citizenzen said:
I didn't wish to unduly irritate Christians by appearing overly combative in their section.
how about jews? hehe.
There are people today searching for Noah's Ark or the Garden of Eden, using the Flood to counter science and evolution.
these people are fundamentalist nincompoops whose most egregious fundamentalism consists of fundamentally misinterpreting the purpose and function of the texts in question. imagine a bunch of people trying to use shakespeare's plays as a tour guide to modern england and you won't go far wrong.
The only reaction to Genesis that makes any sense is, "Well of course it's fiction, but there are lessons to be learned even in fiction."
no. the only reaction to genesis that is an *open-minded* one is "what is this text trying to teach us, how and why?
Yet I contend that even the lessons people think Genesis provides are not what the actual words tell us.
i'd certainly agree with that. try reading it in the language it was written in for a start. next, listen to what wil just said:
wil said:
Yet again I am always amazed how atheists see the bible the same as fundamental literalists. Yet most of Christianity does not. Oh my the flood didn't happen, heavens to mergatroid, 'bout time you caught up, but it won't make the news at seven....we already knew that.
i mean, personally, when i want to find out about something, i ask people who understand it, not people who clearly don't.
Somehow the story of Genesis has been interpreted as a failure of mankind when it should be seen as a failure of God. How did this blame get mistakenly turned to man?
who says it's a failure of man? you're looking at a particular type of christian reading of the text. it's a jewish text; perhaps you ought to ask us?
The curtain needs to be pulled back to reveal how flawed these stories are. Anybody who doesn't wish to participate... well... you know where the door is.
are we still allowed to participate if we want to question these assumptions?
I would place this under the category of personal vendetta... with extreme prejudice.
well, fair enough, but perhaps it would be fairer to blame the fundamentalist nincompoops rather than genesis? i mean, would you blame shakespeare because you can't find any ghosts at elsinore castle?
citizenzen on noah said:
Yeah... well... maybe it's just me, but I fail to be filled with "great optimism" by this.
nor should you be. are you seriously telling me that there is no contemporary relevance in the idea that the consequence of humanity's arrogance, hubris and violence might be the destruction of our entire civilisation? i think you might be asking the wrong questions.
So in less than 100 years Noah had procure the materials, engineer and build an enormous wooden boat (at least 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 45 feet high) by himself (there is no mention of a work crew and anyway I wonder if God would approve of defiled humans working on his project). Noah then had to gather two of every "animals and creeping things and birds" and enough food to feed every creature for a year. That would mean he had to travel to each continent, collecting for instance, koalas from Australia and the eucalyptus leaves they eat, pandas from Asia and their bamboo. He would have needed an Ark just to prepare for his Ark! But maybe I'm missing your point here.
yeah, you kind of are. the starting point for our understanding this sort of text is asking precisely that sort of question, which is precisely what our sages did. it was the ensuing discussions that were the source of enlightenment.
I would like to ask you, as a thought experiment, how you solve the migration of animals from the ark. If they were being fruitful and multiplying immediately after landing, then we should see evidence of this. How is it that all the monkeys with tails knew to return to South America? How does one reconcile the distribution of wildlife as we currently know it and have it all emerge from one location, with one mating pair, in just a few thousand years?
that's all fine, but it isn't the question we're interested in. genesis is not an answer to the question "how did life begin on this planet?", but "why are people the way they are - and how, therefore, should we live?" genesis certainly has insightful answers to this. what it isn't is a scientific textbook.
Avi said:
Poo's insights are very well articulated with respect to this issue. I have heard the notion that she describes as the Jewish one, with respect to the story of A&E being a transition from animal to human. I am not sure where that notion comes from. It might be what is called "midrash" which are stories which relate to the Torah, but I am not sure.
for an insight into this issue, i refer you to previous posts of mine, especially the ones in this thread:
http://www.interfaith.org/forum/garden-of-eden-2328.html
and this:
http://www.interfaith.org/forum/god-made-coats-of-skin-6848.html
and there are some important points here:
http://www.interfaith.org/forum/creationism-intelligent-design-evolution-or-6115.html
http://www.interfaith.org/forum/is-christianity-a-negative-religion-6922-4.html#post99365
http://www.interfaith.org/forum/creationism-intelligent-design-evolution-or-6115.html#post81990
if you want to learn something of the entry-level "what's the real question here?" sort of discussion, i can do no better than point you at the classical C12th commentator rash"i.
Berei**** - Parsha - Weekly Torah Portion
citizenzen said:
Yet Genesis betrays this all-knowing aspect of God. God does not know that Eve has eaten from the tree of Knowledge or shared the fruit with Adam...
that's not what the text says, though. it doesn't say "and G!D didn't Know what adam had done". G!D Asks the questions, but what makes you think that the answer is news? as a parent i often find myself in the position where i know perfectly well what has happened, i just want to hear how my kid explains himself.
So it just astounds me that this story has not been called out before... at least that I've seen. So I thought it time to do so.
if you look at the links above, you'll see you're not the first.
when the fall was put on the shoulders of Eve, do you think that changed a few lives over history? Do you think that might have shaped how we treated women through the centuries? I do. I think that interpretation was a vital force in female oppression, a force that we still feel the repercussions of today.
oh, certainly. unfortunately, people often see in the text what they want to see in it (such as the idea that there is a "fall", which is not a jewish idea) rather than what the text actually says and implies. if only people used the correct approaches, these errors would not occur. like i say, go and read the links to earlier threads, those will give you some far more interesting questions instead of this aren't-literalists-idiots question-begging approach.
b'shalom
bananabrain