Category: News

According to a recent Pew survey, 50% of US Catholics believe the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Christ, that is, they believe in the Transubstantiation.

The other half — a staggering 50% — think the change is ‘symbolic’.

Fr Dwight Longernecker — from whom I’ve filched this article — suggests a number of causes, the easiest to point a finger at being 50 years of ‘raindrops on roses and whiskers on kittens’ catechesis, and most respondents here at IO seem to have an expeience of questions ignored or chopped off short.

Others (not here) blame Vatican II, and the liberalising of the Church, culminating in ‘Father Fabulous’ with his Day-Glo vestments, churches that look like a spaceships and music that seems to be a blend of Joan Baez, the Carpenters and campfire songs — in short, that religion should be hip, be cool …

This particular debate goes way back. The Fourth Lateran Council in 1215, the Council of Trent (1545-63). Trent was a response to the Protestant revolutionaries. Luther proposed “consubstantiation” and the Anglicans “receptionism”, while Calvin and Zwingli argued for a merely symbolic presence of Christ at the celebration of the Eucharist.

Modern Materialist Christian Man believes Christianity is a human endeavour, the product of a certain historical period and culture. As such, it not only may change, but it must change according to the time and culture in which it finds itself. In other words, Christianity is a relative religion. Not only is the Eucharist a symbol, it’s all a symbol/metaphor/analogy/myth.

(A note: Had the Church adopted this change with the times attitude, it wouldn’t be here today, any more than the structures of those times … even idealistic 60/70s Christian movements are dying as the generation passes …)

Modern Mysticist Christian Man (admittedly way, way less than 50%) believes that the dogmas of faith are not relative, but Revealed. The Incarnation, the Trinity, the Sacraments. The Words and the Deeds – the Eucharist and the entire Christian faith is not symbolic but supernatural. It is revealed by God, and as such transcends the vagaries of history and culture.

Longernecker makes a nice analogy:
In our downstairs bathroom we have a collection of family photographs. There I am as a child of two in my father’s arms. Next to it is a family photo when I am five, another when I am 12, then my high school portrait, my college years and then yesterday’s me … an old bald man. The physical form has changed, but in each photograph you can see it’s me. That invisible, unchanging person is my substance.

It is this “substance” of the bread and wine that changes, the ‘me’ of it. All that has happened is the ontological source has been affirmed and, if you like, actuated. If God cannot imbue the eucharistic species with his essence, than neither can man attain ‘enlightenment’ or ‘salvations’ or ‘deliverance’ or whatever you want to call it … God is more unlike us than we are unlike bread and wine. In fact God is nothing like us … so why we should think that we can achieve what cannot be achieved by any other collection of atoms in the cosmos, well …

+++

Mystery religions are unfashionable, unless they wear their mystery on their sleeves. Same with spirituality, whatever … ‘no pain, no gain’, the motto goes, but what if there is pain but no gain to the authentic spiritual life? Not so enticing now, it seems …

… so we slide back into eros, into the ecstatic, the whoo-hoo of mysticism, that the mystic is imbued with some kind of ‘I-know-something-you-don’t know’ Mona Lisa smile, and if you can pull that off, and write a book, you’re made.

The religion of the age is scientism. It’s the basis of faith, or rather the basis of a faith that says if it cannot be empirically determined, it cannot be.

Me? I long for an authentic Christian Mystagogia — a deeper seating of the faithful in the Mysteries of the Church, a chance to drink from deep wells … but my God, would that put you at odds with the world!

Really, in trying to stay still, we’ve gone backwards. That diet is all too rich for us now. I read the lessons of St Augustine to the Catechumen and I’m staggered by what he tells them. Say that today and it won’t be long before someone cries heretic or insists its an assertion of pantheism, or a ‘spiritual analogy’.

Thomas Aug 6, 2019

Visit Thread: https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/19154/

This follows from a discussion elsewhere, but as it is off-topic on that thread, I thought I might start a new one, and hope to keep the discussion on track.

The salient point was this:

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

As an example, to offer in all sincerity the Oneness of God and the Oneness of humanity both Islam and Christianity will have to let go of some doctrines.

Does that not rather imply the Baha’i view both Islam and Christianity as lacking sincerity? Again, which doctrines do you see as evidence of that?

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

Anything that prevents us embracing the One God in the Messengers of Muhammad and Jesus, to name but a couple.

That’s a rather nebulous answer – I doubt any religious authority will agree to ‘anything’ when asked precisely what dogmas and doctrines they will be obliged to ‘let go’.

The issue here is how Catholicism and Baha’i perceive ‘oneness.’

Nostra Aetate is The Declaration on the relation of the (Catholic) Church to non-Christian Religions (Vatican II, 1965)

1.1 – In our time, when day by day mankind is being drawn closer together, and the ties between different peoples are becoming stronger, the Church examines more closely her relationship to non-Christian religions. In her task of promoting unity and love among men, indeed among nations, she considers above all in this declaration what men have in common and what draws them to fellowship.

In the Christian view, the whole creation is a theophany, and speaks of the One True God in all its multiplicity and diversity – as Nature teaches – as a good. It seems to me you want to do away with this diversity of religious expression, in favour of a particular ‘oneness’.

One is the community of all peoples, one their origin, for God made the whole human race to live over the face of the earth. One also is their final goal, God. His providence, His manifestations of goodness, His saving design extend to all … until that time when the elect will be united in the Holy City, the city ablaze with the glory of God, where the nations will walk in His light.
Here the Church speaks of oneness and community – a unity in diversity.

… Thus in Hinduism, men contemplate the divine mystery and express it through an inexhaustible abundance of myths … through searching philosophical inquiry … through ascetical practices or profound meditation or a flight to God with love and trust. Again, Buddhism, in its various forms, realizes the radical insufficiency of this changeable world; it teaches a way … to acquire the state of perfect liberation, or attain, by their own efforts or through higher help, supreme illumination. Likewise, other religions … each in its own manner, by proposing “ways,” comprising teachings, rules of life, and sacred rites. The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all… in whom God has reconciled all things to Himself.
My emphasis – the Catholic Church rejects nothing in those religions, whereas the Baha’i will require a ‘letting go’ of dogmas and doctrines, rites and liturgies.

Thus where thew Church recognises many “Ways”, the Baha’i acknowledges only one.

+++

Looking more closely, it seems clear that Christianity will have to ‘let go’ its very foundational doctrines – of Jesus Christ, the Only-Begotten Son of God; of the Holy Spirit and the Life in the Blessed Trinity … furthermore it would seem to imply that Scripture and Tradition would have to be edited, redacted and reworked to fit the Baha’i model.

And the same applies to Islam and Judaism, Hinduism and Buddhism.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

Anything that prevents us from embracing the Councels sent by God.

By which you mean the ‘cousels of God’ as delivered by your messengers take priority and stand as the authoritative measure of the counsels of every other religion?

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

Otherwise, the Unity, peace and security of all of humanity is not possible.

But I don’t think this will be true ‘unity’, as unity implies diversity, and you seek to abolish diversity in thought and practice.

As the Baha’i have no clergy nor a liturgy, are we all obliged to ‘let go’ our clergies ands our liturgies? Our sacraments?

It seems to me your peace and security will be achieved only with the evisceration of religions, rendering them glove puppets promoting Baha’i doctrine?

+++

Our Scripture says:
“There is neither Jew nor Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is neither male nor female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus.
(Galatians 3:28, cf Colossians 3:11 and Romans 10:12)

Clearly, there are Jews and Greeks, men and women, but there is a Unity and a Oneness that transcends the World of Forms – it does not do away with them, as you seek to do – its love is greater.

In short, I think your ‘oneness’ is, metaphysically and philosophically, a categorical error (in the sense it confuses distinct categories of being and nature)

Thomas  8/02/2024

Visit Thread: https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/21013/

… therefore God does not exist.

This statement fails on two points of logic.

The first is that of an Argument from Ignorance.
This is when we illegitimately appeal to ignorance to support a conclusion. It usually takes the following form:
“No one has proven not A, therefore A is true,” or
“No one has proven A, so A is false.”

The fallacy is mistakenly believing something must be false because it has not been proven true, or that something must be true because it has not been proven false.

A secondary flaw is the fallacy of misplacing the burden of proof
Arises when someone is misled into thinking they have to prove a claim (eg that God exists), when their opponent should be proving his claim (that God does not).

The point here is who is making the claim? The claimant, be they theist or atheist, in making a claim, shoulders the burden of proof for their claim.

For example, the person making a positive assertion usually has the burden of proof (e.g. the theist who asserts God’s existence). Once the theist presents an argument for God’s existence, the burden of proof is now on the atheist who denies God’s existence. Once the atheist shows what is wrong with the argument or presents a new argument against God’s existence, some or all of the burden shifts back to the theist. And so it continues.
(From the Lucid Philosophy website)

Further discussion of the Burden of Proof here

Thomas Jan 25, 2024

Visit thread: https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/21002/

Although I am a non-theistic Buddhist, I have become quite an expert on Christian Universalism (technical word apokatastasis) this being the teaching that eventually all will be saved and all things will be reconciled “in Christ”. Beware of experts? Yes, well, as I say, I’m a bit of an expert…….

My expertise (!) has developed in part from my interest in Interfaith dialogue, an interest now on the wane as most Christians I tend to engage with on various forums have just one starting point i.e. There can be no dialogue between truth (theirs) and error (i.e. anything else) So debate and discussion tends to stall at the first hurdle.

Anyway, I tend to ramble and waffle, finding that expressing myself therapeutic. I’m not really seeking to advance the Universalist cause, more at the moment to say what I find problematic about it. This derives from the old comedy show of the late great Spike Milligan, Q6. Many of his sketches ended with some sort of punch line and then dear old Spike would stand ramrod stiff in the middle of the room and start muttering “What do we do now, what do we do now?”

So Universalism. All are saved, all things are reconciled. But what do we do then? It’s a very good question, and our questions can hold greater gold than many an “answer”, at least I think so.

In my own rather stumbling Pure Land Buddhist way of “no-calculation” the “journey itself is home”, as the Japanese poet Basho has said. There is no final destination. The road goes on forever. And one of my mentors in zen, Dogen, speaks of the present moment being the only moment, “yet there is a movement toward Buddha”, an ever opening intimacy with Reality.

Another aspect is the guy (I can’t remember who) who said that he would rather constantly pursue Truth rather than actually find it or have it “revealed” to him. What do you do with it when you have found it? Could any final “truth” even be of words?

Well, that’s it. A bit on name dropping. But I’m basically harmless.

Thank you if you have read this far.

CircleoftheWay 18/01/2024

Visit Thread: https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/20988/#post-387910

Just beginning to read Dennis Prager’s commentary on Exodus. His second volume of the Torah, on Genesis will be released in early May.

Anyone else read the Exodus volume?

Nicholas Weeks Apr 12, 2019

Visit Thread: https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/19030/

From :
https://universalalphaomega.blogspot.com/2024/01/the-one-in-different-religions.html

Ultimate One the Heavenly Savior (太乙救苦天尊) is a divine manifestation of the Uncreated energy of The One (先天一炁), a.k.a. Ultimate One (太一). According to Taoist Scriptures, He comes from the Eastern World of Everlasting Bliss (東方長樂世界), riding a nine-headed lion. He has countless manifestations and incarnations in all worlds.Master Loy’s Spring and Autumn Annals (呂氏春秋.大樂) says : Tao is the ultimate essence, which is formless and nameless. To name it artificially, it can be called Ultimate One. (道也者，至精也，不可為形，不可為名，強為之，謂之太一。)​ ​ The Ultimate One generates Water (太一生水) says : Heaven and earth are created by Ultimate One. (天地者，太一之所生也。)​ ​ The Wondrous Scripture on Ultimate One’s Salvation and Protection (太一救苦護身妙經) says : In the Eastern World of Everlasting Bliss, there is a greatly merciful and benevolent one called Ultimate One the Heavenly Savior. He has countless manifestations and incarnations, such as heavenly deities, emperors, kings, saints, spirits, people of various careers, etc., residing in all realms including heavens, human worlds, and hells. He has infinite holy power and innumerable merits. He saves the sufferings and responds to prayers, as long as living beings seek His help.(此東方長樂世界，有大慈仁者，太一救苦天尊，化身如恒沙數，物隨聲應，或住天宮，或降人間，或居地獄，或攝群邪，或為仙童玉女，或為帝君聖人，或為天尊真人，或為金剛神王，或為魔王力士，或為天師道士，或為皇人老君，或為天醫功曹，或為男子女子，或為文武官宰，或為都大元帥，或為教師，或為風師雨師，神通無量，功行無窮，尋聲救苦，應物隨機，今告汝知。)​ ​ Additionally, in The Wondrous Scripture on Ultimate One’s Salvation and Protection (太一救苦護身妙經), the origin of Ultimate One the Heavenly Savior is told by the following verses : The primordial energy of The Origin.​ A wondrous manifestation of the Essence of Nine Yeong.​ His mightiness and merits are omnipresent.​ He comes and reveals the Truth in a miraculous trance. (元元之祖氣，妙化九陽精。威德布十方，恍恍現其真。)​ ​ The Scripture of Way and Virtue (道德經) says : There is a thing that is complete as it always be. It exists before the creation of heaven and earth.​ Being quiescent and formless, it is self-existent and never changes. It circulates everywhere and never stops.​ It is the mother of heaven and earth. I do not know its name, but call it Tao. (有物混成，先天地生。寂兮寥兮，獨立而不改，周行而不殆，可以為天地母。 吾不知其名，強字之日道。)​ ​ Song for Dispelling Doubts Concerning the Correct Path (破迷正道歌) says : The energy of The One circulates unimpededly. It exists within all things including human bodies. (一炁循環無阻礙，散在萬物與人身。)​ ​ Ultimate One the Heavenly Savior is also known as Ultimate One the Eastern Emperor (東皇太一). East, the direction that Ultimate One comes from, symbolizes the first state of the process towards Perfection. As it is written in Explanation for the GWAs (说卦) in The Scripture of Changes (易經) : God starts out from Tzan (the eastern Gwa).​ When He reaches Seon (the southeast Gwa), all things that He created are present.​ When He arrives at Ley (the southern Gwa), His creations become visible.​ When He reaches Kwan (the southwest Gwa), His creations are nourished and in labor.​ When He arrives at Deoy (the western Gwa), His creations speak His Words.​ When He reaches Kin (the northwest Gwa), the War happens.​ When He arrives at Ham (the northern Gwa), His creations reach the destination where all their works are gathered and accepted.​ When He reaches Gan (the northeast Gwa), His creations, which are manifestations of His Words, achieve Perfection. (帝出乎震，齊乎巽，相見乎離，致役乎坤，說言乎兌，戰乎乾，勞乎坎，成言乎艮。) ​ Buddhism Prajna-Paramita, the Mother of all Buddhas (般若佛母) Four-Armed Prajna-Paramita​ Six-Armed Prajna-Paramita​ Prajna-Paramita, a.k.a. Prajna Bodhisattva (般若菩薩), is a divine manifestation of the Wisdom (Prajna) of all Buddhas.As it is written in The Eight Thousand Lines Prajna-Paramita 108 Names Dharani Sutra (聖八千頌般若波羅蜜多一百八名真實圓義陀羅尼經) : Homage to the most exalted one, Prajna-Paramita the Mother of all Buddhas.​ Buddhas of the past, present and future, are all born from Her.​ With the ability of giving birth to all Buddhas, She is called Mother of Buddhas.​ The Eight Thousand Lines Prajna-Paramita 108 Names Dharani Sutra (聖八千頌般若波羅蜜多一百八名真實圓義陀羅尼經) also says: Prajna-Paramita has 108 names, which are :​ 1. Prajna-Paramita the most exalted one.​ 2. Universal Wisdom.​ 3. Wisdom of all manifestations.​ 4. Reality.​ 5. True Thusness.​ 6. Indestructible True Thusness​ …….​ 11. One who is formless like emptiness, and is free from wishes​ …….​ 15. Dharma nature.16. Dharma Realm​ …….​ 36. Mother of all Buddhas.​ 37. One who gives birth to all Boshisattvas.​ 38. One who gives birth to all voice-hearers and cause-awakened ones.​ 39. One who nourishes and maintains all worlds.​ 40. One who has infinite merits and blessings​ …….​ 100. Originally Motionless One​ …….​ According to these names, Prajna-Paramita is the Universal Wisdom, She is the same as True Thusness, Reality, and Dharma Realm. She is formless, invisible, intangible, but also indestructible. She nourishes and gives blessings to all worlds and living beings. The Nation-Protecting Prajna-Paramita Sutra Spoken for the Benevolent King (仁王護國般若波羅蜜多經) says: Prajna-Paramita is the Mother of all Buddhas and Bodhisattvas, and is the source of unique merits and divine power.​ Vajra Cutter Prajna-Paramita Sutra (能斷金剛般若波羅蜜多經) says : All saints, sages, and living beings are manifestations of the Motionless One.(諸賢聖補特伽羅皆是無為之所顯)​ In an English translation of Asta-Sahasrika Prajna-Paramita Sutra (Eight Thousand Lines Prajna-Paramita Sutra), the nature of Mother Prajna-Paramita is described as follows : SARIPUTRA: The Perfection of Wisdom shines forth as a sublime light, 0 Buddha nature. I sing this spontaneous hymn of light to praise Mother Prajnaparamita. She is worthy of infinite praise. She is utterly unstained, because nothing in this insubstantial world can possibly stain her. She is an ever-flowing fountain of incomparable light, and from every conscious being on every plane, she removes the faintest trace of illusory darkness. She leads living beings into her clear light from the blindness and obscurity caused by moral and spiritual impurity as well as by partial or distorted views of Reality. In her alone can we find true refuge. Sublime and excellent are her revelations through all persons of wisdom. She inspires and guides us to seek the safety and certainty of the bright wings of enlightenment. She pours forth her nectar of healing light to those who have made themselves appear blind. She provides the illumination through which all fear and despair can be utterly renounced.​ ​ She manifests the five mystic eyes of wisdom, the vision and penetration of each one more exalted than the last. She clearly and constantly points out the path of wisdom to every conscious being with the direct pointing that is her transmission and empowerment. She is an infinite eye of wisdom. She dissipates entirely the mental gloom of delusion. She does not manipulate any structures of relativity. Simply by shining spontaneously, she guides to the spiritual path whatever beings have wandered into dangerous, negative, self-centered ways.​ ​ ……​ ​ She is the universal benefactress who presents, as a sublime offering to truth, the limitless jewel of all Buddha qualities, the miraculous gem which generates the ten inconceivable powers of a Buddha to elevate living beings into consciousness of their innate Buddha nature. She can never be defeated in any way, on any level. She lovingly protects vulnerable conscious beings who cannot protect themselves, gradually generating in them unshakable fearlessness and diamond confidence. She is the perfect antidote to the poisonous view which affirms the cycle of birth and death to be a substantial reality. She is the clear knowledge of the open and transparent mode of being shared by all relative structures and events. Her transcendent knowing never wavers. She is the Perfect Wisdom who gives birthless birth to all Buddhas. And through these sublimely Awakened Ones, it is Mother Prajnaparamita alone who turns the wheel of true teaching.​ ​ LORD BUDDHA: Precisely so, beloved Sariputra.​ Manjusri Bodhisattva Manjusri holding the Sword of Wisdom and a Prajna-paramita Sutra, riding a lion​ Manjusri wielding the Sword of Wisdom, holding a Prajna-paramita Sutra, and riding a lion​ Manjusri Bodhisattva represents Prajna, the Wisdom of all Buddhas, hence he is honored as the Mother of all Buddhas of the past, present and future (三世佛母妙吉祥).As it is written in Mahayana Sutra on Contemplating the Ground-Like Heart Concerning the Legend of the Buddha (大乘本生心地觀經) : Manjusri the Great Holy Lord​ is the Mother of all Buddhas of the past, present and future.​ All Buddhas of the ten directions,​ when they first arouse their hearts to seek Bodhi,​ they do so because of Manjusri’s teaching and guidance.​ (文殊師利大聖尊，三世諸佛以為母，十方如來初發心，皆是文殊教化力。)​ Mahayana Sutra on Contemplating the Ground-Like Heart Concerning the Legend of the Buddha (大乘本生心地觀經) also says : The Buddha said to Manjusri: “You are indeed the Mother of all Buddhas of the past, presemt and future. All Tathagatas, when they first arouse their hearts, or carry out their practice for Bodhi, they do those things because of your guidance. “​ Placing the Bowl Sutra (佛說放鉢經) says : The Buddha said : “… I achieved Buddhahood all because of Manjusri’s benevolence. Furthermore, all the countless Buddhas in the past were disciples of Manjusri, and all those who will become Buddhas in the future, they will achieve Buddhahood because of Manjusri’s mightiness, benevolence, and divine power.”​ Manjusri Bodhisattva is also called Manjusri the Youth (Manjusri Kumara-bhuta), hinting that he has two important attributes : Wisdom and Eternal Youth. “Mañju” in Sanskrit menas lovely, beautiful, charming, sweet, pleasing, attractive, etc., denoting the eternal youth and beauty of the Bodhisattva, while “śrī” is used as an honorific meaning resplendence, wealth and prosperity. Therefore the name Mañjuśrī is literally translated into Chinese as 妙吉祥, which means Youthful Beauty and Blessing. As it is written in Holy Motionless Lord the Great Wrathful King’s Secret Dharani Sutra (聖無動尊大威怒王秘密陀羅尼経) : Youthful Beauty and Blessing Bodhisattva is the Mother who Awakens living beings in the past, present and future, therefore the Bodhisattva is named Manjusri.​ Similar to Ultimate One the Heavenly Savior in Taoism, Manjusri Bodhisattva also rides a lion, and comes from the east. As it is written in Buddha-Avatamsaka nama Maha-Vaipulya Sutra (大方廣佛華嚴經) : To the east, passing worlds as many as atoms in ten Buddha-Worlds, there was a world named Golden Color, the Buddha there was named Unwavering Wisdom. In that world, a Bodhisattva named Manjusri, together with other Bodhisattvas as many as atoms in ten Buddha-Worlds, came to visit the Buddha of this world.​ East, is the direction associated with Arousing the Bodhi-Heart, the first stage of Mahayana practice. In regular sense, Arousing the Bodhi-Heart can be alternatively translated as Bringing forth the Bodhi mind, Setting the resolve upon Awakening, etc., referring to the first stage of regular Mahayana practice. In the superior or Vajrayana sense, Arousing the Bodhi-Heart actually means Illuminating the Heart to Reveal the Path to Bodhi, referring to the first stage of True Bodhisattva practice. In both senses, Arousing the Bodhi-Heart is the first stage of cultivation, and is associated with the East direction, as well as the Eastern petal of the Eight-Petaled Lotus Flower.   Christianity Wisdom (Sophia), the Primordial Truth of the Universe Wisdom (Sophia)​ Σοφία the Divine Wisdom​ A feminine personification of Wisdom, or Understanding, is found in Proverbs, a Book of the Bible. Here are excerpts from the King James Version : 1:20 Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:​ 1:21 She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying,​ 1:22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?​ 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you​ …….​ ​ 8:1 Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?​ 8:2 She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths. (also translated as “at the meeting of the roads“[BBE] or “at the crossroads“[NAB].)​ 8:3 She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.​ 8:4 Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man.​ 8:5 O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.​ 8:6 Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things.​ 8:7 For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.​ 8:8 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.​ 8:9 They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.​ 8:10 Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.​ 8:11 For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.​ 8:12 I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.​ 8:13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.​ 8:14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.​ 8:15 By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.​ 8:16 By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.​ 8:17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.​ 8:18 Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.​ 8:19 My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.​ 8:20 I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:​ 8:21 That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.​ 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.​ 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.​ 8:24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.​ 8:25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:​ 8:26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.​ 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:​ 8:28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:​ 8:29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:​ 8:30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;​ 8:31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.​ 8:32 Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways.​ 8:33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.​ 8:34 Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.​ 8:35 For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD.​ 8:36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.​ ​ 9:1 Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars:​ 9:2 She hath killed her beasts; she hath mingled her wine; she hath also furnished her table.​ 9:3 She hath sent forth her maidens: she crieth upon the highest places of the city,​ 9:4 Whoso is simple, let him turn in hither: as for him that wanteth understanding, she saith to him,​ 9:5 Come, eat of my bread, and drink of the wine which I have mingled.​ 9:6 Forsake the foolish, and live; and go in the way of understanding.​ 9:7 He that reproveth a scorner getteth to himself shame: and he that rebuketh a wicked man getteth himself a blot.​ 9:8 Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.​ 9:9 Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning.​ 9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.​ 9:11 For by me thy days shall be multiplied, and the years of thy life shall be increased.​ 9:12 If thou be wise, thou shalt be wise for thyself: but if thou scornest, thou alone shalt bear it.​ 9:13 A foolish woman is clamorous: she is simple, and knoweth nothing.​ 9:14 For she sitteth at the door of her house, on a seat in the high places of the city,​ 9:15 To call passengers who go right on their ways:​ 9:16 Whoso is simple, let him turn in hither: and as for him that wanteth understanding, she saith to him,​ 9:17 Stolen waters are sweet, and bread eaten in secret is pleasant.​ 9:18 But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell.​ According to the above text, this Wisdom (Sophia) exists before the creation of heaven and earth. She is used by God to create everything in the universe, hence She is the Ultimate Truth within all manifestations of the universe. She is the wisdom, and also life, of all living beings. She leads living beings to Perfection by giving them Her bread and wine. Whoever eats Her bread and drinks Her wine will become wiser and live longer. alphone 11/01/2024  Visit Thread: https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/20975/

From his Exhortation to Philosophy translated by Thomas M. Johnson an American Platonist of 19th century.

Of Pythagoras and the life in accordance with his doctrines, and of the Pythagoreans, we treated sufficiently in our first book* we will now explain the remaining part of his system, beginning with the common preparatory training prescribed by his school in reference to all education and learning and virtue; a training which is not partial, only perfecting one in some particular good of all these but which, to speak simply, incites his cognitive powers to the acquirement of all disciplines, all sciences, all beautiful and noble actions in life, all species of culture – and, in a phrase, every thing which participates of the Beautiful. For neither without an awakening, caused by exhortation, from the natural lethargy, is it possible for one to apply himself suddenly to beautiful and noble studies; nor immediately to proceed to the apprehension of the highest and most perfect good, before his soul has been duly prepared by exhortation [which arouses his impulses to higher things, purifies his thoughts, and directs his actions].

* Iamblichus is referring to his Life of Pythagoras, to be found in the Prometheus Trust’s Iamblichus on the Mysteries and Life of Pythagoras, TTS vol. XVII.

From The Collected Works of Thomas Moore Johnson, Prometheus Trust 2015.

Nicholas Weeks 11/01/2024 

Visit Thread: https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/20977/

Drawn from from Seven Types of Atheism by John Gray,
(Chapter 2: “Secular Humanism: A Sacred Relic”, Penguin, 2019, p23-27)
My comments in (bold)

“While rejecting monotheism, the belief that humans are gradually improving, a central article of faith of modern humanism, is founded on pseudo-Christian monotheistic idealism.”

For the ancient world, time was seen as cyclic, and the rhythms of humanity were not essentially different from those found in the rest of the natural world – in none of its literature is any prospect of indefinite improvement. Civilizations flourish, but they will eventually decline, such is the natural order of things; cycles cannot be overcome, and if and when the gods intervene, often the result is a world more unpredictable and treacherous.

In the fifth century BC, Herodotus has the gods acting to punish wrongdoing, but there is no suggestion that they were interested in shaping the course of history. Thucydides has been called the father of ‘scientific history’. But for him there were no laws of history, only the fact of recurring human folly – a succession of mishaps in which human will and reason are confounded by human flaws.

In the Abrahamic monotheisms, and Christianity in particular, a definite end of the passage of time was in sight – Christ would return in glory and establish a New Jerusalem, the Kingdom of God on earth, but this speaks of the end of one cycle and the start of another, and furthermore never presupposed any idea of human progress towards the parousia, rather if anything it is the other way round, it would seem at the moment of humanity’s lowest ebb that this end will come about.

When in Europe religion began to be replaced by secular creeds, the Christian myth of history as a redemptive drama was not abandoned, but renewed in another guise. A story of redemption was replaced by one of progress through the collective efforts of humanity.

Apocalyptic mythologising fuelled the millenarian movements of medieval times, and emerged again in the millenarian movements in America, and is still around today with the idea of The Rapture. The country that put a man on the moon is also the place of origin of such materialist revisions of mystical ideas as Creationism and the Flat Earth Theory.

That sense of foreboding that gave rise to ‘superstition’ in the ancient world is present in secular ‘conspiracy theory’ today – it’s the same impulse.

Seventeenth century Protestantism recast this myth as human-centred. The belief that evil would be destroyed in an apocalyptic endtime was supplanted by the conviction of the march of Enlightenment that would diminish the darkness of history and the darkness seemingly inherent in human nature.

Indeed, the Enlightenment saw itself as the triumph of the rational (masculine) mind over reckless (feminine) nature – a creature to be tamed by science and put to work for the greater good (of the same class of entitled and privileged ol white men).

Emptied of its mystical and transcendental content, this myth is the source of modern meliorism – the idea that human life can is is gradually improved. It underpinned The Prosperity Gospel, the American Dream, and was the engine that drove colonialism.

Another element derived from Gnosticism – the belief that salvation was achieved by acquiring a special kind of knowledge.

In the classical philosophies of the ancient world this knowledge was a type of insight acquired through the practice of contemplation. In modern times it was knowledge gained through science. In each case it was believed that knowledge could bring deliverance from evil/darkness.

The modern myth of progress is a fusion of pseudoChristian faith and Gnostic thinking. Progress is linear, and science was the knowledge that would unlock the shackles of ignorance, open the doors to utopia, and set us free.

The idea of linear progress has never been examined as a possible falsifiable hypothesis. There just seems too much evidence. Evolution, as it still generally and mistakenly understood, means that everything is moving inexorably towards its own perfection. Likewise our technologies – agriculture, biology, cosmology, and so on march on apace.

For those who believe in progress, any regression is only a temporary halt in an onward march to a better world.

Yet if one looks at the historical record of the human species – as human – outside of the chimera of its technological achievements – it is hard to detect any continuing strand of improvement.

While there was nothing in the pagan world of the liberal concern for individual freedom, pluralism in ways of life was accepted as a matter of course. If heresy was introduced by monotheism, that mantle has been taken up by social media, by ‘cancel culture’ where threat and persecution abounds.

The secular world is forever reminding us, the medieval and early modern world was wracked by wars of religion. But faith-based violence has not faded away with the arrival of modernity. From the French Revolution on, Europe and much of the world has been caught up in revolutions and wars fuelled by secular creeds such as Jacobinism and communism, Nazism and fascism, and today a belligerently evangelical type of liberalism.

It is true that slavery and torture were flaws of premodern societies. But these practices have not disappeared. Slavery was reintroduced in the twentieth century on a vast scale in Nazi Germany and the Soviet and Maoist gulags. Slavery was outlawed after a civil war America, only to be replaced by the penal system in which the ‘underclass’ works for nothing to underpin the economy. Whole nations are enslaved to western economies to cater to the fad, fashions and fancies of the privileged few.

Human trafficking flourishes throughout much of the world and finds its outlet in the supposedly civilised West. Torture was sanctioned in the run-up to the invasion of Iraq in the face of every reasoned, rational and logical argument against it. The rendition flight are still in the air, and black sites exist in the most civilised states.

The cumulative increase of knowledge in science has no parallel in human ethics or politics, philosophy or the arts. Knowledge increases at an accelerating rate, but human beings are no more reasonable than they have ever been. Gains occur from time to time, but they are lost after a few generations.

What progress believers cannot digest is the fact that gains in ethics and politics come and go according to expedience. They are not given. They are not embedded in, or even intrinsic to, human nature. Altruism is a secular invention to replace Christian agape.

When secular thinkers tell the history of humankind as a story of progress they point at technology and flatter themselves that they embody the progress of which that speaks. As if agriculture, or medicines or flying machines means the human person is covering a similar distance in the development and evolution of being – heading into a future that is morally and ethically as bright as it is technologically, that somehow technology is the proof of that, as if meaning and value and morality and ethics is derived from the lens, the lever or the wheel.

They forget that science and technology are void of ethics and morals – and will happily produce toxic nerve agents as it will vaccines; it will invent weapons of unimaginable, world-ending destructive power, without batting an eye or question for whom this weapon is being developed, or why.

Meanwhile, we live in a world of social media that evidences an ever-increasing militant intolerance.

Instead of being left behind, old evils return under new names. Nothing changes. So it goes.

Thomas 12/01/2024

Visit Thread: https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/20980/

Hello Fellow Homo sapiens:

Homo sapiens means wise humans. Let’s work at it!

I come from a Jewish background, and as a pre-teen could not understand how adults could believe in the Old Testament. It was obviously mythology.

These childhood observations led me to become interested in a number of related areas, like other religions, psychology, physics, etc. I wanted to know what the evidence showed, and why people willfully ignored the evidence.

While pursuing my professional career in the nuclear power industry, I didn’t have much time to pursue these interests, but now that I’m retired, I’m good to go.

When communicating on the Internet, I unfortunately find that in discussing these issues, many religious people feel they are being “attacked”. Criticism is not “attacking”. I welcome criticism, and “attacks”. Tell me why you think I’m wrong, and if your evidence or logic is sound, I will have learned something.

Thank you in advance.

Naturalist Jan 6, 2024

Visit Thread: https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/20963/

Hi Amir Alzzalam –

I’ve picked up the discussion from the Sapere aude thread, because it seems more relevant here –

‘Amir Alzzalam said:

When I use the word ‘faith’ I mean it in the way that I have faith the sun will rise tomorrow morning, as it has for a long time, I also have faith that the tenets of the Western Left Hand Path work as they are demonstrable and consistent.

If I read you correctly, here and elsewhere, faith as you describe it here is based on a reasonable assumption based on experience – eg. the sun invariably rises in the east, and barring some catastrophe, will continue to do so … that kind of thing?

But for the outsider, the certitude of the sun rising in the east is not a philosophical question, it’s an objective actuality. The LHP is not the same order of thing.

‘Amir Alzzalam said:

The LHP is a philosophy that doesn’t require objective proof.

A question then – without detracting in any way from the LHP as such – is without objectively-observable criteria, how do you present the LHP to another? Moreover, how can you reason it to someone who doubts its credibility?

(One doesn’t have to convince another that the sun will rise in the east tomorrow – just ask them to look for themselves.)

That the LHP is demonstrable and consistent to you, according to your own satisfaction, may well be the case – but I am not sure what grounds you can offer it as reasonable and rational, etc?

To be clear – I am not trying to disprove the LHP, but I am suggesting it’s somewhat disingenuous to refute a theism so vociferously when your own path is subject to the same critical dismissal?

How do you answer the accusation of the LHP being simply a fantasy within one’s imagination?

‘Amir Alzzalam said:

What is referred to as Apotheosis on the Western Left Hand Path … entails realizing one’s Greater Self, and bringing this Self into your everyday life in order to become more than Human.

How does the LHP describe or define the ‘Greater Self’?
How is the Greater Self more than human?
How does one know one has realised this Greater Self?

Thomas 13/01/2024

Visit Thread: https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/20981/