Pyramids of Giza

Discussion in 'Ancient History and Mythology' started by juantoo3, Jun 9, 2004.

  1. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    ? about the Great Pyramid...

    Kindest Regards to all!

    I have a puzzle perhaps some could help with.

    I borrowed a current humanities textbook from a friend to find some information about the Great Pyramid at Giza and the socio-cultural events surrounding it, in effect looking at a snap-shot of human cultural evolution.

    Concerning the Pyramid, I often hear of the wonderful intricacy, the detail, the obstacles to overcome, how it would still be impossible to recreate even with today's technology, the esoteric meanings hidden in the form and placement, etc. All of this implies a great deal of knowledge and forethought, and experience, which is fine.

    That is, until one places it in context with other socio-cultural events.

    The text places the construction of the Great Pyramid between the years 2530-2470 B.C. Apparently this is within the time commonly ascribed as "Neolithic" (New Stone Age). Bronze had only recently (500 years previously) been developed by the addition of tin to copper about 3000 B.C. in Mesopotamia. The text is unclear as to whether or not Egypt had and used bronze implements around the time of pyramid construction, stating later that is was not until 1674 B.C. when the Hyksos invaded northern Egypt, that bronze (in the form of weapons) was introduced along with horse-drawn chariots. Iron was not introduced until much later still.

    By 3000 B.C. Egypt had well-developed agriculture with irrigation, and hieroglyphic writing. At about the same time the pyramid was being built, the Great Sphinx was begun and papyrus was introduced.

    To keep things in context, the Mesopotamian cultures had their fair share of technological breakthroughs and marvels by this time as well, but the Great Pyramid has always stood as such a shining example of what man can do...

    Yet we can't do the same today?

    Was there some quantum leap in rational ability amongst humanity somewhere between 9000-3000 B.C.? A leap that, truth be told, is beyond us now? Have we somehow regressed in our mental capacities and capabilities? The text mentions the pyramid being constructed of limestone and granite. How did a people, however brilliant, carve granite without metal implements, or at best copper implements? I also seem to recall the outer casing being of marble. It is one thing to focus on the transportation and heavy lifting issues, remarkable in themselves. But how could these megaliths be carved at quarry to within acutely accurate and fine tolerances unmatched for millennia without metal carving tools? If the only metallurgy available to Egypt at the time was copper, the carving of stone would be pretty limited I would think, including harder forms of limestone. In effect, are we to believe stone age humans built what we know as the Pyramid?

    Obviously the project was accomplished, and stands as testimony to this day. But there are far more questions it raises than it answers. Or so it seems, to me.

    Any thoughts?
     
  2. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Staff Member

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    Re: ? about the Great Pyramid...

    My impression is atually that Giza pyramids were built in the Old Kingdon, rather than Pre-Pharaonic Neolithic - and that bronze was available, with the Hittites and co. bringing iron into the equation around 1500 BC.

    As for the care taken in building them - people often assume that our distant forebears, because they lacked our technological achievements, were therefore stupid. Really, it's a general insult on humanity - we got here precisely because we are a routinely innovative species. The fact that ancient peoples were routinely innovative should therefore come as no surprise. :)

    The big question regarding the Giza pyramids is the why - there is extremely little contemporary writing on the subject of the pyramids, and there are extant engravings from the period of building, if I remember right - with later persons making their marks in the old tunnels after.

    However, on the issue of why an entire people should mobilise themselves into such a massive project - I seem to recall that there was a serious change in the weather patterns over North Africa around 3,000 BC - Libya and Western Egypt turned from grassland to desert, and the rains went area. My personal theory is that this was the defining reason why the Nile civilisation effectively developed into Egypt. However, the weather changes were not consistent - there was not simply drought, but also periods of storm - the sphinx owes extensive weathering no to acid rain or wind erosion, but to water erosion - all before 2,000 BC passed. So, overall, I'm left to wonder if there wasn;t something of an apocalyptic quality to the Old Kingdom mindset, that saw the people - at least the Pharaohs - let go of more earthly dreams and instead looked for further goals. In short, they spiritually abandoned the dangerous earth and instead looked to the stars for their salvation. Just personl thought, though. :)
     
  3. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Staff Member

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    Re: ? about the Great Pyramid...

    PS - I took the liberty of splitting this topic from the previous thread. :)
     
  4. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Re: ? about the Great Pyramid...

    Kindest Regards, Brian! and thank you for the response!
    Yes, the text shows the Giza pyramids being built during the Old Kingdom, which is contemporaneous with the Neolithic. If one gives 2500 BC as a round date for the pyramid, the Neolithic doesn't end for another 500 years; 2000 BC +/-. I apparently overlooked earlier where the text does imply the use of bronze by that early date, but it contradicts itself with the other passage pertaining to the Hyksos, unless during one of the "Intermediate" periods the use of bronze was temporarily lost, a possibility not emphatically stated.

    Oh, absolutely agreed. BTW, I have no issues whatsoever with you moving this thread here ;), but that was actually my intent behind this original post, to attempt to demonstrate the abilities of "ancient" humans that are not commonly ascribed. And that was why I had posted where I did. Actually, this helps serve to demonstrate how interconnected these subjects such as religion, politics and culture become at deeper levels.

    Yes, the how's are intriguing, but I seldom hear of the why's, other than the symbolic mathematics. I would love to hear of any info you are familiar with.

    The text is not forthcoming about the weather issue directly in Egypt, although it does mention a major flood in Mesopotamia about 2900 BC. Although *1159 B.C.: Major Weather anomaly, no summer growth from 1159 B.C. to 1147 B.C. This apparently coincided with the fall of Troy, the collapse of Mycenae, the fall of the Shan Dynasty in China and the collapse of Egypt. This anomaly is conjectured to have been worldwide -according to Richard Warner, archeologist, who further postulated that this would create food shortages, which would encourage warlike activities. Irish History (In Search of Ancient Ireland, PBS, aired June 2002)* I seem to recall this being ascertained by tree ring data. It was also claimed that these weather anomalies happened every so often, so one from around 2500 BC would be very possible.

    Thank you most sincerely, hopefully this thread can continue in an effort to bring forth matters such as the ancient city beneath the ocean off of Bimini, and early European and Polynesian influences and artifacts found in the New World long before Columbus.

    PS, did you hear of the lastest ice core sample from Antarctica? It supposedly goes back on the order of 740,000 years! It will be interesting to hear the results.
     
  5. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Staff Member

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    Re: ? about the Great Pyramid...

    Ahh! Typo:

    should read as:

    As for the topic - it certainly is very interesting. :)

    I think I've heard of this "worldwide disaster" theory - and we've certainly seen how weather patterns can have a wider affectn on the earth - for example, El Nino. However, I'm not yet convinced that there are a series of events that can be held to be so cleanly in association - meaning, that we have a habit of looking for single answers, when in fact more than one answer may be applicable.

    It is all very intriguing, though. :)
     
  6. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Re: ? about the Great Pyramid...

    Kindest Regards, Brian!

    Thank you for the correction, even if it keeps certain questions a mystery.

    Yes. El Nino is one aspect to consider, now that we are aware of it and its impact. Of course, other things to consider are the after effects of major volcanic activity, inordinate sunspot activity (or lack thereof, like the Maunder minimum), possible meteoric activity, reversal of the magnetic poles and others I am sure.

    I realize humanity had its share of religious endeavor by the time of the Old Kingdom in Egypt, but I am curious just the same. Since you seem to hold a bit of knowledge on the subject, certainly more than I, I would be interested to hear your take as to why the Old Kingdom Pharaohs and priests would turn their attention from the natural wonders immediately around them and direct that attention towards the stars. I seem to recall somewhere implying that the three major pyramids are laid out not in a straight line in respect to one another, but rather slightly askew, and a comparison was then made with the 3 stars forming the belt of Orion. Not having been to see the pyramids, nor having access to topographical maps of the area, I do not know if this assessment holds any merit. In light of your comment however, I am reminded of it.

    It is intriguing. As far as I know, this would seem to be the oldest recorded direct association religiously with what could be termed "heaven." My understanding is that previously "religion" focused on the forces inherent in nature. An interesting paradox, why turn to heaven if no previous awareness of heaven; or if awareness of heaven already existed, then why the emphasis on natural forces; and what made humans aware of any of these things (heaven and natural forces) to begin with? Presumably awareness of nature could be drawn from close interaction with it on a daily basis, maybe. But by the time of the Old Kingdom, at least in Egypt, Mesopotamia and a few other places, civilization had already developed to a point of removing man from the intimate interaction with nature. Would not city dwelling create a buffer between humans and nature, physically and psychologically (and perhaps spiritually)? Over the course of a few generations, much natural intimacy would be lost, I would think, at least among the general populace.

    Just some thoughts.

    Do you have any familiarity with the ruins in the waters off of Bimini? My first exposure was a Jacques Cousteau special in the late '70's, since then I believe Charles Berlitz wrote a book concerning them. Most of what I found on the net to this point has not been very helpful. I remember quite vividly a temple ruin not unlike what might be found in Greece or Rome, underwater, in the islands off of Florida. I hope one day to have the pleasure of seeing this with my own eyes.
     
  7. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Staff Member

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    Re: ? about the Great Pyramid...

    Certainly the whole star issue is interestng, though speculation - I personally think the really big clues are that the small shafts from ther burial hambers themselves appear directly aimed at specific stars. Truly fascinatnig. :)

    I've seen reference to the rocks off Bimini, and seen them covered. I have to admit that the general argument that they are natural rock formations seemed the more favourable when I last read on the subject.

    There is certainly room for sunken settlements to be discovered, but, unfortunately, a lot of the serious archaeology of this gets muddled with some rather exceptional specualtion on the nature of Atlantis. Hm...new thread topic there. :)
     
  8. IlluSionS667

    IlluSionS667 Eurasian spiritualist

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    Re: ? about the Great Pyramid...

    There are enough reasons to assume that the history of mankind is much older than it seems to be, but was practically destroyed by the great cataclysm at the end of the last so-called ice age. Whatever happened between that desaster and 3000 BC is something we can only guess about.
     
  9. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Re: ? about the Great Pyramid...

    Kindest Regards, IlluSionS667!
    Yes, I have seen references to many things, not least the cave paintings at Lasceaux and others, that support early human social development long before the contemporary historical age. I vaguely recall a South American tradition (I want to say Aztec, or possibly Inca) that holds that the earth and human civilization was destroyed several consecutive times (7?), by fire and flood. That book was not mine, and I haven't pursued it further, but I thought it intriguing.

    I would be happy to see what it is you are speaking of.
     
  10. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Staff Member

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  11. IlluSionS667

    IlluSionS667 Eurasian spiritualist

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  12. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

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    Just some musings:

    Sadly, most egyptologists still cling tenaciously to an undefensible - and imho completely inaccurate - position regarding the age of the Giza pyramids and the Great Sphinx. While the very purpose for these structures is still quite debatable and probably unknowable (except to high initiates), we can at least begin to get some understanding if we relinquish the false notions that the Giza pyramids were built as tombs. No evidence to support this latter position has ever been produced. Instead, as the work of Graham Hancock, Robert Bauval, John Anthony West, Moustafa Gadalla (each has his own website - please reference Google) and many others has demonstrated, the Giza pyramids are constructed with amazing precision, careful star alignments, and according to an esoteric worldview wherein the Earth reflects the Heavens (and vice versa) - `As above, so below' (thank you, Thoth-Hermes).

    Conservative estimates place the construction of the Sphinx and pyramids some 12 or 12 1/2 thousand years ago ... although Theosophical sources suggest as much as 36 thousand. To understand this it is necessary to study the precession of the equinoxes over a 26,000 year cycle, divisible by the 12 signs of the zodiac to form eras or ages lasting approx. 2167 years each (very rough estimate). Hence we have Pisces, Aquarius, Capricorn looking forward, or Aries, Taurus, Gemini, Cancer, Leo looking in reverse
    chronological order from the time of Christ. The latter consideration places the beginning of the Era of Leo around 10,835BCE (just a rough estimate), and gee whiz, that Sphinx thing sure looks a lot like a Lion. ;) (Before this, the previous Age of Leo would have been - hmmm, about 37,000BCE.) And remember, this is accepted astronomy - not astrological mumbo-jumbo.

    Plato's account of the sinking of Poseidonis (not Atlantis, but rather the last remant thereof, in the form of but one small island in the Atlantic) mentions the year 9564BCE - exactly. As evidence plainly indicates, the Great Sphinx (and the pyramids) show signs of significant water erosion ... and geologically, practically speaking this could only have occurred during the last (minor) ice age (glacial melting) - which science points to around 10,500BCE (or somewhere in there).

    Hmmm, I'm seeing some things come together here, but egyptologists - such as Zahi Hawass - have too much pride in their own egos and discoveries, in their fellow countrymen, and in the more established model of egyptian history, pyramid-building, spirituality, etc. This is a shame, because the paradigm or worldview that is being presented (with more scientific evidence than ever to support it) restores dignity and meaning to Humanity (to our collective Human spirit) that has been lost over time, mostly due to the manipulations & distortions on the part of biased historians and a power-hungry clergy. With such tragedies as the burning of the Library at Alexandria by Aurelian, and its final destruction by "Christian" fanatics ... much of the historical evidence that would absolutely flatten the commonly accepted theories regarding ancient Egypt - and human history as a whole - was lost forever.

    While all this may be cause for lamentation, there is far more cause for celebration and rejoicing ... because inevitably, Truth shall triumph! If we don't kill ourselves off, we will surely discover - and soon enough - that the culture of ancient Egypt (thousands of years even before Akhenaton) was glorious beyond our wildest imaginings, and yet it was only a pale echo of the wonders of Atlantis. Modern students of Esotericism (recent presentations of the Ageless Wisdom) are familiar with the notion that along with the objective Reappearance of the Christ (an idea & figure familiar not only to Xians, but also common to every major religion) will also come the Restoration of the Mysteries. Forums such as this one and countless others, plus ongoing ecumenical work in the world for well over 100 years, bear witness to this truth. Refusal to recap the Great Pyramid (with several significant symbolical connotations), or to further explore various hidden chambers & passages within the Great Pyramid & beneath/in front of the Sphinx, only stand out as symbolic actions themselves of the resistance still being expressed ... to a monumental event & stage in our history for which we are otherwise essentially ready. How long must we wait?
    Andrew
     
  13. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Staff Member

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    The general model is that of desertification of the Sahara not occuring until around 3,000 BC, so there was ample opportunity for water erosion before then.
     
  14. alexa

    alexa somewhere in time

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    I wonder how could I miss this thread before. I had promised to myself that one day, I'll walk inside of those pyramids. I had a strange dream years ago. I dreamt I was inside a pyramid ( I don't know which one) and I was admiring very interesting pictures on the walls. I could see the colors of those pictures, so I suppose I had one of those color dreams. Well, I surely want to see if my dream was only a dream.

    Kings from the Old Kingdom thought they were sons of Ra and people were behaving like they really were sons of Gods. I was under the impression pyramids were builded as tombs for their kings. The afterlife was more important for the ancient egyptiptians, than their life. Each of the Giza pyramids has a mortuary temple. So, why not consider them as tombs ? Huge and out of common in our eyes, I agree, but still tombs for those who believed to be gods.

    The King's chamber in the Great Pyramid :
     

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  15. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    Re: ? about the Great Pyramid...

    Sup Juan,

    Yeah the pyramid 'thing' always baffles me. It was an amazing accomplishment, I know this sounds insane, and from what evidence we have that still stands today shows and prooves it was built stone by stone. But, another theory which would have taken a load of time too, couldn't they have had just one massive stone sitting in the middle and they simply carved it down to a pyramid? lol.... Thinking out of the box..... Oh yeah.

    Another thing Not sure if anyone has mentioned it, I am to lazy to look back.. It is odd that they are lined exactly in the same postion as orions belt... ;\ hmmmm So could they have acted more than just tombs? Maybe a gate could be opened... For example to the stars... We shall call it... *ponders* StarGate.... ¬.¬ WHAT?!

    [​IMG]

    I find it weird that directly inline with the tip of the pyramid, and these people we're a very precise race. There is an empty chamber, and it is lowest... I would have thought you would have placed the pharoh there.... Some say it was to perhaps fool tomb raiders... But hmmm Something about that.
     
  16. taijasi

    taijasi Gnōthi seauton

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    17th, isn't that neat. The arrangement isn't just *like* the belt stars of Orion, it is PRECISE. Bauval and Hancock are the folks who I've heard the most from along these lines. You can google them and find their sites, and read for days.

    John Anthony West, and Robert Schoch, also talk a lot about the Sphinx and the Pyramids, and even though they work together, their opinions are slightly different. Schoch is the more scientifically inclined, as I recall, but his views are still highly unconventional.

    If *any* of the larger pyramids (with one exception, as I recall, somewhere other than Giza) were intended as tombs, then why is it that the kings, corpses, bodies, mummies, or in fact, any shred of evidence that they ever *occupied* these tombs ... is strangely lacking? ;)

    There is a sarcophagus-looking structure inside the Great Pyramid, but the Initiatic tradition of ancient Egypt, the Mystery Tradition, speaks plainly about its use. The candidate for Initiation was placed within this sarcophagus, and left there for 3 days, while his soul entered the spiritual realms, descended into Amenti (`Hell,' the Underworld), and also sought to provide healing or spiritual assistance to those in need.

    On the 3rd day, the body was brought to the gallery entrance where it was met with the beams of the rising Sun, implications of Rebirth or Spiritual Resurrection being rather obvious - since this is what the Sun has always symbolized to the Egyptians. This tradition, dating back many thousands of years, can be found in other cultures as well, since certainly we know that other civilizations - notably the MAYANS - built pyramids, and also worshipped a SUN-GOD.

    But look for pyramids, and they can be found in more places than just Giza and South America.

    Getting back to the stars of Orion's Belt, the Nile River, as I understand it, was also meant to reflect something in the heavens ... the Milky Way! This would mean that the placement of the pyramids had *everything* to do with proximity to the Nile. I seem to recall that along these lines, one can also map other great Egyptian cities, or possibly pyramids/Temples, to the prominent stars in the constellation Orion (shoulders, knees, etc.). If so, I think we can begin to start taking the *unconventional* view a bit more seriously. I mean, at what point is the accumulated evidence "enough?"
     
  17. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    just an aside...if you google earth sphynx you'll see that Cairo's suburbs have now come right up to the gate...pretty interesting...by the time I get over there Disney will probably have built some amusement park next door and I'll see Giza and the Sphinx from the top of a roller coaster....
     
  18. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    Heh, hear you...

    Whats the most interesting experience you have had in macdonalds? Mine? Eating a big mac looking out of the buildings window and admiring the great pyramid...
     
  19. China Cat Sunflower

    China Cat Sunflower Nimrod

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    There's a secret chamber at the bottom of the great pyramid where they used to keep all the king's beer. Scientists have calculated that it would hold 36,000 eighteen packs of Budweiser.

    Chris
     
  20. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    And where did you get the source to that?
     

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