Are Christians really monotheistic? Really?

Thomas, you don't get it. God created evil along with good, so why don't you think that he want's what he made to flourish? Not only evil, everything. God made everything, and when he made it he said that it was good. That's in the bible.

See ya!
 
Thomas, you don't get it. God created evil along with good, so why don't you think that he want's what he made to flourish? Not only evil, everything. God made everything, and when he made it he said that it was good. That's in the bible.
So you believe your god wills what he wills (good), and simultaneously wills what he doesn't, against himself (evil)?

Then I suggest his sanity is in question, such a god is either 'mad, bad or dangerous to know' (to quote Lady Caroline Lamb).

Either your God is mightily confused, or you are mightily confused about mine. But be assured the god you're thinking of is not the God of Scripture.

Then again, as bad is good in your god's book, everything you believe might simply be a lie, and the joke's on you ...

Whatever, such a god you propose is a lesser being than myself, and not worth a second's thought. I am not all-powerful by any means, but I resist evil as best I can, and on occasion have made a pretty good job if it ... whereas yours, despite being all powerful, seems incapable of being himself ... doesn't even know who he is ... so on balance I would say you'd be better off worshipping me, but if that were the case, there is Another I would recommend.

Thomas
 
At least once in the history of the Earth might be nice. But why rush things? What's a few billion years to God?

Sarcasm aside, precisely. Perhaps you can be more specific.

While I have no idea what this means, I do find it interesting to use the word "fact" in a religion based on faith.

Sorry you didn't understand. Your existence is a fact.

Here is another fact. You cannot have light without dark.
 
Thomas, you don't get it. God created evil along with good, so why don't you think that he want's what he made to flourish? Not only evil, everything. God made everything, and when he made it he said that it was good. That's in the bible.

See ya!
God can not create an absense of something. God is good, an absense of God is an absense of good. Evil, is a void where God should be.

What is the opposite of hot?

Thomas has it right.
 
Thomas, you don't get it. God created evil along with good...

But again, what is the purpose to evil?

In the "Free Will" thread, you posted that since God knows all of our actions, thoughts and decisions before we even make them that indicates that free will doesn't exist or is an illusion. (If I am mistaken, please clarify your position for me. Thank you.)

Why would God create a condition that would create distress, violence, terror and death when he already knows what the outcome will be? Why did God place the Tree of Knowledge in the Garden of Eden? He must have known beforehand that Adam and Eve would taste the fruit.

What kind of God does these things?
 
But again, what is the purpose to evil?

In the "Free Will" thread, you posted that since God knows all of our actions, thoughts and decisions before we even make them that indicates that free will doesn't exist or is an illusion. (If I am mistaken, please clarify your position for me. Thank you.)

Why would God create a condition that would create distress, violence, terror and death when he already knows what the outcome will be? Why did God place the Tree of Knowledge in the Garden of Eden? He must have known beforehand that Adam and Eve would taste the fruit.

What kind of God does these things?
Do you really want to know CZ? I mean truly curious what makes us tick?

Take a chance, read "The Shack" by William Paul Young...you might be surprised at who our "God" is...:)
 
Do you really want to know CZ? I mean truly curious what makes us tick?

Take a chance, read "The Shack" by William Paul Young...you might be surprised at who our "God" is...:)

I was kinda hoping someone would just tell me.
 
Not to butt in,(but I am) here are some thoughts:

But again, what is the purpose to evil?
To bring creation to ruin and separate man from God, eternally and irrevocably.

In the "Free Will" thread, you posted that since God knows all of our actions, thoughts and decisions before we even make them that indicates that free will doesn't exist or is an illusion. (If I am mistaken, please clarify your position for me. Thank you.)
OK. Simple. Because you know someone is going to do something, does that mean they have no responsibility for their own actions?

Justice has one dimension: Punitive.
Mercy has one dimension: Forgiveness.

Consider: If you create a rational and autonomous nature, that is a self-determining creature, say a human being, or an angel (and all angels are rational, like us, but not all enjoy the autonomy that we do) and they make a mistake, do you try and put them right, or do you simply blink them out of existence for their error.

Rational creatures are aware of justice and mercy: when the operate together, man learns by experience, and can grow. When they operate without reference to each other, he doesn't, and he learns either fear or contempt.

Why would God create a condition that would create distress, violence, terror and death when he already knows what the outcome will be?
You assume that Adam and Eve were obliged to fall. They weren't, each had a choice, and made it ... the wrong one ... knowingly and willingly. Do yo always do what you know to be wrong?

They did not know the outcome of their actions, but they didn't need to, all they needed to know was it was not the thing to do. You steal a car, it's a secondary issue what happens to the person you stole it from, what is salient is that you know stealing is wrong. If you know that a bad thing will happen to someone because of your action, then you are doubly at fault. That you didn't know what would happen does not make you innocent of the theft.

Same with Adam and Eve.

Then factor in the world is not God — it has its own nature, its own natural justice. Why would he create a condition that causes pain if you stick your hand in a fire, and why does the would heal if you pull it away in time? Why will you fall if you step off a cliff and not float up in the air? Why does water come out of a tap, and electricity out of a socket (OK, bad analogy, with my DIY skills, there's always the chance ... )

The world is the way it is, it is relative and depends on each thing living in relation to every other thing ... and God says, this tree is here as a symbol of your autonomy and self-determination, and it's fruit is a symbol of the attraction of bad things, things that will upset the peace of the world. Even though they look good from the outside, believe me, the harmony inside will vanish in an instant if you taste it ... so don't touch, OK?

Why did God place the Tree of Knowledge in the Garden of Eden?
You might well ask why did God give man free will if He didn't want man to make a wrong decision? Answer: Because if man didn't have free will, he would be an animal, not a human.

He must have known beforehand that Adam and Eve would taste the fruit.
There is no 'beforehand' in God, but that's not the point. The point is that complaint is trying to shift responsibility for the act off the self and on to God. You might as well complain, "why did God make me human and not a mouse?"

Consider, all the animals lived in the Garden, and more than one, a fly, a bird, a monkey, whatever, must have tried and tasted the fruit ... but that didn't bring about the Fall, so the fruit has a symbolic dimension relevant only to autonomous self-determining beings ... the fruit means the tendency to do what suits me, at the cost of my relationship with you ... that's a temptation that faces us every day, and we fall daily ... but it's still our choice, we choose to succumb, we are never, as much as we try and kid ourselves, overcome.

Regardless of eternity, the act is and always remains our free choice. You chose it. God didn't make you do it, and nor did the serpent, there's no work-around on that one.

Thomas
 
But you can have dark without light.
So true!

In the Catholic context, "let there be light" is the knowledge of God, and it was set up from the beginning that creation would know God, whereas God could have set it up where man would never know ... that's the Deist theory, that God made the world, but is entirely absent from it, and man is entirely absented from the Divine Presence.

There's a Moslem saying I used to like "I was a secret treasure, and I wanted to be known." Now I realise that is wrong. God suffers no want ... God is what God is ... there's absolutely no reason why we should have the slightest inkling of Him ... other than he chooses to be known.

"Then Manoah inquired of the angel of the LORD, "What is your name, so that we may honor you when your word comes true?" He replied, "Why do you ask my name? It is beyond understanding." (Judges 13: 17-18)

Why? Because God planted the seed there, that gleam of light, right in the heart of everything, from the very beginning. And nowhere in the world does that light burn brighter than in the human soul.

That's what angels are, beings of pure intellect, that irradiate the knowledge of God.

Without that light in us, we'd never think to ask.

Thomas
 
When I'm saying that God wills evil, it is simply because of the fact that God created it. I say that he created it, because he created everything, and I don't know why because I'm not God. Thomas, why do you assume that God must be mad or evil if he created and is happy with evil? It is only a part of his larger creation and he is happy with it all.

He knows that certain evil things are to happen, and he knows how this world will invariably end. His perceptions of good and evil are not the same as our own, Thomas. I think that the limitations that you put on him, assuming that he is inherently only good, and not inherently everything are a fine example of what this post is originally on. If God is in charge of only the good, who then is in charge of the rest, and if no one, how did the rest come to be?

Citizenzen, you are correct in my views, but this applies only because he knows all of this and is our creator. So the statement that if I know someone is going to do something beforehand it does not affect their actions does not apply in the least. I did not create them, therefore what I know means nothing to them.

You are right, there is no beforehand with God, I was merely addressing things in a linear fashion because I assumed that you did. Correct me if I was wrong, of course...
But the fact that God does not see things on a timeline, rather, simultaneously, does support my assertion that there is no true free will.

It's all about the power and authority of God, and apparently some people have some problems with authority...
 
What would happen to this world, Thomas, if there was not evil in it? Would any of us truly be able to appreciate the good, with no context? How would we know that it was good? How would future generations? Is evil truly evil if put in that context?

Just a taste of alternate reasoning for you. Look at it closely before you judge it false as you are invariably going to do.

See ya!
 
I'll try to answer some questions now from you citizenzen.

Why did God make evil?

You know, you'd have to ask God that, it wasn't my plan, and I have no idea what God thinks when he does things. I simply trust that if he made it, and he is God, an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent being , who created this universe and called it good, it must have some purpose in his creation.

But again, what is the purpose to evil?

Why would God create a condition that would create distress, violence, terror and death when he already knows what the outcome will be? Why did God place the Tree of Knowledge in the Garden of Eden? He must have known beforehand that Adam and Eve would taste the fruit.

What kind of God does these things?

A god that is beyond all human understanding does these things. Do you even know if what you perceive as evil IS truly evil on the grandest scale of things? God is on that level, and if he is happy with the universe as he created it, it is good enough for me. After all, If we do not even fully understand the creation, how can we understand the creator?
 
A god that is beyond all human understanding does these things.

I'd be happier if people left it there.

By happier, I mean in forums like this one. I don't care how personalized people care to make God in their hearts and minds or with others who share their faith, but when these ideas are shared in a forum with non-believers like me, I seek the opportunity to find some commonality between our very different experiences.

So when people talk about God in a way that humanizes Him, and seem to give Him human interests and motivations, I find it impossible to reconcile that with something that supposedly created the universe, exists for eternity, and is omniscient and all-powerful. These two aspects, the human and eternal, seem an incomprehensible mix to me.

Thankfully, a person like you comes along who can bridge that gap between believer and nonbeliever. While I still do not believe in God, I can appreciate your concept, that if He did exist, He would be quite beyond all human understanding. Though I am pretty sure that He would be very fond of cats. They totally rock.

BTW, your avatar looks very much like one of our six cats, Olive.
 
Thank you. Sometimes I think that I say things in ways that no one is capable of understanding. Not that they're unintelligent, but that when I translate thoughts into words it comes out as incomprehensible ramblings. Glad to see that at least someone can understand the craziness, lol.

And I'm quite sure that God is fond of cats. I find it hard to believe that some people aren't. The cat in this pic is so cute! You have one like it, I'm so jealous. lol. I saw the pic, and I was like, 'Why has no one used this yet?!'

See ya!
 
Hi Thomas and happy to see you back :)

there's absolutely no reason why we should have the slightest inkling of Him ... other than he chooses to be known.
Does he? If he really wanted to be known he could just with his infinite ability manifest himself every few years and make it unambiguous. But he does not...does he. Instead he chooses to reveal it to a few people who get off on controlling people and who put it in a book with not only more get out clauses than a dodgy insurance policy but a code of law that invests itself with divine power. Seems to me if he is there he is not trying very hard to be known and has a poor understanding of the human capacity for perversion.

Without that light in us, we'd never think to ask.
We can ask such questions because our brains evolved as social omnivores to be good at problem solving and complex language. To be good at problem solving you need to be able to create mental hypothetical situations and many animals have been demonstrated capable of this. We are the best of course. Complex language allows to share these mental experiments and ideas with each other and before long...hey presto...religion is born. It is not something given. It is an evolved behaviour.
 
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