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Vassal
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This thread is a response to the multiple threads created by NickA on this issue,
and the ideas of "objectivism" on which he has founded his principle argument.
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@ NickA + SeattleGal
This isn't about sex-ed classes for the youth... and this isn't about "esoteric Christianity" either. Nick, your real foundation, is not in Simone Weil, or Plato, or Jesus (pbuh)... it is actually in Ayn Rand, the psudeo (pop) philosopher who is responsible for formalizing "Objectivism," a position which claims the right of man to define his own morality.
Nick said:
"Evil" is a term defined by an objective dictate that man is not capable of formulating himself. It is a logical fallacy (which Immanuel Kant proved) for you (and Ayn Rand) to claim that man can arrive at this objectivity himself. And this is exactly why Rand was never taken seriously to begin with. "Evil" can only be defined by an objective judgment, and according to the only objective source of morality i.e. God: porn, is evil.
SG said:
Did these hormones just appear overnight? Are you saying that Moses (pbuh), Jesus (pbuh) and Mohammed (pbuh) were not confronted by these same societal problems in their times???? Take a look at the historical records of societies into which each of these prophets of God were born and their utter debasement, especially with regards to sexual liberty. Egyptian worship of sexuality, pre-Islamic Arabia, and the harlots in Jerusalem can attest to the strength of the "hormones" of these societies.
Sexuality is not to be denied (true), but regulated according to the moral dictates of God. What you both are suggesting is that we re-formulate those dictates in light of our modern needs. But what you are forgetting is that there is nothing "modern" about these basic human instincts. They were always there, and they were the ones responsible for the downfall of man EVERY SINGLE TIME in the past.
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From a philosophic point of view: the reason why the Police were involved is because a nude picture of a 15 year old is technically CHILD PORNOGRAPHY! It does NOT matter who took the picture. If that picture ended up on the internet and in the hands of a 40 year old child molester, would it only be considered pornographic then?!! No!! You know why? Because THAT WOULD BE MORAL RELATIVISM! (the foundation of utilitarianism) And that is what this "inner objective morality" actually is, a wolf in sheep's clothing. Philosophically speaking, it is just subjective morality, posing as objectivity. This is why Rand and her "objectivism" was always rejected as pop-philosophy in academic circles, not just because it is amoral, but because it is based on a logical fallacy which is proven by Kant (who Rand, naturally, hated).
From a religious point of view: the case is even more clear cut. Pornographic images sent by a 15 year old to her boyfriend are EVIL simply because according to God's morality, such an act should NOT be taking place. You can't just change the concept of "good" and "evil" because it is inconvenient. And that is actually what you Nick, are suggesting. So this is why, religiously speaking: you are the one who is advocating "political correctness." And if society starts walking down this road, pretty soon, there will be NO MORALITY and society will be ready to tear itself apart, and we will be back to the times when those Prophets were sent... only this time, we no one is coming to clean up our mess.
This is all a moot point anyway... because those like Nick,
have already won. Societal standards are non-existent really,
all the lip-service that society does to real objectivity is about
to fall apart and be thrown in the back-burner anyway...
So rejoice Nick, because philosophically, you are not part of
the minority... you are, in fact, the personification of the majority.
But still, this does not change the answer we should be giving to kids: we should NOT confuse them even more by throwing away an actual objective standard of morality and replacing it with a subjective "objectivism." If you think that would make the suicide rates go down then go and take a look at the suicide statistics of Japan, and you will find your answer (they are the highest in the world, probably the highest in human history).
and the ideas of "objectivism" on which he has founded his principle argument.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
@ NickA + SeattleGal
This isn't about sex-ed classes for the youth... and this isn't about "esoteric Christianity" either. Nick, your real foundation, is not in Simone Weil, or Plato, or Jesus (pbuh)... it is actually in Ayn Rand, the psudeo (pop) philosopher who is responsible for formalizing "Objectivism," a position which claims the right of man to define his own morality.
Nick said:
No... Porn is evil.Porn is considered evil.
"Evil" is a term defined by an objective dictate that man is not capable of formulating himself. It is a logical fallacy (which Immanuel Kant proved) for you (and Ayn Rand) to claim that man can arrive at this objectivity himself. And this is exactly why Rand was never taken seriously to begin with. "Evil" can only be defined by an objective judgment, and according to the only objective source of morality i.e. God: porn, is evil.
SG said:
This is an invalid argument.The old ways no longer fit today's situation, and the children are all too often left to fend for themselves when confronted by their hormones.
Did these hormones just appear overnight? Are you saying that Moses (pbuh), Jesus (pbuh) and Mohammed (pbuh) were not confronted by these same societal problems in their times???? Take a look at the historical records of societies into which each of these prophets of God were born and their utter debasement, especially with regards to sexual liberty. Egyptian worship of sexuality, pre-Islamic Arabia, and the harlots in Jerusalem can attest to the strength of the "hormones" of these societies.
Sexuality is not to be denied (true), but regulated according to the moral dictates of God. What you both are suggesting is that we re-formulate those dictates in light of our modern needs. But what you are forgetting is that there is nothing "modern" about these basic human instincts. They were always there, and they were the ones responsible for the downfall of man EVERY SINGLE TIME in the past.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From a philosophic point of view: the reason why the Police were involved is because a nude picture of a 15 year old is technically CHILD PORNOGRAPHY! It does NOT matter who took the picture. If that picture ended up on the internet and in the hands of a 40 year old child molester, would it only be considered pornographic then?!! No!! You know why? Because THAT WOULD BE MORAL RELATIVISM! (the foundation of utilitarianism) And that is what this "inner objective morality" actually is, a wolf in sheep's clothing. Philosophically speaking, it is just subjective morality, posing as objectivity. This is why Rand and her "objectivism" was always rejected as pop-philosophy in academic circles, not just because it is amoral, but because it is based on a logical fallacy which is proven by Kant (who Rand, naturally, hated).
From a religious point of view: the case is even more clear cut. Pornographic images sent by a 15 year old to her boyfriend are EVIL simply because according to God's morality, such an act should NOT be taking place. You can't just change the concept of "good" and "evil" because it is inconvenient. And that is actually what you Nick, are suggesting. So this is why, religiously speaking: you are the one who is advocating "political correctness." And if society starts walking down this road, pretty soon, there will be NO MORALITY and society will be ready to tear itself apart, and we will be back to the times when those Prophets were sent... only this time, we no one is coming to clean up our mess.
This is all a moot point anyway... because those like Nick,
have already won. Societal standards are non-existent really,
all the lip-service that society does to real objectivity is about
to fall apart and be thrown in the back-burner anyway...
So rejoice Nick, because philosophically, you are not part of
the minority... you are, in fact, the personification of the majority.
But still, this does not change the answer we should be giving to kids: we should NOT confuse them even more by throwing away an actual objective standard of morality and replacing it with a subjective "objectivism." If you think that would make the suicide rates go down then go and take a look at the suicide statistics of Japan, and you will find your answer (they are the highest in the world, probably the highest in human history).