Israel. Super Power?

[enlightenment]

It's a simple question.

The term super power became v popular during the cold war, and beyond.

Yet no one ever seems sure of what the tick boxes are to be a super power.

Some would argue that China are today a super power.

Others argue that they are not.

So I am not sure what yardstick the use to qualify nations.

If it is real political influence, then I would argue that Israel is a super power.

If it is financial wealth, then Israel are a super power.

If it is the capability to defend and attack with great power, then they are a super power.

It is a coming of age for any aspiring super power to have much blood on their hands, so if they have that, then they are well on their way to being called a super power.

Of course, if population and land mass play a part, then Israel would not be a super power, yet I do not see that as intrinsic to being a super power, at all.

After all, a relatively small nation (Germany) came v close to conquering the entire free world, evidence that you do not need to be a huge nation to make a huge impact.

How do you vote...

 

[enlightenment]

I voted for the first choice - I think they tick many of the boxes of what we would define to be a super power.

If we accept that they are, by definition, a super power, then we must accept that it is potentially dangerous to have such a small nation, and geographically placed in a volatile land, as a super power.

 

[juantoo3]

If we accept that they are, by definition, a super power, then we must accept that it is potentially dangerous to have such a small nation, and geographically placed in a volatile land, as a super power.

Why must we accept the one conclusion if we agree with the other? I see no connection. Many of the world's so-called "superpowers" are surrounded by nations that are not superpowers.

Does having access to nuclear weapons qualify a nation to be a superpower? If so, what do you have to say about Pakistan and India, nuclear powers both, and long time adversaries as well? *That* is volatile.

 

[enlightenment]

Why must we accept the one conclusion if we agree with the other? I see no connection. Many of the world's so-called "superpowers" are surrounded by nations that are not superpowers.

Does having access to nuclear weapons qualify a nation to be a superpower? If so, what do you have to say about Pakistan and India, nuclear powers both, and long time adversaries as well? *That* is volatile.

Correct.

What you write re India and Pakistan. Cannot disagree that that set up is volatile, definitely so.

However, this was really more about Israel.

Anyway, to answer your question, a super power, least of all one who are located in an unfriendly environments, is possibly not the best for world peace, that was the only point that I was making.

 

[juantoo3]

Peace is what nations make of it.

 

[Tao_Equus]

Israel has the power to have the US paying for its military and to have it come running to help should it look vulnerable. So of course it is a super power, though it could be seen as the flea controlling the dog.

趁熱打鐵

 

[enlightenment]

Israel has the power to have the US paying for its military and to have it come running to help should it look vulnerable. So of course it is a super power, though it could be seen as the flea controlling the dog.

趁熱打鐵

What's in this alliance for the US?

Can't see them doing all that without there being big incentives for them.

 

[farhan]

For the people of US, nothing. That is nothing but the moral high they get from the propaganda that tells them that they are wasting their money to "save the only democracy in the middleeast" ..."for the victims of the biggest suffering of all times" ...... "from the enemies of freedom, democracy, civilization, liberties, blah blah blah...". What an ecstasy

For the US-zios

Jewish zios get free money to sustain control of the land they bought from the previous race that colonized it.

Christian zios get a country to be used as a bait for you know who....

Common Americans .... keep them hypnotized .... don't let them wakeup.

Israel isnt geographically placed in a volatile land, the land got volatile after Israel was created there. The moment zio-influence is removed from middle east, arabs might throw the shahs, which is a scary thought for the free world.

A country is a superpower based on its own power (All kinds), not upon migration from Russia & $ from US. I would say the only real superpower right now is China. US is going down very fast. The future of EU & Russia is uncertain.

 

[enlightenment]

For the people of US, nothing. That is nothing but the moral high they get from the propaganda that tells them that they are wasting their money to "save the only democracy in the middleeast" ..."for the victims of the biggest suffering of all times" ...... "from the enemies of freedom, democracy, civilization, liberties, blah blah blah...". What an ecstasy

For the US-zios

Jewish zios get free money to sustain control of the land they bought from the previous race that colonized it.

Christian zios get a country to be used as a bait for you know who....

Common Americans .... keep them hypnotized .... don't let them wakeup.

Israel isnt geographically placed in a volatile land, the land got volatile after Israel was created there. The moment zio-influence is removed from middle east, arabs might throw the shahs, which is a scary thought for the free world.

A country is a superpower based on its own power (All kinds), not upon migration from Russia & $ from US. I would say the only real superpower right now is China. US is going down very fast. The future of EU & Russia is uncertain.

I think what we will see is an even greater increase in cartel style empire building, large and well equipped nations literally trying to take land and resource from smaller nations, as well as various alliances cropping up, and that in time, this will all lead to a more singular world governance.

Perhaps not quite the one world gov that conspiracy theorists go on about, but certainly something removed from that which we see today.

The US may try to forge a greater alliance with Canada, and possibly even it's Central American and South American neighbours. Might be in their interests, esp since Venzuala have a lot of oil...

This world leadership of sorts will be made up of major players from the US, China, Russia, Israel, and possibly one other.

Between them, I expect their leaders to sit down and literally draw up a road map of how they want the world to look, in 50 years.

I think we may see Russia try to reassert itself over old communist nations, and free baltic states again.

I think that the EU will continue to survive, and that is may grow apart from the policies of the US, to the extent that it becomes a possible future US target?

No matter what nationality or religion you attach to it though, it always comes down to the same thing - man wishing for world domination.

 

[wil]

Israel has the power to have the US paying for its military and to have it come running to help should it look vulnerable. So of course it is a super power, though it could be seen as the flea controlling the dog.

趁熱打鐵

Yes Israel receives its power at the behest of the US gov't, if the funding were cut off there would be trouble. Same with China, if our consumers quit buying they'd be in trouble as well.

For the people of US, nothing.

Israel is the only US ally and stronghold in the middle east. Hence our support. Sure we are in bed with the Saudis but that is only due to our fantastic number one foriegn policy rule, the enemy of our enemy is our friend.

The US may try to forge a greater alliance with Canada, and possibly even it's Central American and South American neighbours. Might be in their interests, esp since Venzuala have a lot of oil...

Yes first the NAU (MexiCanUS) and then Central American countries will slowly be added.. The Asian countries will form thier co-op as will the middle east and the Africans

.it all comes down to the same thing - man wishing for world domination.

yeppers... hasn't stopped since the beginning of 'civilization' (oxymoron?).

 

[c0de]

It's a simple question.

The term super power became v popular during the cold war, and beyond.

Yet no one ever seems sure of what the tick boxes are to be a super power.

Some would argue that China are today a super power.

Others argue that they are not.

So I am not sure what yardstick the use to qualify nations.

If it is real political influence, then I would argue that Israel is a super power.

If it is financial wealth, then Israel are a super power.

If it is the capability to defend and attack with great power, then they are a super power.

It is a coming of age for any aspiring super power to have much blood on their hands, so if they have that, then they are well on their way to being called a super power.

Of course, if population and land mass play a part, then Israel would not be a super power, yet I do not see that as intrinsic to being a super power, at all.

After all, a relatively small nation (Germany) came v close to conquering the entire free world, evidence that you do not need to be a huge nation to make a huge impact.

How do you vote...

"In the game of chess... even the King is just a playing piece"

Metal Gear Solid: Sons of Liberty

and Israel btw, is not the King.

 

[enlightenment]

"In the game of chess... even the King is just a playing piece"

Metal Gear Solid: Sons of Liberty

and Israel btw, is not the King.

Maybe not the king of kings, no.

But is there such a position, even informally..?

I suppose the usual suspects would be the only one's quoted...

 

[farhan]

I think what we will see is an even greater increase in cartel style empire building, large and well equipped nations literally trying to take land and resource from smaller nations, as well as various alliances cropping up, and that in time, this will all lead to a more singular world governance.

Thats one way things might go. And then there is another way. Since capitalist recessions occur at the end of an over consumption/production phase, the only way to end it is to destroy the products & production facilities. And restart a new cycle of nonsence production/consumption.

Depression creates war. War once started is driven by its own momentum. It itself decides who will rule & who will turn into ashes. Lets see...

Perhaps not quite the one world gov that conspiracy theorists go on about, but certainly something removed from that which we see today.

If you take a look at post WW2 economics, you will realize we are all a part of one global gov. And no, its not the gov Americans elect for them selves. These gov people are themselves pawns.
Back in those days, who told the world dollar is as good as gold? Then how exactly dollar was suddenly made devoid of any gold standard? Dollar runs all global economy, people who print dollar on worthless pieces of paper are infinitely rich. Infinitely rich rule the world.

The US may try to forge a greater alliance with Canada, and possibly even it's Central American and South American neighbours. Might be in their interests, esp since Venzuala have a lot of oil...

Amereo?

I think we may see Russia try to reassert itself over old communist nations, and free baltic states again.

It has already begun, if you see russian media. Georgia was one example. Russia is also reopening her nuclear ports in Syria. They are testing their new ICBMs & Jets. China has got new 4.5 generation jets, & according to rumours, a stealth bomber.

US & EU are in a very tricky situation right now. US is funding "seige china" war with chinese money. Both China/Russia wont allow US-EU in Central Asia. And the moment American grip weakens, Arabs might revolt against the poodle shahs.

I think that the EU will continue to survive, and that is may grow apart from the policies of the US, to the extent that it becomes a possible future US target?

I dont think EU can fight US. EU will always be a US side kick

Israel is the only US ally and stronghold in the middle east. Hence our support. Sure we are in bed with the Saudis but that is only due to our fantastic number one foriegn policy rule, the enemy of our enemy is our friend.

I never said America isnt getting anything from this relationship. I said Americans arnt geting any. There are two ways of getting oil from ME. One is the chinese way. Invest money in people, & get oil. Other way is American. Invest in minion dictators, & get oil. If rather than investing in Israel, US invested that money in Arab people, Arabs would have sold all their oil to US, without any shoes attached (They have to sell it to somebody)

People who don't learn from history are condemned to repeat it. Americans funded this so called war on terror with their hard earned money, without even realizing that it was this same money that was used by their gov to invent terrorism 30 years ago, to kill another evil empire. Thanks to "enemy of enemy" foreign policy thousands have lost their job in US. They got nothing.

When Ottomans first discovered oil in northern Iraq (now American Kurdistan), they made it "public property" according to the Islamic rulings. A big part of support Israel policies has got to with this scary reality of Islam too. Islamic revolution of Iran is also an allergic reaction to the same problem.

US is hated allover the ME because of mainly Israel (Now there are many other reasons too). American people didnt get anything from this relationship. The only people who got something from this hegemonic foreign poilcy are the construction & oil companies. And ofcourse, the lobby.

I once read this somewhere on the net,"They say Israel is our only friend in MiddleEast, they dont tell you that before Israel, we didnt have any enemies in that region."

 

[bananabrain]

oh great, another thread with loads of israel-bashers violently agreeing about how israel is responsible for all the bad things that have ever happened. how you think this is appropriate for an interfaith forum is beyond me.

If it is real political influence, then I would argue that Israel is a super power.

why don't you argue it then, rather than asserting it? in what does this "influence" consist? or are you just quoting the "protocols"?

If it is financial wealth, then Israel are a super power.

and, again, how are you measuring this? gdp is the traditional way, oh, look, the israelis are in the low forties and fifties, below such superpowers as romania, the united arab emirates and iran.

List of countries by GDP (nominal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
List of countries by GDP (PPP - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

sheesh.

If it is the capability to defend and attack with great power, then they are a super power.

more vague, emotive language. do you mean nuclear power? why don't you say what you mean, or are you afraid it'll expose you as a bigot?

It is a coming of age for any aspiring super power to have much blood on their hands, so if they have that, then they are well on their way to being called a super power.

and is there a "blood on your hands per capita" measure, then? how does israel do compared to, say, zimbabwe, congo, china, rwanda, syria or any number of other places? and how far back are your figures going?

After all, a relatively small nation (Germany) came v close to conquering the entire free world, evidence that you do not need to be a huge nation to make a huge impact.

and straight in with the "israelis are nazis" comparison. congratulations. in fact, germany is still europe's most populous nation and certainly one of its larger ones, certainly larger than the UK or italy.

we must accept that it is potentially dangerous to have such a small nation, and geographically placed in a volatile land, as a super power.

and your solution to this would be...? kill all the jews, perhaps?

a super power, least of all one who are located in an unfriendly environments, is possibly not the best for world peace, that was the only point that I was making.

so, if it was friendly with the surrounding countries, that would be all right then? can you tell us which superpower is *not* located in an unfriendly environment?

No matter what nationality or religion you attach to it though, it always comes down to the same thing - man wishing for world domination.

yes, it's all there in the "protocols", isn't it, mate?

Israel has the power to have the US paying for its military

and i wonder, tao, how do you think it got this "power"? i'd be interested, incidentally, if anyone can provide a link to a table of defence spending as a percentage of GDP for israel compared to other middle eastern countries - certainly they spend less than, say, saudi arabia, iran or syria as a percentage of GDP... but then again, it doesn't sound like we're interested in facts, does it?

Jewish zios get free money to sustain control of the land they bought from the previous race that colonized it.

what a bunch of racist conspiracy-theory nonsense. it may suit you, farhan, to believe that the arab nations have no responsibility for the dreadful mess that most of them are in, but blaming the jews and US is simply wishful thinking. so the early zionists bought land from the turks, is that your point? why don't you go and complain to them? and what about the jewish assets confiscated by arab nations from the jewish communities they kicked out which were, in many cases, there before the arab conquests under islam? what happened to that money, farhan? we weren't allowed to take it with us. why don't you ask the bunch of tinpot petty thugs that run the arab world? israel doesn't have any oil - they gave what little there was in the sinai back to the egyptians in return for peace in 1979. how come you lot have all the oil and yet you're still economic basket cases? oh, *clearly* it must be all the fault of the "jewish zios". this sort of rejectionist claptrap is the reason that the palestinians are still suffering - people like you are waving them like a banner; you're using their suffering to make you feel better about yourself; and you're supposed to be their "brother"? small wonder the palestinians i know are sickened by the gap between the rhetoric and the reality. why are the palestinians in lebanon and syria still in refugee camps nearly 60 YEARS later, farhan? why did black september happen? when was the last time israel killed 25,000 arabs IN A DAY, farhan? an arab leader did - Hama massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Israel isnt geographically placed in a volatile land, the land got volatile after Israel was created there.

what utter CRAP. ever heard of the crusades, farhan? ever heard of the roman empire? ever heard of the persian empire? ever h
eard of the arab revolt against the ottomans? of course, you can believe this stuff if you choose, but you've only got yourself to blame when reality fails to match your picture. the islamic world has been in decline since the time of the great ottoman sultans and the arab world even longer. i think you need a slightly better argument than "ooh, it's all the jews' fault, we were perfectly happy playing shesh-besh and eating hummus under our olive trees when those buggers came along and ruined everthing".

The moment zio-influence is removed from middle east, arabs might throw the shahs, which is a scary thought for the free world.

the *shahs*? who, the iranians? the arab world's leaders? you're living in a baathist dream world. the "arabs" didn't exactly overthrow saddam after 1990, did they? and who's going to "remove" it, exactly?

If rather than investing in Israel, US invested that money in Arab people, Arabs would have sold all their oil to US, without any shoes attached (They have to sell it to somebody)

and if you didn't have any oil, farhan, what would you have? tell me how many patents get filed in the arab world, farhan? how many original books and papers get written? how much scientific research is done? how much do you know about innovation? at the end of the day, when the oil runs out, what happens next?

i can't believe this sort of self-delusion still goes on.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[enlightenment]

oh great, another thread with loads of israel-bashers violently agreeing about how israel is responsible for all the bad things that have ever happened. how you think this is appropriate for an interfaith forum is beyond me.

I cannot recall anyone on here, esp on this thread, blaming Israel for 'all the bad things that have happened'. Can you show this? If not, then a retraction and apology to all those that have added to it would be nice. Are you suggesting that Israel should somehow be above examination of it's behaviour? Surely not. No. You couldn't be suggesting that. This is the political section of a forum. I asked a politically related question. Silly me. I guess that is why I felt it appropriate, in this section...


why don't you argue it then, rather than asserting it? in what does this "influence" consist? or are you just quoting the "protocols"?

Protocols? Puh-lease!!!


more vague, emotive language. do you mean nuclear power? why don't you say what you mean, or are you afraid it'll expose you as a bigot?

Not at all. I am not bigot, and resent you suggesting that I might be? I would hope for an apology to that one too, only I am going to guess that you are the sort too full of yourself to offer one, right?


and is there a "blood on your hands per capita" measure, then? how does israel do compared to, say, zimbabwe, congo, china, rwanda, syria or any number of other places? and how far back are your figures going?

Wanna talk about those nations? Start a thread on them. This one is about Israel. Thanks.



and your solution to this would be...? kill all the jews, perhaps?

WTF? Where do you get off stating such a thing to anyone on here? That is a terrible thing to write, and you, a moderator on here, should really know better. Again, an apology would go some way to showing that you are a better person that your statement would indicate.


so, if it was friendly with the surrounding countries, that would be all right then? can you tell us which superpower is *not* located in an unfriendly environment?


yes, it's all there in the "protocols", isn't it, mate?

I have no idea what you are talking about, and I am not your 'mate'.


and i wonder, tao, how do you think it got this "power"? i'd be interested, incidentally, if anyone can provide a link to a table of defence spending as a percentage of GDP for israel compared to other middle eastern countries - certainly they spend less than, say, saudi arabia, iran or syria as a percentage of GDP... but then again, it doesn't sound like we're interested in facts, does it?


what a bunch of racist conspiracy-theory nonsense. it may suit you, farhan, to believe that the arab nations have no responsibility for the dreadful mess that most of them are in, but blaming the jews and US is simply wishful thinking. so the early zionists bought land from the turks, is that your point? why don't you go and complain to them? and what about the jewish assets confiscated by arab nations from the jewish communities they kicked out which were, in many cases, there before the arab conquests under islam? what happened to that money, farhan? we weren't allowed to take it with us. why don't you ask the bunch of tinpot petty thugs that run the arab world? israel doesn't have any oil - they gave what little there was in the sinai back to the egyptians in return for peace in 1979. how come you lot have all the oil and yet you're still economic basket cases? oh, *clearly* it must be all the fault of the "jewish zios". this sort of rejectionist claptrap is the reason that the palestinians are still suffering - people like you are waving them like a banner; you're using their suffering to make you feel better about yourself; and you're supposed to be their "brother"? small wonder the palestinians i know are sickened by the gap between the rhetoric and the reality. why are the palestinians in lebanon and syria still in refugee camps nearly 60 YEARS later, farhan? why did black september happen? when was the last time israel killed 25,000 arabs IN A DAY, farhan? an arab leader did - Hama massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


what utter CRAP. ever heard of the crusades, farhan? ever heard of the roman empire? ever heard of the persian empire? ever h
eard of the arab revolt against the ottomans? of course, you can believe this stuff if you choose, but you've only got yourself to blame when reality fails to match your picture. the islamic world has been in decline since the time of the great ottoman sultans and the arab world even longer. i think you need a slightly better argument than "ooh, it's all the jews' fault, we were perfectly happy playing shesh-besh and eating hummus under our olive trees when those buggers came along and ruined everthing".


the *shahs*? who, the iranians? the arab world's leaders? you're living in a baathist dream world. the "arabs" didn't exactly overthrow saddam after 1990, did they? and who's going to "remove" it, exactly?


and if you didn't have any oil, farhan, what would you have? tell me how many patents get filed in the arab world, farhan? how many original books and papers get written? how much scientific research is done? how much do you know about innovation? at the end of the day, when the oil runs out, what happens next?

i can't believe this sort of self-delusion still goes on.

b'shalom

bananabrain

I can't believe that you have managed to insult just about everyone that added to this poll, and will most likely continue in such a manner, rather than go off and think about your conduct.

 

[bananabrain]

Are you suggesting that Israel should somehow be above examination of it's behaviour? Surely not.

certainly not. but you are not examining it. you are standing as judge, jury and executioner based upon nothing but sweeping generalisations and assertions. i am suggesting that your purpose on this thread is to vilify israel based upon prejudice, ignorance, double standards and insinuation. it is the last bit i object to most, the "have you quit beating your wife?" sort of question which - of *course* - you already know the answer to, don't you? in short, your questions are specious, because they're not really questions. more to the point, this question has been discussed ad nauseam countless times and you are adding nothing to the debate but a rather sinister suggestion of world domination. rather than let you drip this poison into the discourse, i am asking you straight out what you mean by it.

the reason that i mention the protocols is that this tsarist forgery suggests that jews control the world's money and, by extension, its political systems. you co-opt this argument by suggesting that israel, though a small place, seems to you to exercise a disproportionate influence on world affairs. you do so without making direct statements, leaving people to fill in the gaps. that is called insinuation. as for calling you a bigot, if the hat fits, then i'm going to make you wear it. if you don't like being called a duck, stop quacking, or it's orange sauce for you, pal.

Wanna talk about those nations? Start a thread on them. This one is about Israel. Thanks.

if you are trying to argue that israel is a superpower, then you must do that with reference to other superpowers and countries that are not superpowers. comparison is a basic ingredient in any kind of critical analysis. if you are arguing that israel is more rich, more influential, or violent, or whatever it is than other countries with more natural resources, people or land, then that requires us to examine this extraordinary claim in the light of available statistics. as it is, you are making vague, unsubstantiated accusations, but when these are examined they can be shown to have no content whatsoever other than your own preconceived notions.

WTF? Where do you get off stating such a thing to anyone on here? That is a terrible thing to write, and you, a moderator on here, should really know better. Again, an apology would go some way to showing that you are a better person that your statement would indicate.

you have stated that "it is potentially dangerous to have such a small nation, and geographically placed in a volatile land, as a super power". so how exactly would you prevent this nation from being a super power, as you argue? would you remove it, somehow? how is that to be done without bloodshed? all i am pointing out, to save time as far as i am concerned, is that history has already shown us (starting with that pharaoh in egypt) that the easiest answer is always to kill those of whom you disapprove. this is the direct implication of your statements so far and if you are genuinely unaware of it then this should be a wake-up call as to the sort of ideological company you are keeping. if you don't want to be a bigot, i'm frankly doing you a favour by pointing you out where this road comes out.

i should note at this point that in response to your vaguely worded questions, i have asked a number of specific clarificatory questions in order to get at the actual meat of the matter. so far you have not chosen to respond. for your ease and comfort, i'll reiterate them.

1. of what does this putative "political influence" that you cite consist? how is it measured?
2. how are you measuring the way in which "financial wealth" makes one a superpower?
3. how are you measuring "capacity to defend and attack with great power"?
4. how are you quantifying "much blood on their hands"
5. for questions 1-4, which countries are you using for comparison and over what time period?
6. why did you choose germany in particular as a comparator, using the context of "conquering the free world"? are you suggesting that there are specific similarities between israel and nazi germany? are you suggesting that israel wishes to do the same?
7. you make the statement i mentioned earlier about it being "dangerous" to allow israel to be a superpower - but how does one prevent a nation-state from being a superpower by means other than war? how does one disposess a nation-state of its territory or inhabitants without bloodshed?
8. which superpower is *not* located in an unfriendly environment?
9. you state that "it always comes down to the same thing - man wishing for world domination." what evidence can you bring to support this in the case of israel?
10. do you know what israel spends on defence as a percentage of GDP compared to other middle eastern countries? (n.b. i ask this because i also have questions about the extent and purpose of US military aid to israel and have heard it suggested, usually by pro-israelis with whom i disagree, that this enables them to compete on a level playing field with their larger and richer [islamic] neighbours)

if these questions are too difficult and detailed for you to answer it may be a clue that your original statements cannot actually be substantiated in any meaningful fashion - at least not without bigotry to fill in the gaps.

as for farhan, he has clearly been brainwashed by the sort of tendentious hogwash they teach as history in arab schools, where the whole middle east imbroglio is always presented as "Big Bad Racist Zionists Swindle Peaceful Enlightened Arabs Out Of Their Historic Patrimony With Help From Western Imperialists With Jewish Money" and all critical analysis that disagrees with this is discouraged. normally i let it go but i've had more than enough of it. for the record, i am not even right wing. i think that the occupation of the west bank is a bad thing for israel and i think that there should be a palestinian state, at least until we can grow out of needing to have nation-states. i also think that the israelis have committed many injustices to the palestinians for which they must make restitution if there is to be any peace - but that is not the only thing going on here and i absolutely reject the vainglorious narrative that has allowed the muslim world to use the palestinians as a stick to beat the israelis with whilst refusing to accept any responsibility for the situation themselves and whilst treating the palestinians, in many cases, worse than the israelis ever have.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[enlightenment]

Blah, blah, etc, etc.

To be honest, I don't really feel drawn to discussing this with you, given how you insulted me and others, on this thread.

Life is too short, sir.

Thanks

 

[bananabrain]

sounds like someone doesn't actually want to actually substantiate his accusations. well, that doesn't surprise me one little bit.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[17th Angel]

I voted no, they are too busy ******* themselves up and the surronding area to have time to grow lol....

 

[c0de]

Shalom BB

oh great, another thread with loads of israel-bashers violently agreeing about how israel is responsible for all the bad things that have ever happened. how you think this is appropriate for an interfaith forum is beyond me.

I can understand why you would think that. The tendency to blame Israel for everything is usually very strong. And I am not even talking about Muslims. Historically speaking, Jews have been the scapegoats for just about everything.

I am taking a course on Israeli identity and the professor is a very recognized Israeli political scientist. He said that when Israel was created, it was almost an official state policy of Israel to see itself as lacking any support from the other international states. Its like Ben Gurion used to say: "UN shmumph!" (whatever UN!!). Can you imagine the leader of any other country actually saying this publicly about the UN? (LoL!) I dont blame the Israelis for thinking as such... I mean after all, even their greatest ally, the US, is only using them for its own purposes, and I think that Israelis know this in their heart or hearts.

Anyways... I would just like to say that I for one do not blame Israel for everything. I realize that Israel and the Israelis are caught in a cycle that is much bigger then them. They are not responsible for the conditions that have been created, as the arab leaders who were present were willing partners in the whole game since the start. This is not about good vs evil... I wish the world was that simple, but it is not. Not anymore.

With that said though, I would still say that if I was to choose between a Palestinian kid throwing a rock and a Merkava Mk. IV tank on the other side of the road, I would choose to stand on the side of the kid. But not because I side with hamas/PLO/Palestinian nationalism of any kind... nor would I choose to stand against the Israeli tank because I refuse to recognize Israel's right to exist (I fully acknowledge it's right to exist as a simple matter of fact), but simply because in this situation, I see Israel as the Goliath, and the Palestinian as the proverbial David (Peace be upon him). But even in that situation I still recognize that the Arab states themselves betray the Palestinians everyday when they refuse to allow them to migrate to their countries.

In the end, the Israelis, IMO really do not have the right to fantasize about their great victories because ultimately, their survival was guaranteed from the start by the real superpowers of the world. And the Arabs really have no right to complain because they lost all the wars.... Sure their historical leaders betrayed them and the fight was fixed from the start (every single war was fixed and it is so obvious), so what? Thats life. Deal with it.