the origin of life and the universe

juantoo3 said:
From what I understand of the Medicine Wheel, the celestial references are more like the cardinal points...North, South, East and West. The number 4 does seem to figure prominently in their way of breaking things down, and they seem to reference back to these four, plus up and down. These are the six directions one would smudge with sage, for instance, with an additional "up", making a total of seven directions.

I'm sure that stars and constellations play a part in their way of looking at things, but I haven't seen the Medicine Wheel itself connected directly to stars or constellations. More like directions and seasons. But you may know something I don't...
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back to the astral elementally speaking! l did a medicine wheel workshop years ago where we had to visualise a journey to the underworld to meet the guardian [our own personalised one of course from our own imaginative stock of concepts], the drumming definitely evocative and enhancing the experience; heres the medicine wheel we used, yes cardinality again and the no.7 again!

N
14 spirit of animals
4 animals
18 dharma 19 higher self
8 karma 9 life energy
movement/choice
10 measure of all
intellect

W 2 earth
12 planets 20 Wakan 15 souls of all E 1 sun
with life Tanka humans 11 stars


5 humans

17 dream weavers 16 avatars
7 dreams 6 ancestors


S 3 plants
13 spirit of plants

7 dark arrows 7 white arrows

attachment / self awareness
dependencies/ self appreciation
judgement/ self acceptance
comparisons / self pleasure [life enhancing not indugence]
expectations/ self love
need for approval/ self actualisations
self importance/ impeccability [free from sins]
 
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I think that the schools primary focus should be on teaching pupils how to learn, how to figure things out, how to think critically and solve problems.
indeed, i agree that schools should be more focused on this, than just knowledge alone. that said they should not teach creationism as fact until it has been shown to be fact, so sure it is a valid comparative, but thats all.
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i saw a site on the net which connected the medicine wheel to the stars, just as the pyramids and stone circles are.
 
A good friend of ours is an elder in the Blackfoot nation and he also was a professor for a time in one of the universities here in native studies. He had mentioned this to me at one point (the medicine wheel being a celestial marker),but I will have to ask him to give me more details next time I visit with him.
 
yes l think it inconceivable that early man did not 'have a relationship' with the cosmos above through the millenia and why l have regard for astrology however popular or corrupted it may seem [l likewise appreciate the greek myths as as an adjunct narrative to the signs from which many were named and wonder about other ancient cultures concepts of them].

the medicine wheel didnt turn out like a circle like l wanted cos lm crap with computers.

north 4/14 south 3/13 west 2/12 east 1/11
north west 8/18 north east 9/19
south west 7/17 south east 6/16
= in the middle of wheel west wakan tanka /20
east souls of all humans/ 15
north measure of all intellect/ 10
south humans /5

so we are in the middle of the circle with the great spirit

which is similar to a celtic one :an eight fold ceremonial cycle of hunter gatherers [equinxes,solstices] and farmers [celtic quarter days].

the cardinal points of solstices and equinoxes [cardinal cross of N capricorn : winter solstice shortest daylight/ S cancer: summer solstice longest daylight: E aries equal day n night/ W libra equal day n night

NW samhain: earth festival [halloween,celtic new year,all souls,animals brought in for shelter] opposite SE Beltane :fire festival [1st May [dancing round poles] pregnancy fertility n flowers]

NE Imbolc: water festival [Feb 1st, ewes/milk ovulation fulfilled] opposite
SW Lugnasad : air festival Aug 1st [abundance, crops harvest, child born]

Children once past a certain age [the age of reason 7 again! 'give me a child till the age of 7 and l'll show you the man-Marx?] they forget the fairy tales and myths of old which hold much wisdom. l would like 'religious' education to encompass many paths towards greater human understanding, particularly with regard to 'mother earth'; l fear it is too late when you listen to whales.
 
an interesting post native, it makes sense about the calendars, and i think myths are a great way to teach, they add colour to an otherwise drab educational system. equally we can find other similar ways to info into little heads! as an example, my twin boys were uninterested in education when they were 7-8, then they played the game age of mythology, then got into reading the books and finding stuff out from the net etc, now they know more than their teacher about it lols. more than that, it leads to many other areas of questioning and hence makes knowledge interesting.

an interested mind learns more! this is why our ancestors taught by storytelling.
 
i havent watched it yet as my pc is very laggy, i’ll be getting a new one soon so i will watch it then. :)
 
back to creationism

btw here is another alternative theory of life, this is one based on the weirder side of druidry/shamanism...

you’ve heard of grey spirits [i call them silver spirits like the engyptians did], well life is literally these spirits, they arise from a primal darkness/emptiness, then they occupy any form conducive to life [can animate]. i can’t say anything else about them but their unbodied forms are on many a cave painting across the globe, apart from that one has to simply know them to know what i mean.
 
_Z_ said:
back to creationism

btw here is another alternative theory of life, this is one based on the weirder side of druidry/shamanism...

you’ve heard of grey spirits [i call them silver spirits like the engyptians did], well life is literally these spirits, they arise from a primal darkness/emptiness, then they occupy any form conducive to life [can animate]. i can’t say anything else about them but their unbodied forms are on many a cave painting across the globe, apart from that one has to simply know them to know what i mean.
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well, no,l googled grey spirit and other than grey goose vodka spirit got some weird sites, like

Jinn/ djinn/ jinns - UFO, alien, spirit, demon, ghost, Grey, poltergeist,
Ascended Master, Fairy, incubi, Men in Black, reptilian, nephilim, doppelganger, space brother, monster

and, UFOsRevealed
 
nativeastral said:
yes l think it inconceivable that early man did not 'have a relationship' with the cosmos above through the millenia and why l have regard for astrology however popular or corrupted it may seem...
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Inconceivable indeed. When we escape the glow of our towns and cities on a clear dark night how breathtaking the celestial lights become. We tend to forget that until only very recently the nightly spectacle of the blazing heavens was just about the only thing we could see once the sun went down. And how mysterious it would seem to all those people that could not know it as we know it. With lunar and solar eclipses, supernova events and sometimes catastrophic meteor storms mythologies were bound to flourish. But it was not till the age of the telescope that we really began to get some idea of its true majesty of scale.

I used to have a 2 thick volumes of the astrological ephemeris and learned to plot the changing positions of the planets through the zodiac. I even considered setting myself up as an astrologer, and with the integrity of a belief in its accuracy too. But the more peoples charts I did and the more I got to understand the way interpretations were constructed, the more doubt began to seep in. Doctors, cleaners, farmers, drivers,politicians, clergymen, saints and sinners alike are no more likely to belong to any one astrological house than any other. Astrology has absolutely no predictive ability what so ever. I wish it did. But it does have power over peoples imaginations. Even in the secular west where we saw large falls in church attendence we saw the purchase of astrological soothe-saying rise and celebrity astrologers get £million salaries. And we have the testimony of the customers who, having actively sought to part with their cash, then go on to extract a word here, or a word there, and stretch and strain to fit its meaning to subsequent events. And they manage easilly. Yet if the words had been different, or the wheel of time had created different events it would still work. It works in the mind. But that does not make it real and it is not real. In that I have as much certainty as I do that I will hit the post button before some firey thunderbolt from the gods prevents me.
 
we know nothing- really- what is really real? are your thoughts really real to you, or would agree that your thoughts, your beliefs,your reality would differ in another time another place another body? apart from other minds beaming back at you and the rest of the worlds 'realities' we make up our reality. perhaps unlike you l do not think we were born like a 'blank slate' but instead, in the DNA or more probably in some other 'form' however you 'conceive' it, we are imprinted or imbibed with certain tendencies to unfathom and transform, hence the need/want for religion, astrology, philosophy, and any other mode to 'know thyself', which the average animal does not seem to have the need for. Maybe we should just 'be' like an animal but that is not and has not been our destiny, has it?.

Personally l find synchronicities in astrology; as you know the permutations can be immense and yes you can interpret anything in anything such is the humans mind for narrative and subjective meaning. in my family we all have the moon in the 7th house- just a coincidence to you? [thats including the dog btw].

Rationality and objectivity goes a long way in understanding reality as an independent phenomenon, but l think there is always more than meets the eye; space is not 'empty' space and intent and meaning permeate the atmosphere to the point it is palpable to some more advanced in other senses. l think we all have 'it', but needs discovered/developed 'again'.

Like you l was well into astology at one point but it seems in this lifetime l do not want to wholesale conform/confirm to one set or system of belief, instead l 'cherry pick' as someone here mentioned; and why not? pick the best of the best for the best.

Are you saying you do not believe there is a transcendent reality? only what you can see feel and touch? we know nothing except the somethings we see feel and touch, and the intuitions we intuit at every moment of our experiential life. yes l am influenced by millenia of human thought 'forms' and stand by my regard for the oldest 'scientia' as it has been 'imprinted' as above so below.

'sow an act and you reap a habit, sow a habit and you reap a character, sow a character and you reap a destiny' c.reade 1814-1884

'be humble for you are of the earth, be noble, for you are of the stars' serbian proverb

'its never too late to be what you might have been' g.eliot

'our cells are constantly eavesdropping on our thoughts and being changed by them' d.chopra

'the basis of the astrologial sciences is the emanation,transmission and reception of energies, and their transmutation into forces by the receiving entity' a.bailey
 
Life starts as a question, like... "Should I pee?" or just, "Should I be?" If you can. Otherwise, I'm a nurse, I can help. Just lay there for a minute, and I'll be right back. Ya ever have a catheter before?
 
egyptians called the grey spirits ‘KHU’S’, try googling that. as i say they are something any initiate into the mysteries would come across, i see them in everything, and most cultures have them by different names.

hi tao,

firstly; do you think time is empty? if you don’t have characteristics of change by which things evolve to become cyclic then you just have a straight line ~ and hence no change at all and no existence.

Doctors, cleaners, farmers, drivers,politicians, clergymen, saints and sinners alike are no more likely to belong to any one astrological house than any other.
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of course not! if we go with astrology then it is a measure of time and archetype, everything would go by this to some degree. however different systems divide the cosmos in differing ways [e.g. 27 for vedic astrology and 12 for western], we could divide it into a sign for each day or on the other end of the scale not divide it at all and have a single archetype [or deity] for the whole cycle. when that cycle ends we can give the next cycle a different diety/archetype and eventually we would arrive at chinese astrology. then note that the same transformations occur on the yearly scale as the monthly, so eventually we have the same set for any kind of cycle.

back on track; each person would mirror the heavens with archetypes which build up their basic personality. when we consider the complexity of the human persona and that we all have the same archetypes ~ just in different arrangements, then why is it a surprise to find that e.g. a doctor can be of any sign? he would just utilise the same stuff in a different way, in fact given that a skill has its own particular manner then the act overrides any astrological differences, heart surgery has techniques that we would all use irrespective of our personalities.

Astrology has absolutely no predictive ability what so ever.
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it can predict behaviourisms by the cycles ~ vague at best. i think much of its apparent predictive abilities are purely intuitive, as i see it ancient astrologers were usually seers too and had many other tools at their disposal. we may break tarot down in a similar way and say that you could have any given set of anthropomorphic ideas, and do a reading that would be equally accurate. however the cards do match things that are going on in peoples lives, and they are usually quite specific. i had an italian christian friend test me on this, he had the lovers card and others which matched event going on in his life, point being that no other cards would have described that!
 
nativeastral said:
Are you saying you do not believe there is a transcendent reality? only what you can see feel and touch?
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Not a factually meaningful one, in the sense of an actual usable phenomena as opposed to mental meaningfulness. I believe there is some synchronicity and some telepathy. And that some animals do it way better than us. But there is a huge jump from that little understood set of phenomena to believing the position of Mars will predict difficult times or Venus whether or not your lover is faithful. The same goes for all the branches of divination. I would love to find these things did work, truly I would, but I have tested them extensively and decided that completely unproven.

I seem to share a similar outlook on life to you, I too cherry pick the best there is to offer and fit it into my jigsaw of (in)comprehension. And I try to be fair to each new idea I hear, and see how it fits into my current working model. I have none of the certainty of the believer, but I try to make sure that my doubts are tested. But I have been through the religions, the esoterica and the political and find them all flawed beyond hope. A millennia's old tangle of superstition, coercion and desperation with no meaningful basis to any of it. However there is poetry and literature, learning and the sciences. The former can explore the human condition through philosophy and metaphor, the latter through observation and repeatable experiment. And these experiments can be applied to the supernatural, have been, and have found zero effect. Again, and again, and again. Sometimes you have to concede to the facts.

There is so much we do not know. Like the DNA you mentioned I am with you 100% on that. We have only begun to just get a hint of the complexity of DNA, I have a feeling that it carries a lot, lot more information than was assumed before the genome project. It may even be that one day we will realise conciousness and memory is not just in the 'mind', its in our DNA too. A link I think relevant to just that:
The secret life of the brain - life - 05 November 2008 - New Scientist

I am also a bit of a supporter of aspects of Gaia theory. I do believe all life within Earth's biosphere is a single organism. It has seen several setbacks (mass-extinction events) and maybe evolved us because it learned it needed extreme adaptability to be able to do what any organism is driven to do - spread its seed. I am even willing to go as far as to say it has a kind of slow, dim conciousness into which we can very superficially tap. I am not entirely convinced but it would explain some things that are happening. And again that above links content could be important in understanding all that. The bacteria and viruses in our gut are vital for our survival yet we are not consciously aware of them. I see no reason why Gaia's awareness of us would be any different.
 
I don't know where God came from, maybe I'll ask him when I meet him. That'd be a good ice breaker, huh. As for the universe, and the earth along with it I can't believe there is such a big argument between evolution and creationism.

Why not both? I don't mean the 'on the first day' shpeel from the bible. It's always the bible causing problems, well not it in actuality, the people that are interpreting it...

Anywho, who's to say that God didn't create the universe, by just throwing it all out there and leting it unfold according to plan. I see no reason that it'd be so tough for him that he would have to split it into parts, and days. God rocks like that.

He planted the seeds on earth, to use a metaphore, and let them grow and change according to his plan.

That's my take on it. It makes as much sense as any.

Thanks 4 reading.

See ya!
 
immortalitylost said:
I don't know where God came from, maybe I'll ask him when I meet him. That'd be a good ice breaker, huh. As for the universe, and the earth along with it I can't believe there is such a big argument between evolution and creationism.

Why not both? I don't mean the 'on the first day' shpeel from the bible. It's always the bible causing problems, well not it in actuality, the people that are interpreting it...

Anywho, who's to say that God didn't create the universe, by just throwing it all out there and leting it unfold according to plan. I see no reason that it'd be so tough for him that he would have to split it into parts, and days. God rocks like that.

He planted the seeds on earth, to use a metaphore, and let them grow and change according to his plan.

That's my take on it. It makes as much sense as any.

Thanks 4 reading.

See ya!
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Hi and welcome to the forum :)

The explanation above is as good and as meaningless as any. All the problems really arise when ignorant self-important ego starts saying "this is the truth", and the abrahamics do this in spades. Even if there is a creator that threw down some seed that created our universe it begs the question what is its universe like? I think its utter naivety and intellectual cowardice to say that such an entity exists as a solitary thing jailed within itself, as many religious people would paint it. The truth is such questions are beyond us. If we reduce the scale by an order of magnitude stretching into the billions and look at ourselves as universes for the kilos of bacteria we are host to then you get some idea how ridiculous it is to think that you have a personal relationship with god. Truth is that it is a personal relationship with a delusion. It is all fantasy. A fantasy that is encouraged by all socities for reasons that have nothing to do with some creative entity.
 
well if a Creator was truly limitless, and not jailed within it'self it woild be fairly easy for it to have a personal relationship with all of it's creations, even the kilo's of bacteria that we all are host to.

I'm still trying to figure out if I've been dissed or not...

Like I said though, I don't know. I'm not trying to say that I do. I believe that there is a god, in fact science and it's quantifiable laws and the way that everything in this universe is able to just work so stupendously in sync with everything around it has led me to believe in God. And right now, scientists the world over cringe... lol. But there it is.

Thank you muchly for your welcome!
 
I may be reinterating another person's ideas, but for once I don't have the time to read the 8 pages preceding this.

I just wanted to toss the idea out there that creation/origin myths aren't meant to really be about creation. Their meanings typically are more about humans' place in the cosmos/world and how we should relate to each other and other beings than it is for the purpose of explanation (as scientific theory would be). Therefore, I can find meaning in any creation myth that I read, but I don't think any of them are particularly good for explaining what actually happened.

I think the physical processes are best described by scientific ideas, but of course at this point we can't/don't really know, so it is all hypotheses. So far my favorites are the idea that Big Bangs occur when membranes touch (from string theory). I also find interesting the idea that our entire universe is actually within the event horizon of a really big black hole.

Overall, the closest I can come to uniting my experience of the Divine with ideas about the origins of life and universe is just to point people toward the fly-throughs of the Mendelbrot set. I can't describe my thought better than seeing that. It's along the lines of saying that when we approach the Divine from our limited human perspective, we anthropomorphise "God" and thus we have ideas about "creation" as if it is an event, an activity that God "does." I don't think so. I think God/the Divine/whatever is the process of creativity itself. So it isn't that the multiverse, universe, life or whatever is created but rather that there is an unfolding, a manifesting, of creativity and this is part of how we can experience the Divine.
 
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