God's Plan

Discussion in 'Christianity' started by Azure24, Mar 10, 2009.

  1. Will be

    Will be Well-Known Member

    Apr 3, 2009
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    Let there be light!

    And there is, already, it's day, and the desire was already met, a long, long time ago, around 7 am.
  2. Azure24

    Azure24 Well-Known Member

    Jul 5, 2006
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    I've had enough of this. Time to put this to bed...

    God is fully aware that His sheep are now lost:

    "My people hath been lost sheep ... " (Jer. 50:6).

    soleil, learn something about analogies. Why does God Himself use the analogy of "sheep" to represent lost mankind? Because we have the same number of feet? God uses the analogy of "sheep" because sheep are totally unable to save themselves. They need a shepherd.

    And get this...Christ is suppossed
    to be our Saviour. You know... A Saviour is one thats saves:rolleyes:.

    We are "saved in grace through FAITH..." (Eph. 2:8), but even THAT FAITH is not our own until God GIVES IT TO US! Notice Rom. 12:4, "God IMPARTS to each the measure of FAITH." AFTER God gives us HIS faith, then it becomes OURS! Pretty simple, huh?
    Did Paul suddenly "see the error of his ways" on the road to Demascus, or did God MAKE HIM repent in an instant of blinding light? Did the King of Babylon "choose" to become a beast in the field for seven years in order to "BREAK" his own carnal will, or did God FORCE HIM TO DO SO? I have heard ignorant ministers and theologians repeat like a broken record as if it were a Scripture, that: "God will NEVER MAKE a person do anything against his OWN WILL"! Oh really? And what Bible do you suppose they are reading? "God is operating ALL according to counsel of His OWN WILL" (Eph. 1:11)!!

    And you failed to acknowledge I Cor. 12:3 with reference to Phil. 2:9-11. It is worst than error to try and compare God's ability to accomplish a task as compared to a man's ability to accomplish a task. "...no man CAN say that Jesus is the Lord, but BY THE HOLY SPIRIT." Besides, God did not send His Son to "offer" salvation to the world, but "To BE the Saviour of the world." To "be" a Saviour one MUST SAVE. To be the Saviour of the whole "WORLD," one must SAVE THE WHOLE WORLD!! This is axiomatic.
    Does Jesus truly "...TAKE WAY the sin of the WORLD" (John 1:29), "And He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours ONLY, but also for the SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD" (I John 2:2), but then TORTURE most of the "whole world" for all eternity AFTER He takes away ALL OF THEIR SINS?
    Your arguments are not with me or with my writings, soleil. I write with the SCRIPTURES. Your arguments are with the Word of God, not with me.

    You are yet to show me even ONE scripture on this...

    Jesus is not concerned with the flesh!! One cannot remove sin unless he is saved Spiritually!!!

    "God [is] SPIRIT" (John 4:24).

    "…the Words that I speak unto you are SPIRIT…" (John 6:63).

    "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the SPIRIT which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

    But the natural man [still being carnal-minded] receives not the things of the SPIRIT of God: neither CAN HE know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (I Cor. 2:12-14).

    Clearly, the natural mind of man unaided by the Spirit of God, is not "free" to receive "the things of the Spirit of God, neither CAN HE KNOW THEM…"

    "Because the carnal mind is enmity [hatred] against God: for it is NOT subject to the [spiritual] law of God, neither indeed CAN BE" (Rom. 8:7).

    The Spiritual is far FAR Superior than the physical...Even children know this...
  3. Azure24

    Azure24 Well-Known Member

    Jul 5, 2006
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    No. God did!!

    Where in the Bible does it mention this show me, unless I will no longer post...


    "For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them ALL in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon ALL. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things" (Rom. 11:30-39)

    And what else?? Bring peace?? Our you blind??

    "Think not that I [Jesus] am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." (Matt. 10:34)

    Jesus lacked faith?!!?? Is this a joke???

    Overreacting?!? No soleil...Reading what you write has made me lost for words...

    As for my response to YOUR "so called" "three blessings"...

    A) The first steps to God's plan...

    B) I've answered this already (I will not post this again). Instead I will post a shorter version...

    Eve sinned well BEFORE she ever ate the fruit!!! In the carnal Ten commandments it says "Thou sahlt not commit adultery".

    In other words a carnal man thinks Eve sinned when she ACTUALLY commited the act...You know ACTUALLY ate the fruit!!!

    Therefore one could lust after another man's wife all day long, as long as he didn't commit the ACT (adultery)!!!

    Eve could lust after the fruit as long as she didn't eat it!!!

    However, when Christ same He rasied the bar!!!

    "But I say unto you, That whosoever looks on a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her ALREADY in his heart" (Matt. 5:28).

    So...soleil according to the spiritually converted When Eve lusted about eating the fruit [read Gen. she does all the things of the evil heart] ....You know before she ate it. She ALREADY commited a sin!!!

    Let me give another example. In the Ten commanments it say:

    "Love thy neighbour"

    Yes, that's right soleil...One should love thy neighbour, but he could HATE his enemies!!!

    Read I Kings Chapter 2. King David's dying words to his son where: "Get those ... and make it bloody."

    David did NOT forgive his enemies. He HATED THEM. He wanted them "taken care of" AFTER his death.

    Yes, David had faith, and he had God's spirit "WITH HIM" but he was not spiritually converted. The spirit was not given until Pentecost.

    Enter Christ!!!

    "But I say unto you, LOVE YOUR ENEMIES, BLESS them that curse you, DO GOOD to them that hate you, and PRAY for those which despitefully use you, and persecute you [WHY?]; that you may be the SONS OF YOUR FATHER which is in heaven" (Matt. 5:44-45).

    You need to learn...

    C) God knew what He was doing before the "age" but in you're case "world" (read previous posts with mee).


    "According as he hath chosen us in him BEFORE the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" (Eph. 1:4)

    "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus BEFORE the world began" (II Tim. 1:9)

    "In hope of eternal [age-abiding] life, which God, that cannot lie, promised BEFORE the world began" (Tit. 1:2)

    Considering you haven't quoted not even ONE verse of Scripture....Yep. Sounds like heresy to me...

    I will not post again...Until you come up with a more MATURE dicussion...
  4. Azure24

    Azure24 Well-Known Member

    Jul 5, 2006
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    I just needed to post this...

    You said Jesus was not meant to die??

    Foreknowledge CONTRADICTS "free will" and Jesus KNEW He was going to die. Is this Scriptual?? You bet it is!!

    "From that time began Jesus to shew to his disciples that it is NECESSARY for him to go away to Jerusalem, and to suffer many things from the elders, and chief priests, and scribes, and to be put to death, and the third day to rise." (Matt. 16:21)

    All this was said BEFORE any of it happened!!!

    Sorry Quahom1...Looks like this discussion is over...
  5. soleil10

    soleil10 Well-Known Member

    Dec 8, 2008
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    Azure "From that time Jesus began" clearly shows that Jesus changed course. For about 2 years, he proclaimed the Kingdom is at hand but due the rejection and persecution he received, due to the lack of support from his onw family and especially the lack of support from John the Baptist who ended up going his separate way, Jesus went the way of the cross. His own disciples were shocked and had a hard time to understand such a sudden change.
  6. Azure24

    Azure24 Well-Known Member

    Jul 5, 2006
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    I can't have a discussion with you soleil...You simply do not understand.

    It is only through much trial and tribulation that we enter the Kingdom of God.

    "For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation
    perfect through sufferings."

    Jesus has NEVER changed course...

    "Jesus Christ the SAME yesterday, and to day, and for ever." (Heb.13:8)

    There was no sudden change. They were just not ready to hear...

    As Jesus told them what was going to happen. Peter's reply was similar to yours...

    "Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee."

    Because Jesus was not meant to go through this... right?? Wrong!

    "But he [Jesus] turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men."

    Those words Peter used were not his own but rather the words of Satan himself...
  7. soleil10

    soleil10 Well-Known Member

    Dec 8, 2008
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    Being force to change plan or adapting to a situation does not mean someone is a different person, has different beliefs, a different character or a different goal. God's providence to bring back his children has been delayed over and over. It does not mean that God has changed.
    Set back and delays due to man's like of faith causes more suffering and pain. God does not wishes his children to suffer unnecessarily. It took 40 years for the Israelites to cross a small desert and enter Canaan because of their lack of faith. It was a small piece of land

    All the facts and events show that Jesus had to change course because of the rejection he received especially for those in authority and those that God pepared to receive him. Once Jesus changed course, Peter needed to change too otherwise, he was doing Satan's will.

    Yes at that point these were the words of Satan. This does not mean that before Jesus changing his course, he wanted to initiate Gods' Kingdom on earth during his lifetime and avoid the course of the cross

    Azure, you may poo poo the 3 blessings God gave to A&E but these are the blue print of what God wanted and want for his children to achieve. They are scriptural

    The whole rest of the bible after the fall in Genesis is based on fulfilling these 3 blessings. This is what Jesus came for and will return for
  8. Azure24

    Azure24 Well-Known Member

    Jul 5, 2006
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    soleil, perhaps this is too difficult for you to understand. Do you know why Jesus taught the multitude in parables only??

    Have you read your Bible in the last few years?? Have you never read the prophecy of Isaiah??

    "Yet it PLEASED the LORD to BRUISE him [Jesus] ; He [God] hath put him [Jesus] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand." (Isa. 53:10)

    Again why did Jesus dpeak to the multitude in parables?? What did Jesus say to the Pharisees...?? Last time I checked he called them hyprocites, snakes, blind guides....Alot of people think Jesus was this lovey dovey sought of person...Read the gospels...

    They're scriptual are they?? Show where it mentions three blessing being a blue print, please...

    Do you want to know what the whole Bible is about?? Why didn't you ask.

    I have a stupid question to ask you soleil.

    Was Jesus good??
  9. soleil10

    soleil10 Well-Known Member

    Dec 8, 2008
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    Isaiah 53 predicts the Messiah's rejection, suffering and death ?
    There are also verses in the Bible which prophesy that the Messiah will come and be received as the Son of God and the King of Kings and bring about the Kingdom of Heaven in earth. These prophecies appear in Isaiah 9,11, and 60 and also in Luke 1:31-33
    Here again, it is God's responsibility to send the Messaih, but it is man' s responsibility to believe in him
    When Jesus was ask to read scriptures in the synagogue, he read Isaiah 60. He did not read Isaiah 53. He clearly wanted to be received as the Lord of Glory and not the Lord of suffering.

    I do not know what is your point here

    The whole bible is about fulfilling these 3 blessings

    1. The First Blessing (become mature/fruitful)
    God's First Blessing is man's ability to perfect his character. By having a proper relationship between his mind and body and uniting them centered on God, he becomes the temple of God (1 Cor 3:16). When such perfected individual become completely one with God in Heart (John 14:20), he comes to have God's character and constantly have God at the center of his thoughts and actions.

    When a person achieves God's First Blessing, he will naturally share God's feelings as his own. Thus, it would be absolutely impossible for such a person to commit a crime, for by doing so he would feel the same grief that he would cause God.
    Such a person would only want to be a perfect object to God. When a person accomplishes individual perfection, he becomes the complete object of God's Heart and satisfies God's impulse to love. In other words, if man had fulfilled the First Blessing, he would have become the object of Heart which God desires to love. Then he would have been the fruit of God's vertical love.

    2. The Second Blessing (multiply)
    God's Second Blessing is man's ability to have an ideal family. Adam and Eve were to attain individual perfection and then become husband and wife and give birth to children with natures of goodness, forming a sinless family. This God-centered family would have fulfilled God's Second Blessing.
    By becoming husband and wife on the foundation of having perfected themselves through God's vertical love, Adam and Eve would have completely realized God's horizontal love. From the viewpoint of Heart, the fact that God allowed man to have children upon having fulfilled God's horizontal love is a great blessing, for by having children man can feel the vertical love that God feels toward man.

    The family is the basic foundation for God's vertical and horizontal love and the perfect object of God's Heart. With the first Godly family as a base, a true society, true nation, and true world would have been realized. This is God's Will. If Adam and Eve had created such a family and world, it would have been the Kingdom of Heaven on earth.

    3. The Third Blessing
    The Third blessing that God gave man is the right of dominion over the whole Creation. In order for God to feel joy, man, as object of His Heart, should always experience joy in his life. Therefore, God created all things to be objects for man's joy so that man could always feel joy.

    Before creating man, God made all things in accordance with the image (or pattern) of man. Therefore, the structures, functioning, and characteristics of animals are contained within man. In addition, man has the structure and characteristics of plants and minerals. Man's dominion of love over all things and his attainment of joy from them is the realization of God's Third Blessing to man.

    The world where the Three Blessings are realized is the ideal world in which God and man, and man and the cosmos, are in complete harmony. Such a world is the Kingdom of Heaven on earth.

    Go ahead Azure. I have an idea but I like to hear yours

    Are you asking me a trick question ? Of course he is good and even better than good
  10. Azure24

    Azure24 Well-Known Member

    Jul 5, 2006
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    To be honest, I didn't really expect you to know this...

    Let's look at it closely...

    "...when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin..."

    Heard of anyone make their soul an offering for sin recently...:rolleyes:

    ...and who said anything about rejection??

    Yeah, what's your point??

    It's our's really??

    "For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them ALL in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon ALL. (Rom. 11:30-39)

    Does our Lord know all men??

    "But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he KNEW all men."

    Our Lord knows ALL men soleil... he knew everything before it was sbout to happen...

    "All men will hate you because of me" (Matt. 10:22)

    Ha, you don't get my point do you??

    You said Jesus wanted to be accepted by the authorities...Read for yourself...

    [selections from Matthew 23]:

    …THEY BIND HEAVY BURDENS and GRIEVOUS to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but will not move them with ONE OF THEIR FINGERS

    WOE unto you, Scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES… you DEVOUR WIDOW’S HOUSES… you shall receive the greater damnation.

    WOE unto you, Scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES…
    WOE unto you, Scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES! You… have omitted… JUDGMENT, MERCY, and FAITH…
    You BLIND GUIDES, which strain out a gnat, and SWALLOW A CAMEL. WOE unto you, Scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES…
    within they are full of EXTORTION AND EXCESS. You BLIND PHARISEES…WOE unto you, Scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES! You are FULL OF DEAD MEN’S BONES, and ALL UNCLEANESS… and HYPOCRISY and INIQUITY…
    WOE unto you, Scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES!… you are the children of them which KILLED the prophets. FILL YOU UP then the measure of your fathers. You SERPENTS, you GENERATION OF SNAKES… you KILL AND CRUCIFY…
    you SCOURGE in your synagogues… Behold your house is left unto you DESOLATE"!!

    Wow!! soleil...If Jesus wanted to be accepted by the Pharisees and scribes He sure went about it in a funny way :D

    More on this later (quite busy at the mo). I critique your "three blessings" also...Later....

    Trick question?? No...A stupid question?? Yes...

    Besides, as expected... your answer is wrong...It may be correct in a relative sense (by the way you can NEVER understand the Scriptures by ONLY understanding the relative).

    Here's Jesus OWN reponse to your answer...Read.

    "And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [yeah, soleil why??] none is good, save ONE, that is, God."

    why did I ask you this stupid question?? I'll explain later...
  11. soleil10

    soleil10 Well-Known Member

    Dec 8, 2008
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    Here again this applies after Jesus changed course

    John 3:11 "Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen but you do not receive our testimony."
    John 5:38-40 "and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe him whom he has sent. You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness to me; yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life."
    John 6:36 "But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe."
    Luke 12:56 "You hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of earth and sky; but why do you not know how to interpret the present time?"
    Matthew 8:10 "When Jesus heard him, he marveled, and said to those who followed him, Truly, I say to you, not even in Israel have I found such faith."
    Luke 10:24 "For I tell you that many prophets and kings desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it."
    John 8:19 "They said to him therefore, 'Where is your Father?' Jesus answered, 'You know neither me nor my Father; if you knew me, you would know my Father also."
    Matthew 8:11-12 "I tell you, many will come from the east and west and sit at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth."
    Matthew 22:8 "Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding is ready, but those invited were not worthy." (Also recorded in Luke 14:24)
    Matthew 23:13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither enter yourselves, nor allow those who would enter to go in."
    Luke 20:9-16 Parable of the wicked tenant "He will come and destroy those tenants, and give the vineyard to others." (Also recorded in Mark 12:1-12)
    John 8:45 "But, because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. Which of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? He who is of God hears the words of God; the reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God."
    John 5:42-43 "But I know that you have not the love of God within you. I have come in my Father's name, and you do not receive me;..."
    Romans 9:31 "But that Israel who pursued the righteousness which is based on law did not succeed in fulfilling that law."
    Romans 10:1-4 "Brethern, my heart's desire and prayer to God for them (Israelites) is that they may be saved. I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but iL is not enlightened. For being ignorant of the righteousness that comes from God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness."
    John 10:24-26 "So the Jews gathered round him and said to him, 'How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.' Jesus answered them, 'I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness to me; but you do not believe, because you do not belong to my sheep."
    John 12:37 "Though he had done so many signs before them, yet they did not believe in him,"
    Acts 13:46 "And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, 'It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles."[FONT=Arial,Helvetica].[/FONT]
    Luke 19:42-44 "And when he drew near and saw the city he wept over it, saying, 'Would that even today you knew the things that make for peace! But now they are hid from your eyes. For the days shall come upon you, when your enemies will cast up a bank about you and surround you, and hem you in on every side, and dash you to the ground, you and your children within you, and they will not leave one stone upon another in you; because you did not know the time of your visitation."
    Matthew 23:27 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! Behold, your house is forsaken and desolate."
    John 8:39 "They answered him, 'Abraham is our father.' Jesus said to them, 'If you were Abraham's children, you would do what Abraham did, but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth which I heard from God; this is not what Abraham did."
    Luke 21:23 "Alas for those who are with child and for those who give suck in those days! For great distress shall be upon the earth and wrath upon this people!"
    Luke 23:28-30 "But Jesus turning to them said, 'Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me, but weep for yourselves and for you children. For behold, the days are coming when they will say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bore, and the breasts that never gave suck!' Then they will begin to say to the mountains, 'Fall on us'; and to the hills, 'Cover us'."
    Matthew 21:31-32 "Jesus said to them, 'Truly, I say to you, the tax collectors and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you. For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the harlots believed him; and even when you saw it, you did not afterward repent and believe him."
    Matthew 21:43-45 "Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation producing the fruits of it.' When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he was speaking about them."
    Matthew 23:31-33 "Thus you witness against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of you fathers. You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?"
    John 7:19 "Did not Moses give you the law? Yet none of you keeps the law. Why do you seek to kill me?"
    John 8:37 "I know that you are descendants of Abraham; yet you seek to kill me, because my word finds no place in you."
    Romans 11:17-24 Parable of the olive tree

    It was Satan's will not God's will to have Jesus crucified
    1. Satan worked in Judas.
    John 13:2 "And during supper, when the devil had already put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him.."
    John 13:26-27 "So when he had dipped the morsel, he gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot. Then after the morsel, Satan entered into him. Jesus said to him, 'What you are going to do, do quickly."
    John 6:70-71 "Jesus answered them, 'Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?' He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was to betray him."
    John 13:11 "For he knew who was to betray him; that was why he said, 'You are not all clean."
    2. Jesus condemned Judas for his betrayal. He would not do so if it were God's will for the crucifixion.
    Matthew 26:24 "Woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born."

    3)Satan worked through the nation of Israel to crucify Jesus
    a) The nation of Israel was responsible for the crucifixion.
    John 18:35 "Pilate answered 'Am I a Jew? Your own nation and the chief priests have handed you over to me..."
    John 19:7 "The Jews answered him, 'We have a law, and by that law he ought to die, because he has made himself the Son of God."
    John 19:15 "They (the Jews) cried out, 'Away with him, away with him, crucify him."
    Acts 3:12-15 "(Peter) Men of Israel, why do you wonder at this, or why do you stare at us, as though by our own power or piety we have made him walk? The God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob, the God of our fathers glorified his servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release him. But you denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, and killed the Author of life, whom God raised from the dead."\
    Acts 4:10 "be it known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified.."
    b. Jesus said Satan worked through the Israelites.
    John 8:40-41 "but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth which I heard from God; this is not what Abraham did. You do what your father did."
    John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning.."
    John 14:30 "I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming.."
    c)Only those who do God's will will enter heaven. Judas and the israelites were condemned by Jesus, therefore their crucifixion of Jesus could not have been God's will.
    Matthew 7:21 "Not every one who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

    4)The tragedy of the crucifixion soon became evident
    Jesus had much grief in the Garden of Gethsemane
    Matthew 26:38 "Then he said to them, 'My soul is very sorrowful, even unto death; remain here, and watch over me." (also in Mark 14:34)
    Mark 14:33 "And he took with him Peter and James and John and began to be greatly distressed and troubled."
    John 12:27 "Now is my soul troubled..."
    Luke 22:44 "And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly; and his sweat became like great drops of blood falling down upon the ground."
    Jesus prayed for this hour to pass form him.
    Matthew 26:39,42,44 "And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, 'My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt...Again, for the second time, he went away and prayed, 'My Father, if this cannot pass unless I drink it, thy will be done.'...So, leaving them again, he went away and prayed for the third time, saying the same words." (Also recorded in Mark 14:35-36, and Luke 22:42)
    Many say Jesus prayed from his human weakness and fear. What an insult to our Lord! Jesus said himself in Luke 12:4,"I tell you, my friends, do not fear those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do." Many saints, war heroes and patriots have willingly and gladly given their lives for their country. Surely Jesus was no less than they were! Jesus knew that the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth would have to be postponed until the second coming of Christ if he died, and thus prayed in this manner.
    [FONT=Arial,Helvetica]C. Jesus forgave the Israelites, however, for their ignorance of God's will.[/FONT]
    Luke 23:34 "And Jesus said, 'Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do."
    Darkeness surrounded the tragedy of the crucifixion
    Luke 22:53 "When I was with you day after day in the temple, you did not lay hands on me. But this is your hour, and the power of darkness."
    Matthew 27:50,1,45" And Jesus cried again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit. And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split;.. Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land until the ninth hour.." (Also recorded in Mark 15:33,38 and Luke 23:44-45

    I will respond to the rest of your post later
  12. Azure24

    Azure24 Well-Known Member

    Jul 5, 2006
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    So you agree this is a prophecy....A prophecy....You know like before it happened...How can Jesus change course before anything has even happened??

    I've read your exhausting amount of verses (now I know how it feels). But I have not seen the rejection you were suggesting...

    I can't find your post, but you suggested Jesus tried desperately hard to be accepted but was rejected, this is not true...nor do your quotes suggest this...
    This verse here is interesting though, soleil...Read my emphasis (in the red).

    Now we know where rightouesness comes from...Because it certainly doesn't come from us....In fact nothing good does...

    Do not however think for a moment that Jesus cannot make an unbeliever a believer...I have 'spiritual' proof of this...

    Satan isn't doing God's will (in a sense) BUT Satan is fulfilling God's intention...God created his opposition...In other words, not only does God know what will happen God is the reason WHY it happens...

    True. But read (Mrk. 1:34, 39), (Mrk 16:9) etc, etc...

    We all know Jesus can cast out devils, and command even Satan (Matt. 16:23). Jesus even knew Judas was about to betray him (Matt. 17:22), (Matt. 20:18), (Matt. 26:2,21) etc, etc.... But did He do anything about it?? Surely He would've if it weren't meant to happen...

    Precisely, again...
    You do realise you're proving my point?? ...Jesus CHOSE them knowing one of them "is a devil"...

    "....because he knew all men...." (Jhn. 2:24)

    That verse is meant to say "better for that man ['that man' meaning Jesus] if he [Judas] had not been born"...

    Anyway...This is not condemnation...Jesus didn't comdemn anyone (Jhn. 12:47), (Jhn 3:17) etc, etc...

    Soleil, you look only at the relative...

    Read Acts 4:27-28

    "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."

    and here...

    "Then said Pilate unto Him, Speak you not unto me? Know you not that I HAVE POWER to crucify you, and have POWER TO RELEASE YOU? Jesus answered, You could have NO POWER AT ALL against Me, except it were GIVEN YOU from above…" (John 19:10-11).

    The same obviously goes for Israel and the WHOLE world of course...

    Again Jesus DIDN'T condemn ANYONE ....And of course they can't (mind you this kingdom is not in Heaven)...But this is God's intention...In the end EVERYONE will do his will and we will WANT to do it...

    "... We rely on the living God, Who is the Savior of all mankind, especially of believers."

    Ok...But show me it wasn't meant to happen...
    Why did Jesus do this... do you think soleil??

    What's your point here soleil?? Many have to wait many years also to get what they want too...And these same people are not troubled or destressed?? Is Jesus any less than they??...Where did Jesus say He was going to start a Kingdom in that life time?? When the resurrected Jesus appeared before his disciples did he say anything about not being able to start his knigdom...Did he even say it before his crucifixion??

    No. What an insult to suggest God's Kingdom will have to be "postponed" because of puny mankind!!! Oh, sorry God!! But you gonna have to wait until we're ready for you!!! How pathetic!!!
    ...and your point?? Are you suggesting I denied any of this stuff happened??

    Those verses are all relative...The absolute is that God is responsible for everything...Acts 4:27-28 and many others prove it...
  13. Azure24

    Azure24 Well-Known Member

    Jul 5, 2006
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    Ok then, the "three blessings"

    Can you give me a verse where God directly says this?? And to Adam???

    Adam could not be one with God...Adam was a NATURAL man...

    "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." (I Cor. 2:14)

    If Adam was natural he would have had a carnal mind, which therefore means he hated God...

    "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." (Rom. 8:7)

    because we are told...

    "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the Last Adam [Jesus Christ] was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is NATURAL; and afterward that which is SPIRITUAL" (I Cor. 15:45-46).

    So God could not have given this commandment to Adam...

    Ok?? Next...

    The resurrection of the dead is one of Jesus' key teachings...It's strange that you never mention it...

    "And as it is appointed unto men once to die..." (Heb 9:27)

    Anyway...after the resurrection (which by the way IS necessary) men will become like angels of God and will NOT marry....Let alone have kids....

    "Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God., For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage ...but are AS THE ANGELS of God in heaven" (Matt. 22:30).

    I recommend you read the whole chapter 20...

    True. God gave man dominion...But this again, is only relative...

    Relative: Men rule the world...

    "...kings of the earth and of the whole world..." (Rev. 16:14)

    "Higher" Relative: Satan rules the world...

    "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." (Eph 6:12)

    "In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not..."

    Absolute: God rules the world...

    "God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth." (Acts.17:24)

    "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." (Matt. 28:18)
  14. soleil10

    soleil10 Well-Known Member

    Dec 8, 2008
    Likes Received:
    There were 2 prophecies: One of Suffering and one of Glory knowing that fallen men could have gone either way.

    If all these verses do not show you that people did no believe in him and rejected him, nothing will.

    God had prepared people of Jesus' time to receive him and he tried his utmost best for them to believe in him even through miracles

    God's will for the Kingdom of Heaven on earth was to prepare the chosen nation of Israel for 2000 years to follow and receive Jesus, then to take Christ to the entire world for salvation.

    A. God chose the nation of Israel to believe and receive Christ.

    Psalms 87:1-3 "On the holy mount stands the city he founded; the Lord loves the gates of Zion more than all the dwelling places of Jacob. Glorious things are spoken of you, O city of God."
    Psalms 105:6 "O offspring of Abraham, his servant, sons of Jacob, his chosen ones!"
    Psalms 131:13 "For the Lord has chosen Zion; he has desired it for his habitation."
    Psalms 135:4 "For the Lord has chosen Jacob for himself, Israel as his own possession."
    Isaiah 41:8-10 "But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend; you whom I took from the ends of the earth, and called from its farthest corners, saying to you, 'You are my servant, I have chosen you and not cast you off'; fear not, for I am with you, be not dismayed, for I am you God; I will strengthen you, I will help you, I will help you, I I will uphold with my victorious right hand."
    Romans 9:4-5 "They are Israelites, and to them belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. God who is over all be blessed for ever. Amen."

    B. Israel longed for this salvation in receiving Jesus."

    Psalms 24:9-10 "Lift up your heads, O gates! And be lifted up, O ancient doors! that the King of glory may come in. Who is this King of Glory? The Lord of Hosts, he is the King of Glory!"
    Psalms 25:22 "Redeem Israel, O God, out of all his troubles."
    Psalms 79:9 "Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory of thy name; deliver us, and forgive our sins, for thy name's sake!"
    Psalms 80:3 "Restore us, O God; let thy face shine, that we maybe saved!"
    Psalms 85:7,9 "Show us thy steadfast love, O Lord, and grant us thy salvation. Surely his salvation is at hand for those who fear him, that glory may dwell in our land."
    Psalms 95:1 "0 come, let us sing to the Lord; let us make a joyful noise to the rock of our salvation."
    Psalms 149:2 "Let Israel be glad in his Maker, let the sons of Zion rejoice in their King!"
    Psalms 115:9 "o Israel, trust in the Lord! He is their help and their shield."
    Isaiah 12:6 "Shout, and sing for joy, O inhabitant of Zion, for great in your midst is the Holy One of Israel."
    Isaiah 25:9 "It will be said on that day, 'Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, that he might save us. This is the Lord; we have waited for him; let us be glad and rejoice in his salvation."
    Psalms 33:20-21 "Yea, our heart is glad in him, because we trust in his holy name. Let thy steadfast love, O Lord, be upon us, even as we hope in thee."
    Acts 1:6 "So when they had come together, they asked him, 'Lord, will you at this time restore the Kingdom to Israel?"

    C. God promised salvation through Christ to Israel

    Psalms 34:22 "The Lord redeems the life of his servants; none of those who take refuge in him will be condemned."
    Psalms 81:10 "I am the Lord your God, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt. Open your mouth wide, and I will fill it."
    Psalms 94:14 "For the Lord will not forsake his people; he will not abandon his heritage;"
    Psalms 102:16 "For the Lord will build up Zion, he will appear in his glory."
    Psalms 115:12 "The Lord has been mindful of us; he will bless us; he will bless the house of Israel..."
    Psalms 130:8 "And he will redeem Israel from all his iniquities."
    Psalms 131:17 "There I will make a horn to sprout for David; I have prepared a lamp for my anointed."
    Isaiah 24:23 "Then the moon will be confounded, and the sun ashamed; for the Lord of hosts will reign of Mount Zion and in Jerusalem and before his elders he will manifest his glory."
    Isaiah 30:18-21 "Therefore the Lord waits to be gracious to you; therefore he exalts himself to show mercy to you. For the Lord is a God of justice; blessed are all those who wait for him. Yea, O people in Zion who dwell at Jerusalem; you shall weep no more. He will surely be gracious to you at the sound of your cry; when he hears it, he will answer you. And though the Lord give you the bread of adversity and the water of affliction, yet your Teacher will not hide himself anymore, but your eyes shall see your Teacher. And your ears shall hear a word behind you saying, 'This is the way, walk in it,' when you turn to the right or when you turn to the left."
    Isaiah 41:14 "Fear not, you worm Jacob, you men of Israel! I will help you says the Lord; your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel."
    Joel 2:27 "You shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I, the Lord, am your God and there is none else. And my people shall never again be put to shame."
    Zechariah 9:16 "On that day the Lord their God will save them for they are the flock of his people; for like the jewels of a crown they shall shine on his land."
    Matthew 2:5-6 "They told him, 'In Bethlehem of Judea, for so it is written by the prophet: 'And you, o Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah; for from you shall come a ruler who will govern my people Israel."
    Luke 2:30 "for mine eyes have seen thy salvation which thou hast prepared in the presence of all peoples, a light for revelation to the Gentiles, and for glory to thy people Israel."
    John 1:31 "I myself (John the Baptist) did not know him; but for this I came baptizing with water, that he might be revealed to Israel."
    Romans 15:8 "For I tell you that Christ became a servant to the circumcised to show God's truthfulness, in order to confirm the promises given to the patriarchs."
    D. The nation of Israel was to give witness and salvation to the world through Christ.
    Isaiah 27:6 "In days to come Jacob shall take root, Israel shall blossom and put forth shoots, and fill the whole world with fruit."
    Isaiah 42:1 "Behold my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen in whom my soul delights; I have put my Spirit upon him, he will bring forth justice to the nations."
    Isaiah 43:10 "You are my witnesses' says the Lord, 'and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am He."
    Isaiah 49:5-6 "And now the Lord says, who formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob back to him, and that Israel might be gathered to him, for I am honored in the eyes of the Lord, and my God has become my strength--he says: 'It is too light a thing that you should be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob and to restore the preserved of Israel; I will give you as a light to the nations, that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth."
    Zechariah 8:20-23 "Thus says the Lord of hosts: Peoples shall yet come, even the inhabitants of many cities; the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, 'Let us go at once to entreat the favor of the Lord, and to seek the Lord of hosts; I am going.' Many peoples and strong nations shall come to seek the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem and to entreat the favor of the Lord. Thus says the Lord of hosts: In those days ten men from the nations of every tongue shall take hold of the robe of a Jew, saying, 'Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you."
    Romans 1:16 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel: it is the power of God for salvation to every one who has faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek."
    Romans 3:2 "...to begin with, the Jews are entrusted with the oracles of God."
    John 4:22 "(Jesus to a Samaritan woman) You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews."

    E. Jesus focused on bringing he Israel nation to believe in him as the Christ.

    Matthew 10:5 "These twelve Jesus sent out, charging them, 'Go nowhere among the Gentiles, and enter no town of the Samaritans, but go rather to the lost sheep of the House of Israel."
    John 18:20 "Jesus answered him, ' I have spoken openly to the world; I have always taught in synagogues and in the temple where all Jews come together; . ."
    Matthew 15:23-27 "But he (Jesus) did not answer her (a woman possessed) a word. And his disciples came and begged him, saying, "Send her away, for she is crying after us." He answered, 'I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.' But she came and knelt before him, saying, 'Lord, help me.' And he answered, 'It is not fair to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs." (Also recorded in Mark 7:25-27)
    Romans 11:29 "For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."Jesus focused on fulfilling the irrevocable call of Israel to God.

    The will of God for salvation of the jews required belief, faith and obedience to Jesus

    A.God wanted the Israelites to believe, and obey Jesus.

    John 6:28 "Then they said to him, 'What must we do, to be doing the works of God?' Jesus answered the, 'This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."
    John 5:46 "If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote of me."
    John 5:24 "Truly, truly I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life."
    Matthew 10:32 "So every one who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven."
    Matthew 10:40 "He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives him who sent me." (Also recorded in John 13:20)
    John 12:44-46 "And Jesus cried out and said, 'He who believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me. And he who sees me sees him who sent me. I have come as light into the world, that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness.
    John 8:31-32 "Jesus then said to the Jews who had believed in him, 'If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
    John 8:51 "Truly, truly, I say to you, if any one keeps my word, he will never see death."
    John 11:25 "Jesus said to her, 'I am the resurrection and the life, he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live."
    John 11:42 "I knew that thou hearest me always, but I have said this on account of the people standing by, that they may believe that thou didst send me." (Jesus to Heavenly Father.)
    John 12:26 "If any one serves me, he must follow me; and where I am, there shall my servant be also; if any one serves me, the Father will honor him."
    John 14:7 "If you had known me, you would have known my Father also; henceforth you know him and have seen him."
    John 14:11-12 "Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father in me; or else believe me for the sake of the works themselves. Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father."
    John 14:21 "He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me; and he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him."
    John 6:39 "and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day.'
    John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life."
    John 16:27 "For the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came from the Father."
    John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."

    B. Jesus showed by his actions that the will of God was for the Israelites to believe in him.

    1. The people needed miracles and works to believe.
    John 4:48 "Jesus therefore said to him, 'Unless you see signs and wonders you will not believe."
    John 6:30 "So they said to him, 'Then what sign do you do, that we may see, and believe you? What work do you perform?"
    John 7:31 "Yet many of the people believed in him; they said, 'When the Christ appears, will he do more signs than this man has done?"

    2. Jesus did works and miracles so the Israelites could believe in him.
    John 20:30-31 "Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name."
    John 10:38 "but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father."
    Acts 2:22 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs which God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know.."
    John 14:11 "Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father in me; or else believe me for the sake of the works themselves."
  15. soleil10

    soleil10 Well-Known Member

    Dec 8, 2008
    Likes Received:
    2nd part of my response

    C. Non believers of Jesus deny the will of God

    John 16:9 "concerning sin, because they do not believe in me;"
    Luke 10:16 "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."
    John 8:24 "I told you that you would die in your sins, for you will die in your sins unless you believe that I am he."
    Luke 12:9 "but he who denies me before men will be denied before the angels of God."
    Luke 19:27 "But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them; bring them here and slay them before me."
    Luke 3:9 "Even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees; every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."
    Luke 13:9 "And if it bears fruit next year, well and good; but if not, you can cut it down."
    Matthew 7:26 "And every one who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house upon the sand."
    Matthew 12:30 "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters." (Also recorded in Mark 9:40, Luke 9:50, and Luke 11:23)
    John 5:23 "that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him."

    quote=Azure24;197255]This verse here is interesting though, soleil...Read my emphasis (in the red).
    Now we know where rightouesness comes from...Because it certainly doesn't come from us....In fact nothing good does...
    Do not however think for a moment that Jesus cannot make an unbeliever a believer...I have 'spiritual' proof of this...[/quote]
    I do not know how to go back and find the verse you are talking about.

    A pure God of goodness cannot ceate evil. He has none to create it with.

    By that time the course of the cross had become the course to follow.

    Same answer
    Azure, you are playing with words here. Jesus was clearly talking about Judas
    Once again, Jesus with full obedience followed God's direction (the course of the cross) after he was rejected and could no establish the Kingdom of God on earth during his life time.

    As showned in the verses above, it was not God's original will for Jesus to be rejected. Think how God felt when Jesus was rejected and had to offer his body, his Godly seed and his family with endless descendants like the stars in the sly.

    see verses above

    Jesus clearly proclaimed, repent, the kingdom of God is at hand.
    The verses about Jesus being rejected are just too many but you do not want to see it.

    It is unfortunately true that God's will is postponed because of man's failures. The whole bible speaks about it. It is the same even today.

    It is easy to put God in charge of everything and be responsible for nothing. God wants a true relationship of love with his children. He did not create puppets. For true love to exist it has to be free and unconditional from both sides
  16. Azure24

    Azure24 Well-Known Member

    Jul 5, 2006
    Likes Received:
    Of course many didn't believe in him...I never denied this...

    This is not true...I'll show you...

    These "people" your talking about are the mutitude, am I correct?

    Jesus spoke to the multidtude in parables ONLY...

    "All these things spoke Jesus unto the multitude in PARABLES; and without a parable spoke He not unto them" (Matt. 13:34).

    Did you see "...without a parable spoke He not unto them"?

    "But without a PARABLE spoke He not unto them…" (Mark 4:34).

    So now we know this....soleil, understand this also...

    "This PARABLE spoke Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which He spoke unto them" (John 10:6).

    No one understood His parables...

    Many people today will say Jesus spoke in parables so it was easy for people to understand...THIS IS NOT TRUE...

    Jesus taught in parables only, and no one understood His parables, hence Jesus taught in a way that He knew no one would understand His message. This truth of Scripture is so revolutionary to the minds of most Christians that many will think it blasphemy, and yet the Scriptures abound with statements that fully support it.

    Do you want to know why Jesus spoke in parables, soleil...Is it so everyone can recieve him? Let's hear it from Jesus himself...

    "And the disciples came, and said unto Him, Why do you speak unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but unto them it is not given" (Matt. 13:10-11).

    Yeah right soleil...Does this sound like God prepared people of Jesus' time to recieve him and was He trying to get them to believe...Well? I'm not making things up...

    "Jesus spoke in parables to make His quaint little stories clear and understandable to the uneducated farmers of Judea," my foot: "and when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard His parables, they perceived that He spoke of them" (Matt. 21:45). The Chief Priests and Pharisees were generally highly educated people. But even they didn’t know what Jesus’ parables really meant, but they on one occasion at least, "perceived" that Jesus was speaking about them.

    This again is not true...

    "But it shall come to pass, if you [Israel] will not hearken unto the voice of the Lord your God, to observe to do all His commandments and His statutes which I command you this day; that all these curses shall come upon you, and overtake you…" (Deut. 28:15 thru 19).

    Later God told Moses which course of action Israel would take: obedience and blessings or disobedience and cursings. God then prophesied that Israel would be disobedient and utterly corrupt themselves. Once God pronounced which way they would go, then that is the way they had to go.

    And so, Who is it that is responsible for all of these curses that will come upon Israel? None other than "the LORD." Israel’s "will" was not free and was therefore helpless to prevent what "the LORD" had stated WOULD HAPPEN:

    "The LORD shall send upon you cursing…" (Deut. 28:20).
    "The LORD shall make the pestilence cleave unto theee…" (Ver. 21).
    "The LORD shall smite thee with a consumption…" (Vers. 22-23).
    "The LORD shall make the rain…" (Ver. 24).
    "The LORD shall cause thee to be smitten…" (Vers. 25-26).
    "The LORD will smite thee…" (Ver. 27).
    "The LORD shall smite thee…" (Vers. 28-34).
    "The LORD shall smite thee…" (Ver. 35).
    "The LORD shall bring thee…" (Vers. 36-47).
    "Therefore shall you serve your enemies which THE LORD shall send against thee…" (Vers. 48-58)
    "Then the LORD will make your plagues wonderful [extraordinary]…" (Ver. 59).
    "Moreover HE [the LORD] will bring upon thee all the diseases of Egypt…" (Vers. 60-63).
    "And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people…" (Ver. 64).
    "And the LORD shall bring you into Egypt again…" (Ver. 68).


    "For MANY are called, but FEW are chosen" (Matt. 22:14).

    "So the last [called] shall be first, and the first [called] last..." (Matt. 20:16).
  17. Azure24

    Azure24 Well-Known Member

    Jul 5, 2006
    Likes Received:
    Ok, now part two...

    I've read your verses...

    When prophecy mentions Jerusalem, Judah, or Israel, is it speaking of literal Jerusalem, Judah, or Israel?? For Christian teachers and scholars, if "context, context, context" is the god of theological interpretation, then "literal, literal, literal," has got to be their vice-god. If this is true, then when it speaks of "Abraham’s seed," it must mean "literal" bloodline descendants of Abraham, correct? No, NOT correct!

    What was the most holy, righteous, sure sign that one was a descendant of Abraham and obedient to the One True God? Answer: Being circumcised on the 8th day.

    "This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and your seed after you; Every man child among you shall be CIRCUMCISED" (Gen. 17:10).

    Now then, who are the "circumcised Jews" of end time prophecy? Are they the literal, physical, circumcised Jews who are the literal, physical Jews of the literal, physical racial line of Abraham? NO:

    "For he is NOT a Jew, which is one outwardly [physically circumcised and of the physical line of Abraham] neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh: But he IS a Jew which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and NOT of the letter [context, context, context: literal, literal, literal]; whose praise is not of men, but of God" (Rom. 2:28-29).

    Notice that this Scripture is found in "Romans." Rome is a Gentile nation, not a nation of Israel. Paul is telling Gentile Romans that THEY can be the TRUE JEW INWARDLY OF THE HEART AND SPRIT. Wow! Romans can be "JEWS?" Who would have ever thought? Maybe that was just a slip of Paul’s tongue. Surely he isn’t telling us that under the New Covenant GENTILES ARE JEWS is he? Here’s a second witness:

    "Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision [mutilation—those Jews who wanted to cut off the flesh of grown men among the Gentiles]. FOR WE [former pagan, present GENTILE Philippians of Philippi—North Central Greece] ARE THE CIRCUMCISION which worship God in the spirit and rejoice in Christ Jesus, an have NO confidence in the flesh" (Phil. 3:2-3).

    According to God, are those literal, physical Jews of the racial line of Abraham who are circumcised in the flesh, "Jews." NO, former pagan Gentiles are the TRUE JEWS according to Scripture.

    But weren’t all the "promises" to Abraham for "HIS SEED? Yes, of course, but the question now is, "Who IS Abraham’s seed?"

    "Not as though the word of God has taken none effect [God is not contradicting here]. For they are NOT all Israel, which are Israel. Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children, but, In Isaac shall your seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the FLESH, these are NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: but the children of the PROMISE ARE counted for the seed" (Rom. 9:6-8).

    Am I going too fast for you soleil?

    Yes, God intended from the beginning that the TRUE JEW, the SPIRITUAL JEW, the TRUE SEED of Abraham, the TRUE HEIR to the promises was to be the GENTILES!

    "And if you [Paul is writing to GENTILE Galatians] be Christ’s, then are you Abraham’s SEED, and HEIRS according to the PROMISE" (Gal. 3:29).

    "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision avails anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature [or creation]. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the ISRAEL OF GOD" (Gal. 6:15-16).

    Yes, it is the "new creature in Christ Jesus" which is now "the ISRAEL OF GOD," not the Christ forsaking Jews of modern day Palestine.

    Can Christ’s Church also be a "nation?" It can and it is:

    "But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy NATION, a peculiar people: that you should show forth the praises of Him who has called you out of darkness into his marvelous light: Which in time past were NOT A PEOPLE [they were pagan and they were GENTILE. See Rom. 10:20], but are NOW the people of God; which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy" (I Pet. 2:9-10).

    The Church of Christ has grown into a "Great House," with many children. Paul explains:

    "But in A GREAT HOUSE there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth and some to honor, and some to dishonor" (II Tim. 2:20).

    You see soleil...I've told you many. many times...

    Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is NATURAL; and afterward that which is SPIRITUAL" (I Cor. 15:42-46).

    First it is the natural Israel...Then it is the spiritual Israel...

    Make no mistake about it, what God is creating is SPIRITUAL and eternal. But first He created the physical and the temporary. He has dealt with the physical and temporary in the past, and will get do so in the future, but the time will come when God will do away with physical things, and then all will be spiritual. There was an OLD Covenant and now there is a NEW Covenant. The first was based solely on the physical and temporary promises, whereas the second is based on SPIRITUAL AND PERMANENT promises!

    It is just amazing to me how the Christian churches rally around the state of Israel and its capital Jerusalem, as though Jerusalem is a "holy city" to be adored and protected at all cost. A popular Jewish Christian who appears on international television always closes his program by asking everyone to "Pray for the peace of Jerusalem." Let me ask candidly: "Are those prayers being answered?" Turn on your TV or look at this morning’s newspaper and then tell me if these prayers are being answered!

    Is the orthodox religion of Judaism the way to God’s heart? Is this the one religion by which men can be saved WITHOUT Christ? Well, according to one famous and rich international evangelist, the answer is YES! Christless Judaism is a means to salvation.

    Is this true soleil?

    "Neither is there salvation in any other; for there is none other name [that name is JESUS] under heaven given among men, whereby we MUST be saved" (Acts 4:12).

    People needed miracles to believe because they did not believe otherwise...Therefore they were not true believers...

    "Now when he [Jesus] was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. But Jesus did NOT commit himself unto them, because he knew all men..." (John. 2:23-24)

    But you forgot to mention this didn't you soleil...

    Let us, then also look at Revelation...

    "And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast.." (Rev. 13:14)

    "For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles..."
    (Rev. 16:14)

    "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them..." (Rev. 19:20)

    They were believeing in miracles only...But not in Christ...

    Read I Cor. 13...

    Did Jesus do miracles to make people believe? Or did Jesus do miracles to help people?

    John 20:30-31 Is not refering to Israelites...Jews DO NOT believe in the NT scriptures...
  18. Azure24

    Azure24 Well-Known Member

    Jul 5, 2006
    Likes Received:
    Finally...Part three.

    Ok....What's your point?

    Soleil...God is NOT evil...God has knowledge of good and evil, so do we...(Gen. 3:22)

    But unlike MOST of us... not only does God have knowledge of good and Evil...God has UNDERSTANDING of good and evil...

    Only God can play with fire soleil...children cannot play with fire...otherwise we would get burnt...

    "Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not EVIL AND GOOD?" (Lam. 3:38).

    "Or has not the potter [GOD] the right over the clay, out of the same kneading to make one vessel, indeed, for honor, yet, on for DISHONOR?" (Rom. 9:19-25).

    "...I [GOD] will bring EVIL from the north, and a GREAT DESTRUCTION" (Jer. 4:6).

    "...Hear, O earth: behold, I [GOD] will bring EVIL upon this people..." (Jer. 6:19).

    "And he said, I [the lying spirit] will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets... and He [GOD] said, ...GO forth, and DO SO" (I Kg. 22:22).

    "He [GOD] turned their heart to HATE HIS PEOPLE..." (Psa. 105:25).

    "...Thus said the Lord; Behold, I FRAME EVIL AGAINST YOU, and devise a device against you..." (Jer. 18:11).

    "O LORD, why has THOU MADE US TO ERR from thy ways, and HARDENED OUR HEART from thy fear?" (Isa. 63:17).

    "...so shall the Lord bring upon you ALL EVIL THINGS, until he have destroyed you..." (Josh. 23:15).

    "...shall there be EVIL in a city, and the LORD HAS NOT DONE IT?" (Am. 3:6).

    "Thus saith the Lord of hosts... go and SMITE Amelek... DESTROY... SLAY both man and woman, INFANT AND SUCKLING..." (I Sam. 15:2-3).

    These may not be verses for Sunday school children, but they are Scripture for the mature.

    God cannot create evil?? Soleil....What part of ALL do you not understand?

    "ALL IS OF GOD" (Eph. 1:11, Rom. 11:36, II Cor.5:18), Etc.

    Or should that be "ALL except evil"?

    Your words mean nothing to me soleil...The Scriptures are better than someone's opinion...

    God said He was "
    Declaring the end from the beginning..." (Isa. 46:10)

    "Yet it PLEASED the LORD to BRUISE him [Jesus] ; He [God] hath put him [Jesus] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand." (Isa. 53:10)

    Christ fulfilled the prophecy...He IS the passover lamb...

    The Passover in ancient Israel was a type of its true fulfillment to come in our Lord's crucifixion, "Purge out therefore the old leaven that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened [but now speaking spiritually]. For even Christ our PASSOVER [Lamb] is sacrificed [crucified] for us " (I Cor. 5:7).

    I'm not playing with words...Did I not show you Jesus didn't condemn anyone?

    "And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world." (John. 12:47)

    "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved." (John. 3:17)

    Is this playing with words?

    You use scripture for some of your points then don't for others...gee... I wonder why?

    God does NOT change!! I've showed you this so many times it hurts...

    "Declaring the end from the beginning..." (Isa. 46:10)

    Just because it was always going to happen doesn't make it a good thing...But it IS necassary...

    "For whom the Lord loves He CHASTENS..." (Heb. 12:6).

    There is no escaping it. If you are to be a "son of God" you will be chastened. Even if involving some punishment, the whole thrust of the word is to train, educate, discipline, instruct, etc. These are all good things not to be feared. But there is more, so we might just as well read it and get our attitudes adjusted to it. The rest of the verse:

    "For whom the Lord loves He CHASTENS, and [AND] ...SCOURGES every son whom He receives [or is assenting]" (Heb. 12:6)

    "SCOURGES?" No, not scourging! Does God show His love toward us by scourging us? It is absolutely necessary. Scourging is definitely even more severe and harsh than chastening.
    The word "scourge" in Heb. 12:6 is from the Greek word mastigoo and here’s its definition: "to flog (literally or figuratively) -- scourge" Strong’s Greek Dictionary, page 46. And what does "flog" mean?
    "flog 1. To beat severely with a whip or rod." Page 531 American heritage College Dictionary.
    This word "scourge" in Heb. 12:6 which God performs on us, is the very same word found in John 19:1 where it says they took Jesus and "scourged" Him. Now then, will God literally "BEAT SEVERELY WITH A WHIP OR ROD" every son that He receives? No, not necessarily, even though they did literally do so to Paul and many other followers of Jesus Christ. Remember that the definition said it can be "literal OR figurative."
    Many people have come to know Christ in their senior years, and God does not literally beat every little old lady with whips and rods when they turn to Him. However, the chastening of God’s grace which we read about in Titus 2:11 can certainly seem like a real flogging. God will chasten us until He drives out the beast in us. The beast of supposed "free will" which is really self-will does not want to leave peaceably! It takes the very presence of Jesus Christ to dispel the beast of humanistic self-determinism, commonly called "free will."
    Although we are not condemned when God judges us, we nonetheless must be chastened.
    "If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chastens not? But if you be without chastisement, whereof ALL are partakers, then are you *******s, and NOT sons. Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection into the Father of spirits, and live? For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but He for OUR PROFIT, that we might be partakers of His holiness. Now no chastening for the present seems to be joyous, but GRIEVOUS: nevertheless afterward it yields the PEACEABLE FRUIT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS unto them which are exercised thereby" (Heb. 12:7--11).
    So it is essential that we accept God’s chastisement which is how He "judges" us.
    The reason we are not "condemned" with the world is because we accept God’s judgment in our lives
    "There is therefore now NO CONDEMNATION to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" (Rom. 8:1).

    The kingdom is at hand...Yeah, but it is not here yet...

    Jesus was rejected...And your point? Jesus knew he was going to be rejected by most. He KNEW ALL men...

    Jesus NEVER...NEVER said the Kingdom was postponed...Where??

    Do you think God sits around waiting to see what man will do next?

    Do you think He likes nothing better than to put his feet up and watch CNN and catch up with the lastest news...to see what the "little one's are up to?"

    No Because God is "Declaring the end from the beginning..." (Isa. 46:10)
  19. Azure24

    Azure24 Well-Known Member

    Jul 5, 2006
    Likes Received:
    One more soleil...Just for you...

    This will be short and sweet...

    God IS in chagre of everything and IS responsible for everything...

    Where in Scripture does it say man is responsible?? It say's man is accountable...but not responsible...

    Read the dozens of scriptures where we are likened not only to "children," but to "little children." God is dealing with mankind as minors. He holds them accountable, but nowhere does God hold man responsible. Show me one Scripture.

    When a minor (a child) commits a crime, even the unjust courts of our land do not hold him responsible. Is his crime simply overlooked? No. He must give an account for his actions. He is accountable. He might be the victim of a broken home, with a drunkard father, a prostitute mother, drug-hooked sisters, and gang-member brothers. Thus, he is not considered responsible. Nonetheless, he is still accountable.

    Look at the King of Assyria...

    The king of Assyria was as proud of his "free will" as theologians are of theirs: "Woe, Assyria! Club of My anger! And a rod! He, in their hand, is my menace! Among a nation polluted will I send him. And against a people, object of My rage, will I instruct him. To loot, loot and to plunder, plunder, And to place them for tramping, as the clay of the streets. Yet he, not so is he planning, And his heart, not so is devising. For to exterminate is in his heart, And to cut off nations not a few." (Isa. 10:5-7)

    "I will visit evil on the fruit of the insolent heart of the king of
    Assyria. And the high beauty of his eyes. For, says he, "By the vigor of my hand I did it, And by my wisdom, for understanding have I." (Vers. 12-13).

    And what does God have to say concerning this King of Assyria's self-appointed proud "free will" heart?

    "Will the axe [Assyrian King] beautify itself over the one [God] hewing with it? Should the chief's mace magnify itself over the one [God] waving it? As if a club is also waving the one raising it! As if a rod is raising one who is not wood!" (Isa. 10:15).

    God says He used the Assyrian King just as surely as if the King were an axe in God's own hand. This was all of God. But the King, he didn't think so. That's not what was in his mind. Ver. 5 is so clear and so simple to understand: "Oh Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation."

    It wouldn't matter if there were a place in Scripture that lumped altogether every single concept of man's choices, powers, abilities, authority, talents, intentions, desires, wishes, plans, sayings and doings into one single verse; it still wouldn't prove that man has a "free will." Why? Because God claims to operate it all (Eph. 11:1).
    Surely you can see from Isaiah 10 that that is how God operates. If one refuses to see this, then he is stubborn as to the truth.
    The king of Assyria did say, in effect, that by himself, he planned and carried out his own choices according to what his heart desired. But GOD says that He Himself did it. God planned it and God carried it out. And furthermore, God punished the king for being so proud and haughty as to think he did it himself. He actually did what God caused him to do. This was not wrong on God's part. It will be good for the king of Assyria to understand this in resurrection. He will be embarrassed by his own vanity and will give glory to God (Phil. 2:11).
    soleil, give glory to God. Mankind will be found of God even though they are not seeking God (Rom. 10:21). How could anyone doubt that God is telling us the truth in these Scriptures? Rather than assigning nonbelievers to an eternal Hell fire, wouldn't it be better to tell them the truth of the Scriptures and give their people hope?

    Here is one question from the Theological Peanut Gallery:
    "Well if God is behind all the circumstances that cause men to sin, why does He blame us?" Don't say "If God ... " say "Since God ... " I'll let Paul answer:

    "Consequently, then, to whom He will, He is merciful, yet whom He will, He is hardening. You will be protesting to me, then, 'Why, then, is He still blaming? for who has withstood His intention?' O man! who are you, to be sure, who are answering again to God? That which is molded will not protest to the molder, 'Why do you make me thus?'" (Rom. 9:18-20).

    What do you have to say to this? God makes vessels of honor and He makes vessels of dishonor (Verse 21). Do you deny this? God is merciful to whom He wishes to be merciful and hardens those whom He does not wish to bless at this time. Do you deny this? If this is God's intention to do these things, who can ever "withstand His intention?" Paul uses extremely strong language when he says:

    "O man! Who are you, to be sure, who are answering again to God? That which is molded will not protest to the molder, 'Why do you make me thus?'"
    (Rom. 9:18-20).

    The reason that Christendom as a whole does not teach these plain declarations of Scripture is not because they never read these things, but because they don't APPROVE of God's operations! But just because most of mankind doesn't know God's operations, or doesn't believe God's operations, or doesn't approve of God's operations, it doesn't mean God isn't operating. And I assure you that God Almighty is not on trial before the ethical bar of men.

    It is God's will that "all be saved" (I Tim. 2:4) and "His will be done." But before God's will is done He has set man against His will. During this time of human stubbornness God is working out His plan according to His intention. And no one, absolutely no one has ever withstood or gone against God's "intention."

    King James has: " ... For who hath resisted his will?" The Greek word for "will" is thelo [decision, choice, or purpose]. But the Greek word in Rom. 9:19 is not thelo, but boulema [COUNSEL-effect]. "God is operating all according to the counsel [Gk:boule] of His will. No one has withstood this COUNSEL-effect, for sure. These two words are different and the Scriptures admonishes us to " ... be testing what things are of consequence [Gk: distinguish between things that 'differ']" (Phil. 1:10).

    I'm bored of this...I've proved it to mee...and now I have to prove it to you too?

    Your main points are...If I'm correct...

    Jesus wanted to be accepted but was rejected...

    Jesus was meant to start the Kingdom and start a sinless family...

    Jesus was meant to die...

    God isn't reponsible for the world...

    God didn't create Satan...

    Men have free-will...

    There is Hell...

    There may be more...Is there?

    Prove these directly (you staright forwardly)....Using Scripture...

    Even though I have already done this (including on this thread) I will prove ALL these to be wrong...Directly..Using as few quotes as possible...

    ...And I will prove my points...

    1)God and Jesus Christ don't change and never will change...

    2)God is Sovereign (knows and is responsible for everything)...

    3)There is no afterlife (no one goes to Heaven or Hell)...

    4)Christ was meant to be Crucified from the beginning...

    5)The Kingdom is to come AFTER the resurrection of the dead...

    6)God created Satan...

    7)There is no such thing as free-will (even though I have proof above)...

    and finally to most important...

    8)God will save EVERYONE...

    There are more but these are to most important...
  20. soleil10

    soleil10 Well-Known Member

    Dec 8, 2008
    Likes Received:
    Azure, Jesus was ignored and rejected starting by his own family, by John the Baptist who was given a vision from God, by the religious leaders of his time.
    You can play around with words as long as you want but the facts are very clear.

    Azure, you just do not make any sense. Your explanation is just crasy. You play with words to a point that it does not make any sense.
    The rest of your post is just of the same. You just take words and sentences out of context and come to conclusions that make no sense.

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