ‘letter’. One is speaking of an integral doctrine in respect of its nature, leaving aside the necessary requirements of pastoral care (cf 1 Corinthians 3:1-3).

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Thus there is a distinction between ‘Esoteric Christianity’ and ‘Christian esoterism’ – the latter is talks of the distinction between the God and the world as such, according to the Revealed data of its extrinsic forms – scripture and tradition.

‘Esoteric Christianity’ has come to infer an absolute and formal distinction – a dualism and a dichotomy – commonly spoken of in ‘esoteric circles’ as a Johannine (esoteric) Christianity as other to and distinct from a Petrine (exoteric) Christianity. Nothing could be further from the two, as in fact Peter and John are one in Christ, as is clear from the mention of them both together no less than seven times in Acts, and Paul speaks of them (with James), as the ‘pillars’ of the Christian community (Galatians 2:9).

This distinction undermines the very essence of the Revelation in Christ – of the unity of spirit and matter (which itself can be traced back to Genesis) – and the nature of the Incarnation, with its consequent implication for humanity. Too often, and too easily, a syncretic grafting of various extraneous teachings and ideas are attempted to ‘explain’ Christianity whereas all this does is demonstrate a failure to properly comprehend and understand the true nature of the Revelation – something which the metaphysician recognises – for what it is, a Path unlike others in material detail, but alike and akin to them in essence.

 

 

Thomas Jan 26, 2024

Visit Thread: https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/21003/

 

laws of nature…

please use this thread to teach verifiable laws of nature…

I would like to start with a question.

How is it, in the case of fossils, that the dead animal completely disintegrates (bones etc.) but the dirt it left the impression in keeps the shape and becomes completely solid. Wouldn’t it make more sense since the dirt I assume is wet when it takes the imprint that since the carcass is more solid initially, the the dirt would lose the shape and the carcass remains intact then the other way around?

Please get back to me and let me know how this is explained.

 

abuyusufalshafii Feb 16, 2024

Visit Thread: https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/21027/

 

 

on Faith

There is a saying – ‘the first thing one knows is the last thing one understands’, and such is faith.

“Now faith is the substance of things to be hoped for, the evidence of things that appear not” (Hebrews 11:1), but, by the Grace of God, in some manner we can aspire to “the ultimate summit of your mystical knowledge, most incomprehensible, most luminous and most exalted, where the pure, absolute and immutable mysteries of theology are veiled in the dazzling obscurity of the secret Silence, outshining all brilliance with the intensity of their Darkness, and surcharging our blinded intellects with the utterly impalpable and invisible fairness of glories surpassing all beauty.” (Dionysius the pseudoAreopagite, The Mystical Theology, I, 1)

The ‘ultimate summit’ is such that it cannot be known, because it transcends all forms, and thus cannot be attained by knowledge, but only by faith, and a ‘leap into the dark’, which again, is what faith is.

 

Thomas 24/02/2024

Visit thread: https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/21042/#post-388850