Let's clear the air...

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by wil, Apr 13, 2009.

  1. Bandit

    Bandit New Member

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    They did not forget. They are just very aware, more aware of the baggage that comes with it than americans are.
     
  2. Bandit

    Bandit New Member

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    I was thinking the same thing.
     
  3. Avi

    Avi Interfaith Forums

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    Um, Marsh, somehow I think you might be kidding around. But anyway, that is the sort of feedback I was asking for.

    Bandit, I admire your directness. But I do not agree with you.

    In fact, I am wondering, what lessons did Europe learn from WWII ? Since there are many Europeans in this forum, perhaps they can share some of their ideas ?

    I will be glad to start with some of my ideas. The European enlightenment (18th century) was a remarkable time in Europe. Here are some of the advances during this period:


    self-governance, natural rights, natural law, central emphasis on liberty, individual rights, reason, common sense, and the principles of deism”.

    Some of the great thinkers: Kant, Leibnitz, Voltaire, Rousseau, Hume, Leibnitz, Locke, Paine, Adam Smith, Ben Franklin, Mendalsohn.

    What an amazing time. These great thinkers led to opportunities in Europe that were never before seen in history. Personal freedom, liberty, freedom of thought, religion, culture.


    So one question I have is, how could only two centuries later, in the 20th century, could Nazi German have come into existance. ? I know that entire books have been written about this, but would l just like some of your thoughts.

    Also, since the time of WWII, have there really been any important lessons learned ? Could there be another world war in Europe ?
    Since this is an interfaith environment, does religion (for better or worse) play a role in answering this question?

    Ref: Age of Enlightenment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
  4. Bandit

    Bandit New Member

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    So, your question is designed looking for specific feedback. Got it.

    I know quite a few people who come back from vacation in Europe only to say how cold europe treats americans, so jews are not alone. I can't help but see a connection between the two. As an American I actually have a European view on this so of course you would disagree. I doubt very many people would bounce people out like that who they view are not causing and have not caused problems, after all the US is the most hated country in the world right now. What part do you not agree with? The part that Americans don't know any better yet because they have not dealt with the destruction and daily bomb attacks and Europeans do know what it is like?

    Perhaps it has to do with current events also, and not just the past.
     
  5. Tao_Equus

    Tao_Equus Interfaith Forums

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    There is a consortium of power in the US that has its political manifestation in the Republican Party and its financial in the Rockefeller Foundation, Chase Manhattan and several other top players in American banking and industry. For over a century this group has carefully planned and executed countless wars including the rise of the the Third Reich. Indeed Prescot Bush, W's grandfather, was heavily involved with his associate in Weimar Gemany, Fritz Thysen in promoting and financing the early Nazi party. But like Saddam Hussein their puppet Adolf Hitler was quite uncontrolable and snatched the strings from the puppeteers grasp. Regardless the American consortium continued to fund the Nazi war machine, the Luftwaffe for example was 100% reliant on American supplied fuel additives, and the base metals required for the Nazi war machine were all brokered, usually via Swedish intermediates, to the profit of several of the key players in American Industry. America did not enter the war until agreements with the Brits to relinquish control of its Empires claims on vast deposits of oil and gas in the middle east had been agreed. And then a nation that had been a close ideological ally and trading partner to the industrial cartel, Japan, right on cue gave the excuse to enter the war. So before you blame Europe, have a look at the real history and then look how the same dynasty is still carrying out the same policy to this day.

    Not in America. There it is still a sick, diseased notion of patriotism and greed that blinds the US as a whole to the despair their nation foists on the world.
     
  6. Marsh

    Marsh Disagreeable By Nature

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    A few nasties around here too, it seems. :)

    No, the statement was in reference to the idea that one's own opinion is always as valid as somebody else's, even if that "somebody else" has devoted their entire life to a field of study, whereas your own knowledge is limited to what's available on Wikipedia. Obviously, everybody is entitled to their own opinion, but that doesn't mean everybody's opinion on every subject is equally intelligent, and pretending so just seems silly to me.
     
  7. Marsh

    Marsh Disagreeable By Nature

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    I wouldn't know. I'm not American.

    By the way, Europeans also have no sense of humour!
     
  8. Bandit

    Bandit New Member

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    No. it was making an ignorant comparison between religion and the medical field and that a religious unproven belief is equally as valid as a doctors opinion. That is what is silly.
     
  9. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    Namaste Bandit,

    I propose that everything we know now about medicine will be darn near wrong compared to what we know 100 years from now. They'll be looking back increduously and not believe what was taught in Universities. Just like we do about 100 year ago medicine and they did 100 years ago about 100 years prior.

    Interestingly enough....religions will probably still be quite similar 500 years from now we'll be having similar discussions to what is discussed on this forum...what is myth vs. what is 'scriptural truth' just as it was 500 years ago, and 500 years before that.
     
  10. Will be

    Will be New Member

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    2010, 2011, 2012...
     
  11. Bandit

    Bandit New Member

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    That doesn't say a lot for religion and I am not putting my hope in any of it.
    I would expect medicine to advance and change for the better, but not religion.
     
  12. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    love the way your brain works, however those end is near beliefs willl be revamped as the time passes...they always do...except Jonestown, those that jumped on the comet and the like...
    Actually it does, to me. The myths have an energy and truth that transcends generations. They have a hold on the literalists and the metaphysciians...and everything in between...for a reason...to continue the belief and continue to allow people to hold the faith.

    I know you discount the organized religions, but you don't discount the books now do you?
     
  13. Bandit

    Bandit New Member

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    I would never compare religion as in popes & rabbis to doctors and scientists as other people here do. I think the books are something that people carry under their arm for various reasons and not very often to do good but to harm others as in a bloody sword, you know... including an obesession, and mostly used to start war, used for mass control, needling and arguments with each other.

    I do feel that if the organized religions did not exist with their own taught bias/dogma then people would be in more harmony as they approached it on their own. It is kind of hard to imagine there being as many contradictions as there are religions/sects from one passage and yet it is that screwy and mind warping. As we know, anyone can make the book(s) mean anything they want it to mean and you can create any version, any imagination, any religion, add, delete, edit, and change definitions as one wishes.
     
  14. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    so value or no value in the books to you?
     
  15. Bandit

    Bandit New Member

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    To me, I would say it has value and is also no value, depending on who is carrying it. What happens between me and the book, if you are asking a personal question, stays between me and the book. I found it wise to do so.
     
  16. Avi

    Avi Interfaith Forums

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    It sounds like you are not the biggest fan of the US :). But you didn’t answer my question. I think a good analogy here is that Germany is like the smartest kid in the class during the early 20th century. During the European Enlightenment she convinced the teacher that she is gentle and kind. So it is like when the teacher walks in into the classroom and finds her favorite student beating the life out of another kid. Of course you can blame the US for her imperialist ways. But I think that is an oversimplification. Doesn’t Europe have to bear responsiblity for her genocide ? Doesn't Europe have a history of genocide of its own inhabitants ? Why does Europe have this history of intolerance ? Is Europe still intolerant ? Will there be additional riots of the Muslim community like there were in France last year ? What will it take for Europe to become tolerant ? What are the indicators that we should look for ?

    I am still new to this forum, but what seems very interesting to me is that there is an nice mix between Europeans and Americans. This makes for a nice opportunity to share our views on international issues as well. This is particularly intersting from an interfaith perspective.
     
  17. Tao_Equus

    Tao_Equus Interfaith Forums

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    Its complicated. I certainly get very frustrated at its arrogance and hypocrisy. At the misery and death it exports around the world. But I am equally disappointed in my own country as ass licker in chief to the US.

    Germany was deeply humiliated following WW1 and suffered an economic collapse that sustained that humiliation. The Nationalism that took hold played to that chagrin. As for the US, its ruling class is overwhelmingly European. In Europe today we see immigration, esp by Muslims, as threatening our standards of freedom and our secular concepts of inclusion. Europe has been the most tolerant area of the planet for 50+ years but I think there will be a new battle in Europe against the spread of Islam within its borders but I hope it will be an intellectual one.
     
  18. Will be

    Will be New Member

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    Of being free when losing me
    above the ground, a cloudy tree.
     
  19. Avi

    Avi Interfaith Forums

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    I agree with your observations about Germany post WWI.

    I see two events in the last 4 years as critical and give insight into some of the issues which I think will be playing a much greater role in Europe in the years to come. They are the riots in France in 2005 and Greece in 2008.

    I would be interested in learning the perspectives of the European posters in this forum about these riots ? Will there be more of these riots in years to come ? What were the main reasons for them ?

    It seems to me that there are still deep divisions in Europe with respect to class, race, economic status and education. Do Europeans know how to deal with this disparateness ?
     
  20. nativeastral

    nativeastral fluffy future

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    EEC standardisation knee jerk allergic reaction and job scarcities [migrants willing to work minimal wages and extortianate hours and willing to pay high rents cos they all squash in together].
     

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