Is the Christian God the same as the Muslim God?

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by citizenzen, Mar 2, 2009.

  1. marcoav

    marcoav Purity is the key

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2009
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    0
    And upon you too, my friend.

    :)


    Separative is the limited view of the Spirits immersed in the worlds of form [i.e. the physical world]; only Oneness IS in the worlds of Spirit.

    Thus 'we' are taught:

    God's
    .Will aspect in Creation is manifest in The Father
    .Wisdom aspect in Creation is manifest in The Son
    ..Christ, is The Son: the Solar[Sun] Logos (Logos: Wisdom; a visible effect in civilization: solar calendar adoption)
    .Activity aspect in Creation is manifest in The Holy Spirit
    ..Allah/Jehova is The Holy Spirit: the Lunar Deity, His chief Angel being Gabriel
    ...majority of planets have moons; a visible effect in civilization: lunar calendar adoption based on cycles of the moon phase:
    a.1) "... in your new moons, ye shall blow with the trumpets over your burnt-offerings," Num 10:10;
    a.2) The Islamic calendar is based on visibility of the crescent Moon.
    b) the Islamic and Jewish weekdays begin at sunset, whereas the medieavel Christian and planetary weekdays begin at the following midnight [sun]
    ....Note also that: "The Holy Spirit is the creative energy in Nature, and the sex energy is its reflection in man. Misuse or abuse of that power is the sin that is not forgiven [Matthew 12:31], but must be expiated in impaired efficiency [illness, disease, ...] of the vehicle [the dense physical body: which is the visible instrument we use here in this world to fetch and carry (the body we ordinarily think of as the whole man)] in order thoroughly to teach us the sanctity of the creative force."


    Words of Wisdom have you spoken concerning the subtle dangers of illusion, of "getting things out of focus", in the unseen world. However, being not my intention to deceive and being yet far from becoming a Teacher, please allow to refer your words, dear Abdullah, to the Guidance whom (I) call "O Eu Alado", that is, The Winged Self:


    [​IMG]

    " Our God who art our Winged Self
    It is Thy will in us that willeth
    It is Thy desire in us that desireth
    It is Thy urge in us, that would
    Turn our nights, which are Thine
    Into days, which are Thine also.

    We cannot ask Thee for aught
    For Thou knowest our needs
    Before they are born in us.
    Thou art our need
    And in giving us more of Thyself
    Thou givest all. "
     
  2. Abdullah

    Abdullah Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2006
    Messages:
    743
    Likes Received:
    9

    peace my dear friend,

    And I'm sure it is not... :),

    What you say is verry interesting my dear friend, but where did all of these ideas come from?; the Bible? if it has then how can we put our trust in a Book that is proven to be distorted with it's many contradictions and revisions? and is not the core foundation of faith; God being One, incredibily contradictory too, where it is considered a man and spirit is part of God?; indeed it is thus there is ample proof there itself that the Bible has been interpolated by man-made additions and omissions throughout the centuries...

    God has communicated clear signs to us in His revelations, thus if His core message is that of monothiesm, i.e, that God is one without partners, then common sense and logic tells us that that message should be verry clear indeed, thus it dont make any sense at all to make this the core foundational principle that faith rests on and then to try interpret this monothiesm as 1 in 3 and 3 in 1, where a man and spirit share in it too; this infact occurs to the common sense as the antithesis of monothiesm where parts of the creation is associated with God and then some round about, unsatisfactory logic is applied to it to try to harmonise it; it would occur to one that satan is trying to pull a fast one on humans here :(

    Just imagine my friend that God says to you on the Day of Judgement, 'I commanded you not to associate partners with me but you still insisted on doing so; why was that'?, and you reply, 'but God I never, for Jesus is your son or part of you and so is that holy spirit", and God says, 'whoever told you that that was so', and you say, 'I found it in the Bible' and God says, "well couldn't you see the Bible was full of contradictions and errors and that it had undergone many revisions so why did you put your trust in such a book when you wouldn't do the same with a science book?; now what is more important, learing science or the matter of salvation?, yet you throw your scruples away when it came to the matter of salvation"

    Translations of the Qur'an, Chapter 112: AL-IKHLAS (SINCERITY)

    Total Verses: 4
    Revealed At: MAKKA
    112.001-4 PICKTHAL: Say: He is Allah, the One! Allah, the eternally Besought of all! He begetteth not nor was begotten. And there is none like unto Him.

    peace :)
     
  3. Bandit

    Bandit New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2005
    Messages:
    3,172
    Likes Received:
    0
    exactly. some gods turn into humans and become limited and other gods can never become human or limited to something finite. they are not the same god and they never will be.
     
  4. dailogue is the best

    dailogue is the best New member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    Messages:
    527
    Likes Received:
    1
    I know the question is directed to Netti-Netti, then sorry for putting my "nose" in to answer:D:p

    God in Islam is not unknowable. The Quran is full of God's characteristcs that are sufficient enough to know Him. Also, the prophet Muhammed peace be upon him provide us with God's ninety nine names of God that if one study each one very deep, then he will taste the sweet of pure monothesism.

    Ar-Rahman (الرحمن)
    The Beneficent

    2
    Ar-Rahim (الرحيم)
    The Merciful

    4
    Al-Quddus (القدوس)
    The Holy

    5
    As-Salaam (السلام)
    The Source of Peace

    6
    Al-Mu’min (المؤمن)
    The Guardian of Faith

    7
    Al-Muhaymin (المهيمن)
    The Protector

    8
    Al-Aziz (العزيز)
    The Mighty

    9
    Al-Jabbar (الجبار)
    The Compeller

    10
    Al-Mutakabbir (المتكبر)
    The Majestic

    11
    Al-Khaaliq (الخالق)
    The Creator

    12
    Al-Bari’ (البارئ)
    The Evolver

    13
    Al-Musawwir (المصور)
    The Fashioner

    14
    Al-Ghaffaar (الغفار)
    The Forgiver

    15
    Al-Qahhaar (القهار)
    The Subduer

    16
    Al-Wahhaab (الوهاب)
    The Bestower

    17
    Ar-Razzaaq (الرزاق)
    The Provider

    18
    Al-Fattaah (الفتاح)
    The Opener

    19
    Al-`Aleem (العليم)
    The All-Knowing

    20
    Al-Qaabid (القابض)
    The Constrictor
    Step2
    21
    Al-Baasit (الباسط)
    The Expander

    22
    Al-Khaafid (الخافض)
    The Abaser

    23
    Ar-Raafi’e (الرافع)
    The Exalter

    24
    Al-Mu’izz (المعز)
    The Honourer

    25
    Al-Muzill (المذل)
    The Dishonourer

    26
    As-Sami’ (السميع)
    The All Hearer

    27
    Al-Basir (البصير)
    The All-Seeing

    28
    Al-Hakam (الحكم)
    The Judge

    29
    Al-`Adl (العدل)
    The Just

    30
    Al-Lateef (اللطيف)
    The Subtle One

    31
    Al-Khabir (الخبير)
    The Aware

    32
    Al-Halim (الحليم)
    The Forbearing One

    33
    Al-Azeem (العظيم)
    The Great One

    34
    Al-Ghafoor (الغفور)
    The All-Forgiving

    35
    Ash-Shakur (الشكور)
    The Appreciative

    36
    Al-Ali (العلي)
    The Most High

    37
    Al-Kabeer (الكبير)
    The Most Great

    38
    Al-Hafeez (الحفيظ)
    The Preserver

    39
    Al-Muqeet (المقيت)
    The Maintainer

    40
    Al-Hasib (الحسيب)
    The Reckoner
    Step3
    41
    Al-Jalil (الجليل)
    The Sublime One

    42
    Al-Kareem (الكريم)
    The Generous One

    43
    Ar-Riqeeb (الرقيب)
    The Watchful

    44
    Al-Mujeeb (المجيب)
    The Responsive

    45
    Al-Wasse’e (الواسع)
    The All-Embracing

    46
    Al-Hakeem (الحكيم)
    The Wise

    47
    Al-Wadood (الودود)
    The Loving, The Kind One

    48
    Al-Majeed (المجيد)
    The All Glorious

    49
    Al-Ba’ith (الباعث)
    The Resurrector

    50
    Ash-Shaheed (الشهيد)
    The Witness

    51
    Al-Haqq (الحق)
    The Truth

    52
    Al-Wakeel (الوكيل)
    The Trustee

    53
    Al-Qawai (القوى)
    The Most Strong

    54
    Al-Mateen (المتين)
    The Firm One

    55
    Al-Walai (الولى)
    The Protecting Friend, Patron and Helper

    56
    Al-Hamid (الحميد)
    The Praiseworthy

    57
    Al-Muhsi (المحصى)
    The Reckoner

    58
    Al-Mubdi’ (المبدئ)
    The Originator

    59
    Al-Mu’id (المعيد)
    The Restorer

    60
    Al-Muhyee (المحيى)
    The Giver of Life
    Step4
    61
    Al-Mumeet (المميت)
    The Creator of Death

    62
    Al-Hai (الحي)
    The Alive

    63
    Al-Qaiyyum (القيوم)
    The Self Subsisting

    64
    Al-Waajid (الواجد)
    The Finder

    65
    Al-Maajid (الماجد)
    The Noble

    66
    Al-Waahid (الواحد)
    The Unique One

    67
    Al-Ahad (الاحد)
    The Absolute One

    68
    As-Samad (الصمد)
    The Eternal and Besought

    69
    Al-Qaadir (القادر)
    The Able

    70
    Al-Muqtadir (المقتدر)
    The Powerful

    71
    Al-Muqaaddim (المقدم)
    The Expeditor

    72
    Al-Mu’akhir (المؤخر)
    The Delayer

    73
    Al-Awwal (الأول)
    The First

    74
    Al-Akhir (الأخر)
    The Last

    75
    Az-Zaahir (الظاهر)
    The Manifest

    76
    Al-Baatin (الباطن)
    The Hidden

    77
    Al-Waali (الوالي)
    The Governor

    78
    Al-Muta’aali (المتعالي)
    The Most Exalted

    79
    Al-Barr (البر)
    The Source of All Goodness

    80
    At-Tawwaab (التواب)
    The Acceptor of Repentance
    Step5
    [​IMG] 99 NAMES 81
    Al-Muntaqim (المنتقم)
    The Avenger

    82
    Al-’Afu (العفو)
    The Pardoner

    83
    Ar-Ra’uf (الرؤوف)
    The Compassionate

    84
    Malik-al-Mulk (مالك الملك)
    The External Owner of Sovereignty

    85
    Dhu-al-Jalali wa-al-Ikram (ذو الجلال و الإكرام)
    The Lord of Majesty and Bounty

    86
    Al-Muqsit (المقسط)
    The Equitable

    87
    Al-Jaami’ (الجامع)
    The Gatherer

    88
    Al-Ghani (الغنى)
    The Self-Sufficient

    89
    Al-Mughni (المغنى)
    The Enricher

    90
    Al-Maani’ (المانع)
    The Preventer

    91
    Ad-Darr (الضار)
    The Distresser

    92
    An-Nafi’ (النافع)
    The Propitious

    93
    An-Nur (النور)
    The Light

    94
    Al-Haadi (الهادي)
    The Guide

    95
    Al-Baadi’ (البديع)
    The Incomparable

    96
    Al-Baaqi (الباقي)
    The Everlasting

    97
    Al-Waarith (الوارث)
    The Supreme Inheritor

    98
    Ar-Rashid (الرشيد)
    The Guide to the right path

    99
    As-Sabur (الصبور)
    The Patient
     
  5. Marsh

    Marsh Disagreeable By Nature

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2004
    Messages:
    577
    Likes Received:
    0

    Fair enough, and quite an interesting post. Someone else on this thread (I think it's this thread) who is a Muslim asserted that according to Islam God is unknowable, so I just assumed that it was so.
     
  6. nativeastral

    nativeastral fluffy future

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2008
    Messages:
    1,525
    Likes Received:
    0
    such a lovely image. are not 99 names and the trinity analogous? must we totally deny any association with the divine? it is a personal relationship right? instead of flinging 'satan' at one another surely the core is to evolve lovingly, spiritually, gifts endowed to be developed imagio dei?:rolleyes:
     
  7. dailogue is the best

    dailogue is the best New member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    Messages:
    527
    Likes Received:
    1



    [112:0] In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
    [112:1] Proclaim, "He is the One and only GOD.
    [112:2] "The Absolute GOD.
    [112:3] "Never did He beget. Nor was He begotten.
    <A name=4>[112:4] "None equals Him."

    Hence to say that God is unkownable in Islam is meant to be in the pysical side. God as an etity is unkownable.

    Yet, the Quran makes it clear that a sincere, deep relation with God cant really start unless you fully know the characteristics of God. Hence, one's heart submits with great love to God, believing that it is only God who really enjoys the best attributes, and by connecting Him, one takes some of His attributes. One cant connect a rich person, and not becoming rich. One cant connect a wise man, and not becoming wise. One cant connect a strong person, and not feeling of security and strenght. Then, how about connecting God who enjoys the best Names and attributes.


    [4:27] GOD wishes to redeem you, while those who pursue their lusts wish that you deviate a great deviation. [4:28] GOD wishes to lighten your burden, for the human being is created weak.
     
  8. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Messages:
    9,437
    Likes Received:
    3
    I thought my mouse was stuck and I had that image on constant highlight... It's meant to look like that? Someone needs to tinker with the levels...
     
  9. Netti-Netti

    Netti-Netti New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2008
    Messages:
    2,571
    Likes Received:
    0
    According to al-Ghazali, G-d's attributes (sifat Allah) are "different from, yet added to, G-d's essence." The 99 Beautiful Names do not describe the absolute, impersonal Divine essence (dhât Allah) and do not define G-d's nature.

    The attributes they are referring to could be considered manifestations of Divine Essence in the form of operations with respect to ascending mortals. These attributes could be considered be relational qualities in the sense that they describe qualities of G-d's relationship to His Creation.

    The Wiki page says "hadith does not say that there are only 99 names, but 99 names that are better than the others." There could be a thousand names. These are just words we use to think with.

    G-d's essential nature or "Cosmic Essence" is incomprensible and will remain forever unknown to mortal beings When someone says they know Allah as "an Infinite Whole," I think they are stating an abstract belief. Because we are finite, created beings, we are necessarily fragmentary and our understanding of Divine Reality is also fragmentary and incomplete.

    G-d is not accessible to us as sensory experience or observation. This is why G-d will always be different from what we imagine Him to be.
     
  10. citizenzen

    citizenzen Custom User Title

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2008
    Messages:
    3,231
    Likes Received:
    2
    Hey there! Citizenzen, professional graphic designer here with a special tip just for you kids!

    When scanning a previously printed image, the dot pattern of the scanner and the printed image can interfere with each other and cause a moiré pattern.

    Moiré pattern - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Sometimes this pattern may be ameliorated by rotating the image approximately 20º on the scanner, or by applying a Gaussian Blur in Photoshop. But in almost all cases the image will retain the visible trace of the pattern.

    You kids be careful with those digital images. This is serious business. Somebody could get hurt.
     
  11. dailogue is the best

    dailogue is the best New member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    Messages:
    527
    Likes Received:
    1
    I agree Netti-Netti..

    Actually, the essence of religion, any religion, is to know who you are to worship. Knowledge is all in all because once you know God, one's love grow to Him, and hence connecting him, following His commandments, and seeking His pleasure becomes a pleasure in itself as one always does his/her best to satisfy his/her beloved.

    In other words, love comes with knowledge, then loyality, sincerity and faithfulness come with love.

    As a Muslim, I used to state the 99 beautiful names of God without looking deeply at what they mean. It is till I watched him on TV. He is a very modest Muslim scholar. With his very low, sweet voice, and with his use of both logic and emtion to analyze, he attracted my attention. He said that the 99 names of God are not to be counted superficially. The counting of these names is to know truly and fully what each name means, and how a believer should apply those attributes to get near and close God. There is clear saying from the prophet Muhammed peace be upon him that we should have the morals of God.

    I am very grateful to this scholar who really managed to help me to get near God by knowing his attributes very deeply and follow them in my daily life. He clears my heart from being attached to anything/anybody in this life as God has everything/everyone. It is only one direction that a Muslim's heart must follow: Allah. If Allah is with you, then who can be against you. If you find Allah, then you have found everything. But, if you dont find Allah, then what have you found?!

    Here are some explanation of some of God's beautiful names from my favourite scholar: Mohammed Rateb Al Nabulsi. Just click one any name, and you get the full meaning of it:
    names of Allah
     
  12. Netti-Netti

    Netti-Netti New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2008
    Messages:
    2,571
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi,
    I'm not sure how we reconcile this to what we find in the Abrahamic traditions: they deny that G-d is knowable.

    Another way to describe this: harmonizing with the indwelling spirit.

    I would say that love is an expression of the indwelling spirit.

    This makes sense to me given that the 99 names of God can be seen as relational qualities as well as goals for our own development in becoming more G-dlike. I wonder if it would be more accurate to say that we are approximating the directives of the indwelling spirit rather than actually becoming "G-dlike." If G-d is unknowable, it follows that we have no real understanding of what it is to become "G-dlike."

    G-d's morals would be the standards He holds us to. Good and Evil are not an issue for G-d. They are an issue only for us.

    I think He may have found you. :)
     
  13. dailogue is the best

    dailogue is the best New member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    Messages:
    527
    Likes Received:
    1
    Peace be upon you, Netti-Netti

    Actually, to say that God is unknowable in the Quran is not very true unless it is meant in the physical aspect.

    Through mediating into the universe, one feels there is a great Creator for all these. Hence, in order to know who is this creator, God sent prophets and messangers, and sent down Holy Books. What is the purpose of these Holy Books? Simply, to know Him. Hence, how can we still insist that God is still unkowable.

    As a Muslim, The Quran for me is a love letter sent to His believers and His servants who want to establish a love realtion with Him. A love relation can never ever be established with lack of knowledge of the characteristics of the beloved. That's why, I cant hold that God is unkowable unless, as I said, it is meant in the physical aspect.

    Simply, by following the morals we know about Him. As a Muslim, there is a clear Quranic verse which says that there is God's breath in man's creation. Hence, this breath inside all of us,which is God's breath, wont be alive unless we educate our souls and follwing God's morals.

    Clear enough, Netti-Netti. That's why God is perfect and complete, and we arent. And that's why, we cant achieve that goal unless we depend on Him, ask His help, and surrender to His teachings..

    It is the enquiery of my life, Netti-Netti. God bless you. :)
     
  14. Netti-Netti

    Netti-Netti New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2008
    Messages:
    2,571
    Likes Received:
    0
    You too, brother Dailogue.

    I agree we can know His will through Revelation. That's different from knowing G-d in His totality.

    Our relation to the Creator is one of dependence. We are totally dependent on G-d for our existence. Religious practice does not in any way affect this fundamental fact. Potentially, religious practice can alter our knowledge and understanding of Divine will. This process seems to involve a shift from abstract mentalistic knowing (aql) to an activation of the spiritual heart (qalb).

    What changes with this shift? Not the fact of G-d dependence. Rather, there is an increased self knowledge as a result of seeking "means of nearness to Him." (Koran 5.35). This is a manner of speaking, of course, because after all, as the Koran says, G-d is "with you wherever you are" (57:4) and "everywhere you turn, there is G-d's face. (He is everywhere and is all-embracing)." (2:115)

    I agree here. I believe practicing virtues is in effect a form of illumination. But what is being illuminated? G-d's character or the quality of the relationships that are open to the Divine Presence?


    The shift from mentalistic knowing to activated spiritual heart is a transformed awareness of religious duties through the call of conscience. It is hearing a call to righteousness: "When My servants ask thee concerning Me, I am indeed close (to them): I listen to the prayer of every person who calls for Me: Let them also, with a will, listen to My call, and believe in Me: That they may walk in the right way." (Koran 2.186).
     
  15. dailogue is the best

    dailogue is the best New member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    Messages:
    527
    Likes Received:
    1
    I agree..

    Also, we can compare this to the three status a true believer switch between: the status of "fear', the status of "hope" and the status of "love"..When a beiever is in an abstarct mentalistic knowing, the status of "fear" is present, but when the spiritual heart is activated, the believer becomes in the status of "hope" and "love"..

    I see that both are the same. We cant depend fully on God unless there is an extensive self knowledge resulted from seeking His nearness.

    The second one..


    I agree, Netti-Netti. How come you have that big knowledge of the Quranic verses?! (just curious:confused:)

    Peace:)
     
  16. Will be

    Will be New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2009
    Messages:
    157
    Likes Received:
    0
    Is the God, or gods of man, or woman, the same God, or gods of animals, plants, nature?

    Don't tell me, tell nature.
     
  17. Abdullah

    Abdullah Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2006
    Messages:
    743
    Likes Received:
    9
    Hi native :),

    The Mutazillah's [a sect that died out in the earlier days of Islam] argued that God had no attributes seperate from His essence, but rather they all emanated from it, i.e, God knew from His essence, willed from His essence, etc, in other words, God was the omniscient without the attribute of knowledge and He 'willed' without the attribute of Will added to His essence, etc [this led the Sunni Scholars to accuse the Mutazillah of 'denying Gods attributes' and to charge them with heresy]; The Mutazilla had adopted that position in concern to the Sunni position which they thought was more simmilar to the Christian doctrine of the trinity, and thus more closer to polythiesm than monothiesm;

    the Sunni's responded with a suprarational attempt at avoiding the polythiesm with which they were accused, by saying that Gods attributes were neither part of Gods essence, nor were they not part of it [I think that this may mean, we do not consider it to be part of Gods essence, nor not part of it and we leave it to God as to how His attributes are, but one thing for sure is that they are not 'parts' of God for God absolutely is unique, thus He is far above the 'parts' concept which could occur to the human mind]


    Peace :)
     
  18. Abdullah

    Abdullah Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2006
    Messages:
    743
    Likes Received:
    9
    The above paraphrasing troubles me a bit so I'll rephrase it to a more acurate one:

    Gods attributes are in addition to Gods essence, in such a way that they niether are Gods essence, nor are they anything but Gods essence
     
  19. spiritual learner

    spiritual learner New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2009
    Messages:
    21
    Likes Received:
    0
    We can not use the opinion of other people as the sole basis for what we believe or what is in fact true. so it doesn't matter if people with prejudicial attitudes do Not think that the One God is the same for all people.

    also, sharing my own personal experience....at work sometimes my coworkers mix up my name and call me by another. As we get older we sometimes even forget the names of those we love, respect and are close to. However, the connection of heart is there, so no offense is taken. The connection of heart is most important. If people really know who I am, if we have a relationship, this is the important thing. could God feel the same?
     

Share This Page