Angels and DarkAngels

Discussion in 'Esoteric' started by Snugglepuff, Jun 13, 2009.

  1. Snugglepuff

    Snugglepuff Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2009
    Messages:
    105
    Likes Received:
    0
    Lol... I hope someone got that play on words...

    OK, so, I wanted to discuss something that generally I find quite interesting. Mainly because there is a huge plethra of opinion on the subject. I've asked Satanists, Pagans, Wiccans etc... they all come up with different answers.

    Originally, when I was younger, I believed that all angels were good. Bright, shining beacons doing God's work. Of course, if we look at the OT in the Bible, the Angels weren't as pure white as we'd like to imagine - raining down sulphur and such [mmmm....eggy! :p]. But generally, beautiful creatures, spreading God's word.

    I think later on in time they became more as a sign of protection. This is the idea I became familiar with. I even have an interesting book on angel 'encounters'. A woman doing her pHd into researching whether people believed in angels and why... she includes scientific data based on the replies she received and accounts from her willing applicants. Most of the letters starting off with "I'm not crazy, nor has there ever been any history of mental illness in my family..."

    Having taken a path change however, I got to discussing this with a person who has a very different look on life. He suggested that maybe not all angels are good, maybe some of them are bad.... some of them could be neutral.

    I feel as if the latter is more likely, to be honest. Some are there to protect, others might have their own personal agenda.

    Of course, it all depends on whether you think they exist or not... I am not sure myself (still trying to find my path if I have one) but when I did have a connection with what I believed to be my guardian angel, I had mixed feelings.

    I am interested to hear other people's thoughts on this as it's not something that is really discussed. I hope the conversation is not dismissed...
     
  2. GlorytoGod

    GlorytoGod There is a River

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2008
    Messages:
    943
    Likes Received:
    0
    according to the Bible about 1/2 the Angels sided with satan and were kicked out of heaven these angels are now known as demons

    so yeah not all Angels are good satan has a whole bunch of bad angels.
     
  3. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Messages:
    9,437
    Likes Received:
    3
    Satan was an angel :) He's mai favourtiest of teh angals!
     
  4. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Admin

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2003
    Messages:
    6,532
    Likes Received:
    10
    The concept of angels has certainly evolved over time, from being a direct messenger from God in Judaism, to becoming more of a kind of "personal spirit" in New Age thinking.

    It does actually make it hard to understand what "angels" means anymore.
     
  5. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Messages:
    9,437
    Likes Received:
    3
    Also E.T's are classed to some as angels Brian.
     
  6. Snugglepuff

    Snugglepuff Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2009
    Messages:
    105
    Likes Received:
    0
    I wasn't quite referring to Lucifer and his 'demons'. It was more about angels from a neutral perspective... sort of looking at them as neither good nor evil kind of thing... :D
     
  7. Dream

    Dream Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2008
    Messages:
    3,677
    Likes Received:
    1
    Angels are like something between past & future, like the 'Present'. If you really want to know what 'Now' is, you're at a loss because all you can know is the past not the present or future. You might even guess the future, but the Present is elusive, totally out of our control. The present may even be just an idea that we have to help us keep from panicking. Angels are like that, too. Does that help? :p
     
  8. GlorytoGod

    GlorytoGod There is a River

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2008
    Messages:
    943
    Likes Received:
    0
    as far as I know the Bible is the best authority we have regarding Angels, so take it or leave it, up to you :eek:

    and in your own words

    :eek:
     
  9. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Messages:
    9,437
    Likes Received:
    3
    I love how people attempt to use opinion as fact lol.
     
  10. shawn

    shawn Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2007
    Messages:
    2,085
    Likes Received:
    0
    All the old references to "angels" were to beings who came from places ordinary people couldn't go (like from under the ocean, appear from thin air, from a glowing chariot coming down from the heavens, etc) and they had, at times, attributes which were not human.
    Lots of people speculate that these beings were extra-terrestrial visitors of some sort, which is plausible IMO.
     
  11. path_of_one

    path_of_one Embracing the Mystery

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2005
    Messages:
    2,906
    Likes Received:
    0
    To be honest, I never know what to think of angels. I tend to think of them categorically in more of a Jewish way- as messengers of God. Therefore, anything really could be an angel if it carries a divine message, right? But so far as I understand it, in Jewish thought, angels do not have free will. So the idea of an angel with a personal agenda (including the Christian idea of Satan and demons as "fallen" angels) makes little sense in a Judaic context.

    Angels fall into a sort of category about which I have no opinion. This is because I have no experience of them. I have experienced spirits of various kinds, but none could be considered angelic by the conventional definitions of either Christianity or Judaism. I really have never had much interest in the idea of "guardian" angels as it seems (forgive me) like a bunch of New Age wishful thinking to have some being that just hangs around protecting you. I do believe that one can have spirit(s) that are sort of like guides, but in my experience these are not angelic, they have their own history, lessons to learn, and are more like companions and teachers than angels in the Judaic sense.

    I don't know why, but the whole angel thing just never really interested me that much. The Judaic concept always made sense to me- beings that embody a divine message. But the modern Christian concept of them doesn't make sense given the Judaic roots- seems more like trying to cram Pagan gods/goddesses into the idea of Jewish angels. Satan makes no sense to me whatsoever and his history is so obviously tied up in the church's attempts to demonize Pan and the other wild gods that the whole idea is thoroughly wrapped up in a smattering of ideas from various cultures, all of which had nothing to do with Christ or Judaism. In terms of demons as evil spirits, I tend to think this is the equivalent of people who consistently are selfish and make bad choices. It's the spirit equivalent to a "bad" person.

    In my experience, spirits all have free will as we do (at least the ones I've "met") and so it makes sense some would make wrong or selfish choices that would allow one to categorize them as demons. For me, there seems to be an evil force that could be the sort of inertia of all bad/selfish actions and thoughts combined, but it is not a person as Christians are used to thinking of Satan, and therefore it is not a threat in the same way. I find the idea of some powerful personal anti-divine being hanging around trying to convince me to do bad things just... odd. I say, people need to take responsibility for their own thoughts and actions and quit blaming some conceptual anti-divine being for their own bad choices.
     
  12. Netti-Netti

    Netti-Netti Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2008
    Messages:
    2,571
    Likes Received:
    0
    In the Judaic tradition, angels have no free will. From that standpoint, the notion of "fallen angel" actually doesn't make much sense.
     
  13. Avi

    Avi Interfaith Forums

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2009
    Messages:
    1,399
    Likes Received:
    0
    I believe the first direct Biblical reference to angels is in Genesis 19 when Lot and his family are helped by two angels to get out of Sodom !

    But I think the favorite for many is Jacob's ladder, Genesis 28, when Jacob first encounters G-d. He dreams of a ladder to heaven with angels going up and down the ladder. Quite the memorable vision ! I think there are times when we could all use a guardian angel. Even if he / she is not a literal one. :)
     
  14. seattlegal

    seattlegal Mercuræn Buddhist

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2005
    Messages:
    6,853
    Likes Received:
    249
    Do you have a source for this?
     
  15. Netti-Netti

    Netti-Netti Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2008
    Messages:
    2,571
    Likes Received:
    0
    "Just as it is true for the higher worlds that it is man and only man who is able to choose and perform good, so it is only man who can do evil. ... (p. 27) ~ Adin Steinsaltz
    Of all created beings, only humans are capable of free action. This makes humans superior to angels. (see Steinsaltz p. 41)

    Destructive angels seem to be become independent. This impression relates to them acquiring intensified presence in earthly realms as a result of human choices. In other worlds, their "presence" more intensely reflects bad choices on the part of humans.

    The existence of destructive angels is essentially parasitic, which creates the impression of a partnership between them and humans that enhances a person's powers. My hunch is that humans' attraction to evil relates in part to the seemingly magical quality of boosting the visibility of destructive angels by engaging in evil. Steinsaltz suggests there is nothing magical about any of it. It's all just part of how the system is set up.

    All this is explained in detail in the The Thirteen Petalled Rose.
     
  16. seattlegal

    seattlegal Mercuræn Buddhist

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2005
    Messages:
    6,853
    Likes Received:
    249
    So angels are like egregores? Puts a whole new spin on Genesis 6.
     
  17. Netti-Netti

    Netti-Netti Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2008
    Messages:
    2,571
    Likes Received:
    0
    How does it change your view of Genesis 6?
     
  18. seattlegal

    seattlegal Mercuræn Buddhist

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2005
    Messages:
    6,853
    Likes Received:
    249
    That's where the idea of fallen angels goes back to. However, if "angels" have no free-will, then it is the daughters of men who caused them to "fall." Interesting.
     
  19. Dream

    Dream Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2008
    Messages:
    3,677
    Likes Received:
    1
    Hey! You talkin' to me? An opinion is a fact, sort of. Tis a fact that it is my opinion.
     
  20. Netti-Netti

    Netti-Netti Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2008
    Messages:
    2,571
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ahh. But according to Steinsaltz, destructive angels have a function in the scheme of things. An angel would not need to be "fallen" or autonomous to serve in this capacity. They are simply servants. Tempting humans appears to be a G-d-intended function.
     

Share This Page