Can we bargain with God ?

[dailogue is the best]

Dialogue, you are comparing apple and oranges. When A&E lived sin had not existed on the earth yet. Also we need to consider how serius that sin was. It was so tempting that they were willing to risk their life for it. What sin can be passed on from generation to generation ? It was not eating an apple.

Since Adam and Eve sinned, then there was a readiness in both of them to sin. Accordingly, we can deduce that man is created weak and sinful from the very beginning.

All your examples have to do with already fallen human beings which we know have two masters and are not so reliable.

Actually, there are no fallen human beings and unfallen ones. We are all created to be on earth. We are all created weak and sinful from Adam untill now so that we seek perfection in our relation with God. The right meaning of being fallen is to turn away from God's teachings and disobey Him. Spiritual fall...

God does not interfer with our portion of responsibility.

Right, Soleil10. I agree with you. God has given a space for choice/responsibilty as you said.

Yet, God always interfer. Someone wants to hurt you for example. God has given him the choice to do that. Yet, it is up to God if that hurt may touch you or not. If It touched you. It is God who wills, and there is a wisdom behind. If not, then it is God who wills it, and there is a wisdom behind.

It is our short reasoning that unables us to see God's intervention. Do you rememeber the story I told you. It is God who intervined and let the bullet be in the shop owner's heart. Many things happens daily with us, and we assume it is by chance and coincidence. There is no chance and coincidence. Everything is done according to God's will, everything.

God did not intervine during the fall.

Simply because it was what He wanted. He created man to be on earth, not to stay in heaven. All the life of Adam and Eve in the garden was only a training period for the humanity task on earth..

This is such a twisted explanation. I am sorry. No parent want his children to be weak so they fail and seek refuge and develop a relationship. Parents want their children to be even better than them. Of course we all go through a growing period when our body and our spirit go from childhood to maturity.

You said it, Soleil10: We all go through a growing period..from maturity to childhood. Now, can you answer me please: How can you move by your child safe to maturity if he doesnt depend on you and asks for your help?! Would you oblige him to listen to you?! Would you force him to do what you want?! From here, we find that the wisdom behind creating man spiritually weak is for the benefit of that human being in order to turn to God, asks His help and establish a love relation with Him.

Of course, God doesnt want at all that His creatures be weak. That's why, He asks them to be very strong in the face of all the temptations. Yet, this weakness is very necessary for a human being to feel his/her need of God, and hence be connected to Him.

I hope it is clear now, Soleil10.

If Adam and Eve had not fell, there would have be no need for a Messiah or even religion.

It is God's plan from the very beginnig, Soleil, to create man to be on earth and to send down Holy Books, and send prophets and messangers..
God's plan is one and the same from the very start untill now. His will is always done, and it cant never be undone.

What you are saying is so cruel. It is even hard to believe you could even say it. God has all the power, all the knowledge and all the money he wants but He created for love. God needs love to be returned to him.His heart is broken seeing his children suffer. Go tell someone in a concentration camp or a dying child in Africa that their suffering is God's plan.
That is a sick and monstruous thing to say.

Well, Soleil, I know that what I am saying may seem cruel and harsh. But, let me tell you, brother, that our knowledge is relative...yes, very very relative. We cant hold that we have the whole knowledge. The shop owner who was killed took the sympathy of all those who were present at the time of the accident, but when we came to know the reality, we knew that he himself was very cruel and unjust.

The problem, brother, is that we know just one chapter of the whole story. We dont know everything, hence our judgements are relative.

It seems that Azure, Winner and you are sharing the same kind of belief. Am I correct ?

If you mean the belief in God's will, then yes, I think so...

 

[soleil10]

Since Adam and Eve sinned, then there was a readiness in both of them to sin. Accordingly, we can deduce that man is created weak and sinful from the very beginning

I would not call it readiness to sin. Everything in God creation go through a period of growth. Adam and Eve too. For this reason God gave them the commandement to compensate for that.
I cannot say small child is weak and sinful since he has not sin yet. As a parent I will give him advice and instruction to compensate for his lack of experience and ask him for his Obedience. I strongly disagree with you because it would be like an insult to God to create Adam and Eve ready for sin.
In Gen 1:31 says that everything was vey good. It does not say sinfull and weak.

Actually, there are no fallen human beings and unfallen ones. We are all created to be on earth. We are all created weak and sinful from Adam untill now so that we seek perfection in our relation with God. The right meaning of being fallen is to turn away from God's teachings and disobey Him. Spiritual fall...

Before the fall God did not create sinful beings. It is an insane statement.
A Perfect God does not create sinful creatures, Impossible, illogical and irrational. No way baby !!!!

Right, Soleil10. I agree with you. God has given a space for choice/responsibilty as you said.
Yet, God always interfers. Someone wants to hurt you for example. God has given him the choice to do that. Yet, it is up to God if that hurt may touch you or not. If It touched you. It is God who wills, and there is a wisdom behind. If not, then it is God who wills it, and there is a wisdom behind.

So if I am born in Africa, God has willed for me and millions and millions to die of starvation for the last 2000 years. NO THANK YOU
What an unloving theory from such a unconditionally loving God !!!!

It is our short reasoning that unables us to see God's intervention. Do you remember the story I told you. It is God who intervined and let the bullet be in the shop owner's heart. Many things happens daily with us, and we assume it is by chance and coincidence. There is no chance and coincidence. Everything is done according to God's will, everything.Simply because it was what He wanted.

OH MY GOD !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I want to cry

He created man to be on earth, not to stay in heaven. All the life of Adam and Eve in the garden was only a training period for the humanity task on earth..

We go from the womb (1) live on the earth (2) pass on to the eternal spirit world (3)
Our time on earth is to grow our love and our spirit. We need our physical body to do good actions. This is part of growing

You said it, Soleil10: We all go through a growing period..from maturity to childhood. Now, can you answer me please: How can you move by your child safe to maturity if he doesnt depend on you and asks for your help?! Would you oblige him to listen to you?! Would you force him to do what you want?! From here, we find that the wisdom behind creating man spiritually weak is for the benefit of that human being in order to turn to God, asks His help and establish a love relation with Him.

Who created such a theory ? That is so bizarre. Everything in the creation goes through 3 stages. (1) formation (2) Growth (3) Completion.
Nothing in creation comes as a fully complete entity. All things must grow. The culmination of growth is the fulfilment of an entity's purpose.
EX: The tree bears the fruit at completion....it bears the seed of the next generation.
We say that the adult age for human in general is 21 (7,14,21) Adam and Eve fell just at the beginning of the completion stage during adolesence.
Parents know that the teenage years are critical and are very nervous about it. Will my child listen to me and do not make major mistakes before becoming adult and mature.
For Adam and Eve it was not for being born with a sinfull nature. It was part of their growth process. Lucifer was originally their teacher.
There is something wrong with a parent that would wish for a weak and sinful child so he or she is dependant . Actually, the opposite would happen to that parent. He would loose his child.
Dailogue is this your own theory ?
What kind of God would devise such a scheme ?

Of course, God doesnt want at all that His creatures be weak. That's why, He asks them to be very strong in the face of all the temptations. Yet, this weakness is very necessary for a human being to feel his/her need of God, and hence be connected to Him.I hope it is clear now, Soleil10.

God makes you weak but you must be strong. The God you are describing is so manipulating and machiavelic.
This theory originates from an hopeless guilt and false humility.
We become close to God out of love, not out a needy dependancy.
How can a perfect God relate to that ? Dialogue I feel so much clouds over my head when reading this theory. It is kind of hopeless.
I feel like a dog on a leach attached to an insecure God.

It is God's plan from the very beginning, Soleil, to create man to be on earth and to send down Holy Books, and send prophets and messangers..
God's plan is one and the same from the very start untill now. His will is always done, and it cant never be undone.

If our first ancestors had not fell but fulfilled the 3 blessings God gave them, there was no need for religion and for a Messiah.
Adam and Eve were talking with God. They did not need to go through a course of sorrow. Humanity did not have to reverse the fall.

Well, Soleil, I know that what I am saying may seem cruel and harsh.

It is cruel and harsh !!!!

But, let me tell you, brother, that our knowledge is relative...yes, very very relative. We cant hold that we have the whole knowledge. The shop owner who was killed took the sympathy of all those who were present at the time of the accident, but when we came to know the reality, we knew that he himself was very cruel and unjust.
The problem, brother, is that we know just one chapter of the whole story. We dont know everything, hence our judgements are relative

Yes your interpretation is once side of the whole picture. I would not use it to build a theory on God himself.

 

[dailogue is the best]

I would not call it readiness to sin. Everything in God creation go through a period of growth. Adam and Eve too. For this reason God gave them the commandement to compensate for that.

God bless you, soleil. This is exactly what I was saying from the very beginning. Readiness to sin is the same as a period of growth. How?! Well, in a period of growth, it is very necessary for one to undertake the experience of witnessing the right and the wrong, making mistakes and learning from them. Readiness to sin simply means that one is not as pure as angel, and that he/she can make mistakes.

I cannot say small child is weak and sinful since he has not sin yet.As a parent I will give him advice and instruction to compensate for his lack of experience and ask him for his Obedience. I strongly disagree with you because it would be like an insult to God to create Adam and Eve ready for sin.

Excellent, brother. You used the example of a child who is still undertaking formation stage as you said. But, what about the grown ups who still insist on reapeating the same mistakes. Wouldnt you consider the adults who disobey God as weak!!! Wouldnt you!!

Also, look at the expressions you used, brother. You said : "I will give him advive and instruction", you said : "...compensate for his lack of experience", you said:" ask him for obedience". Now can you tell me, soleil: "How would this adult listen to you if he is so strong, and feels need of nothing/nobody, and nothing weak in him?!! Of course, he wouldnt feel need of anyone..he wouldnt feel need of anyone's advice and instruction...he wouldnt feel that he has lack of experinece...he wouldnt feel need of obeying anyone.

Look, brother, man is created with very high intellectual abilities. He ishonoured over all the other creatures. Man is endowed with superior qualities. That's something unquestionable.​

Yet, we cant deny that we are weak, brother. We are in need of air, water, food, medicine, care, friends, families, love… We are weak. We cant stand without a lot of things, brother. Also, our resistance towards temptation is weak…

God created us weak so that we can overcome our weakness to achieve perfection. This perfection cant be achieved without connecting God. If we are not created weak, we would be boastful as many people on whom God bestow good health, wealth and prosperity. Yet, they ignore God. It is unless they pass weakness situation that they come back to God. But, those who experience weakness to God, they are always with him, even though they may live in welfare. The inside feeling and need of God is always in the heart of the true believer.

How sweat it is the feeling of weakness in front of God. Yet, with others, a true believer should always be strong and self determined. Weakness is a relation between believers and their God. A true believer should declare his weakness only between himself/herself and God, asking Him for support, protection and peace..

Before the fall God did not create sinful beings. It is an insane statement.

A Perfect God does not create sinful creatures, Impossible, illogical and irrational. No way baby !!!!

I am sorry, brother. I think that I ve used the wrong term. By using, the term "sinful", I mean "ready to sin" or "able to sin", and not that he has sinned before.

Thus, brother, you have to look deeply to what I said before you give your own judgment.

Angels are created to be pure and obey God in everything He asks them. If man is created perfect the same as angels, then what is the difference between the two?!!

Man is created weak, but he is endowed with knowledge, reason and intellect that angels dont have. Man is created with lusts and desires...created with negative feelings like envy, jealousy, anger, hatred,...Why? Because, as I said before, and I repeat it now, soleil, it is a test for true lovers of God from those who arent? Who are going to attach to God despite all these temptations and feelings? Who is going to educate himself for the sake of God and His love? Who is going to follow His commandments? Who is going to prove his love?...

How easy it is to declare love, but how hard it is to prove it..

When man overcomes his lusts, whims, and resists his negative feelings and educates his soul, then he/she becomes of a status higher than that of the angels.

Do you see the higher status man is given when he choose to follow God's teachings? Do you see the wisdom behind creating man with ability to sin, soleil?

So if I am born in

Africa, God has willed for me and millions and millions to die of starvation for the last 2000 years. NO THANK YOU
What an unloving theory from such a unconditionally loving God !!!!

Then who created Africa, soleil10? It is God, right? Who causes natural disasters? It is God, right?

Can you share with us your opinion then, soleil?

Our time on earth is to grow our love and our spirit. We need our physical body to do good actions. This is part of growing

How can love grow without facing difficulties and challenges. What you are saying here is the same I said above.

For Adam and Eve it was not for being born with a sinful nature. It was part of their growth process. Lucifer was originally their teacher.

I would like to know what does the word "sinful" means to you, soleil. And what do you mean by that Lucifer was their teacher?

We become close to God out of love, not out a needy dependency.

Physically, we need air, water, food, medicine…

Emotionally, we need love, affection, care, support, consolation….

Spiritually, we need wisdom, spirituality, enlightment…..

How can we after all that claim that we are not weak? We are, brother. We are weak and in need of our beloved God.

You said:" needy dependence", Well, brother, what is love? Look at this definition of love : “Love is an incredibly powerful word. When you're in love, you always want to be together, and when you're not, you're thinking about being together because you need that person and without them your life is incomplete” (Sophocles).

So, love in essence is a needy dependency to another one because that other is the one who fills the emptiness inside, because that other who answers to our need, because that other who completes our life and gives it a meaning…

Then, brother, the weakness is a gift to subordinate us with our beloved God...

Note: weakness doesn’t mean inability to resist temptation and challenges. No, soleil. Weakness simply means that one cant stand alone to achieve perfection at all levels.

How can a perfect God relate to that ? Dialogue I feel so much clouds over my head when reading this theory. It is kind of hopeless.

It is just like the darkness which preceedes the sunrise. It just needs more elaboration and examination, soleil.

I feel like a dog on a leach attached to an insecure God.

You are a honorable human being over all creatures because of being endowed with knowledge, reason and logic. You are a honorable creature because God is bestowing on you thousands of gifts. You are honorable creature because without that weakness and dependency to Him, you wouldn’t feel His presence and enjoy His connection.

If our first ancestors had not fell but fulfilled the 3 blessings God gave them, there was no need for religion and for a Messiah.

It is God's plan, brother, from the very start. Nothing interferes to deviate God's plan, nothing at all. God's will is always done. God is not helpless. God is All Powerful..

Adam and Eve were talking with God. They did not need to go through a course of sorrow. Humanity did not have to reverse the fall.

Every following of God's commandments is the same as talking with God and be in connection with him. Following God's commandments clears up all the clouds over your heart to see God and His characteristics.

And every disobeying Of God's commandments is the same as falling from the garden, losing the bliss of connecting God..

Yes your interpretation is once side of the whole picture. I would not use it to build a theory on God himself.

That's why dialogue is the best. Through interaction, we correct our ideas, we correct others' ideas, and we clear up and develop our both ideas. At the end, it is the truth that remains and proves itself….

 

[Marsh]

The concept of being born again is common throughout in Christianity


I would say ultimately God.

The concept of being born again is common, alright. Is the concept of the holy spirit being a feminine spirit common? That was my question.

Wouldn't that make Mary a spiritual lesbian?

 

[soleil10]

The concept of being born again is common, alright. Is the concept of the holy spirit being a feminine spirit common? That was my question.

Yes it is

Wouldn't that make Mary a spiritual lesbian?

How ? The father, The son and The Holy spirit. Jesus is not a woman

 

[Marsh]

How ? The father, The son and The Holy spirit. Jesus is not a woman

Mary became pregnant by the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit is a feminine spirit, and Mary is a female......

 

[soleil10]

Mary became pregnant by the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit is a feminine spirit, and Mary is a female......

Mary became pregnant by Zacharias

You may want to read' The Virgin and the priest". The making of the Messiah, by Mark Gibbs.

You can google it

 

[Will be]

It's called... reincarnation.

 

[soleil10]

It's called... reincarnation.

I have no clue what you are trying to say.

Can you explain ?

 

[Marsh]

Mary became pregnant by Zacharias

You may want to read' The Virgin and the priest". The making of the Messiah, by Mark Gibbs.

You can google it

And you may want to read, 'The Bible." You can google it.

Zacharias was the father of John the Baptist. The Holy Spirit (i.e. God) was and is the father of Jesus.

 

[Quahom1]

And you may want to read, 'The Bible." You can google it.

Zacharias was the father of John the Baptist. The Holy Spirit (i.e. God) was and is the father of Jesus.

Actually you bring up an excellent point. If the Holy Spirit were "feminine", any offspring from Mary would be female. (yes there has been historical and medical evidence of spontaneous conception, resulting always in a female with the exact same mitochondrial DNA, as the mother, in effect-a clone of the parent).

The fact that Jesus was male must lead to one of two conclusions:

Holy Spirit is male in design and that aspect was passed on to the child-
Mary received human male DNA resulting in a male child-

Cannot make a male human with xx chromosones, must have an xy configuration within the DNA helix.

v/r

Q

 

[Basstian]

Many times, we try to find the easiest ways and dodge the difficult jobs. Sometimes we even bargain with heaven, saying, "All right, God, I'll do this if You will give me that."

That is not right since We owe an incredible debt to God yet we never speak about paying back all that we owe Him.

Do you think that if we do not quite have the heart to meet the standard of God but have a repentant heart, God will not criticize us but will be moved and sympathetic with us ?

wow this thread goes all over ))

"We owe an incredible debt to God" ..... for a Christian isnt that what Jesus paid on the cross.

but I really feel your need ... I dont live up to a standard I set for myself how can I measure to God...

I think its best to hold dearly onto the Verse 1 John 1:9

If we confess etc. etc. etc.