Jews as Chosen People: A Theosophical Perspective

Discussion in 'Alternative' started by Nick the Pilot, Jul 18, 2009.

  1. Avi

    Avi Interfaith Forums

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  2. Bruce Michael

    Bruce Michael New Member

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    Yes some early Christians did reject the Old Testament and only stuck to the Gospels - or even one Gospel. It wasn't because they were anti Semitic, for most of them were probably ex Jews. (The first Christians were Jews.)
     
  3. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    "(The first Christians were Jews.)"

    --> This brings up my theory, that Jesus was originally a great teacher at the calibre of Buddha, and was later deified by the church. If so, this would easily allow for the idea that Jesus was a Jew.
     
  4. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Staff Member

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    I thought Jesus was a Jew because he was born of a Jewish mother, and thus there was no argument about his being Jewish? :)
     
  5. bananabrain

    bananabrain awkward squadnik

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    there isn't. whether he was a heretic, or the messiah, or a rabbi, or a sectarian or what is an entirely different question.

    b'shalom

    bananabrain
     
  6. Dondi

    Dondi Active Member

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    If there was any 'chosen', wouldn't it have begun with the covenant with Abraham, particularly in regards to his seed:

    "Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

    And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed." - Genesis 12:1-3

    And as the psalmist agrees:

    "I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,
    Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah." - Psalm 89:3-4

    Thus the whole purpose for the covenant is that the rest of the world would be blessed by what God would do in the seed of Abraham, particularly Isaac, Jacob, and his sons. As I understand it, the Jews are the vehicle in which God's purposes were to come into fruition. He had to work with somebody. Sheesh! ;)

    The point is that God, for whatever reason, made certain promises to a group of people and it is God that is committed to fulfill them, regardless of the faithfulness, or lack thereof, on the other side of the covenant. And quite frankly, judging from the sorted history of the Jews we find in scripture, their end of the bargain was very sketchy at best. Nevertheless, God has always been faithful.

    So to broaden the perspective, the purpose of the Jews is that the rest of the world could be blessed. The God of the Jews, as an example, can also be the God of the Gentiles. The covenant, to an certain extent, extends to all rest of the nations of the world. It's just that the Jews, for whatever reason, would find it first.
     
  7. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    I think Hitler had a bug up his bottom, not because of how the jews flourished in the depression after WWI, but how he didn't like the competition of another "choosen" and supreme race. :/ thought I'd just, ya know.. Toss that into the old pot of thought here.
     
  8. Dream

    Dream New Member

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    I take exception to limiting Abraham to only Jews, since Abraham was a Hebrew and the father of the Hebrews. It is an important word. He would not have called himself a Jew though apparently Jews are descended from him and are considered Hebrews. 'Hebrew' could be translated into English as 'A stranger', and its recorded that Abraham lived his life as a stranger in a strange land. That was one of his defining characteristics. Using this strategy he would bless the world by living in it, being an example of how to live whilst not having his own land -- sort of like Father Christmas crossed with a Gypsy. He lived with the promise of one day having his own land, in the far future, for the sake of bettering the world. This is arguably how most Jews have lived their lives - as strangers. It occurs to me that anyone may adopt the same strategy, and then they will technically be a Stranger in a Strange Land as well. I'm not saying this makes them suddenly Jewish but that bloodline is only so important to Abraham. I'm also pointing out that Jews accept converts of all bloodlines by which, they recognize the character of Abraham is not simply about blood but about a way of life. Principles are far more important than blood, which is only important because of its use in passing on the principles.

    Alex, just want to add this:
    Hitler was a paranoid conspiracy theorist who couldn't handle the concept of strangers in his country. That is typical of a dictator. They're constantly worried about getting stabbed in the back. He had delusions that all such Strangers were dangerous and evil, but he had to resort to racism in order to get rid of them as overall they had very good behavior. If they had really been dangerous, then he shouldn't have needed the racist card to kill them. The killing off of so many Jews over the years has from time to time had some negative effects on the survivors. It has made some of them question their principles, but overall they are still solid. Exhibit A: they continue to be sympathetic to Muslims living in non Muslim countries, anybody who's an underdog, lost causes, slaves, or basically anybody who is any kind of stranger.
     
  9. dauer

    dauer Active Member

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    If you translated very loosely.

    That's Moses. Possibly a better translation is: sojourner in a foreign land (following Fox)

    Bloodline? No. Judaism isn't a race. Anyone can become naturalized, if you will, into the Jewish people. However the chain of birthright in the biblical narrative passes on through Jacob who then becomes Israel and the Jewish people are known as Bnai Yisrael, the children of Israel. That nationhood is important and is an important piece of the covenant with Abraham. One could also trace another nation through Ishmael. Some have suggested that Islam comes from Ishmael and Christianity, as an extension of the Roman Empire, from Esau, but that's going beyond the words of Torah alone. I think your drash is nice. I don't object to the intention. I just don't think it's a very close reading of the text. It's a nice thought but I don't think it's reason to take exception to the assertion that Abraham is specifically a Jewish patriarch. I do think there are other ways of backing up that type of assertion.
     
  10. Avi

    Avi Interfaith Forums

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    Bruce, here is another exchange of thoughts about Theosophy that I would also like to get your feedback on:




     
  11. Dream

    Dream New Member

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    Stealing Abraham

    Dauer, thanks for the compliment! I hear what you're saying. Also Yes, I used fuzzy interpolation of a translation of Hebrew & the word 'Eber, and I got fuzzy results. I've needed to be fuzzy along the way to where I am, though sometimes its inconvenient. Fox's work I have looked over, and think it looks cool. Affirmative, you are making sense to me about Abraham.
     
  12. Avi

    Avi Interfaith Forums

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    Now it appears to be Nick's theory that Jesus was a Jew ! Theosophical re-writing of history.
     
  13. Bruce Michael

    Bruce Michael New Member

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    Those other questions re Atlantis, racial superiority etc. are rather more complex. I will look at them later.
    For now I can say "the first will be last and the last will be first".
    On equality, we can say that in the realm of the laws of men there should be equal rights. And in spiritual law, we are all loved by God equally. But that pretty much the end of it, as evidenced by folk in the world around us. There is no equality in:

    • Good looks
    • Mental agility and intelligence
    • Finance
    • Sin
    • Virtue
    • Physical dexterity and strength
    • Talents- whatever they be
    • And so on
    And so too there is no "spiritual equality", as there are human beings who are way advanced, and others not so much. There are beings below us and hierarchical beings way above us - called "Hierarchy" for a reason.

    Now the Jews were the "chosen race" for their divinely directed bloodline, a bloodline so special, it would befit a Messiah. This is why we find the genealogies in the New Testament (right back to Adam), and also why the Old Testament is considered important by Christians.
     
  14. Bruce Michael

    Bruce Michael New Member

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    A "Root Race" is a period of time- a cultural period.

    Root race - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Remember, to be a theosophist you don't have to be a follower of Blavatsky (I'm not) or any other author. You just have to subscribe to the objects/aims.
    Dogmatism is not allowed.
     
  15. Avi

    Avi Interfaith Forums

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    Interesting observation, Bruce, can you please tell us which parts of Madame Blavatsky's philosophy you reject ? Also, would you say that her particular philosophy is dogmatic ?
     
  16. Avi

    Avi Interfaith Forums

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    Bruce, thank you for providing this link. If you read the wiki article you will see that "root race" is more than a period of time. Here is the Theosophy view of the Aryan root race :

    Bruce, "a world dominating Aryan Empire" ! Can you see why this might make a few of us a wee bit uneasy ??
     
  17. Bruce Michael

    Bruce Michael New Member

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    That would be an exhausting study- she said so much. Principally though, I am a Johannine Christian, in that I believe that the Creative Word "by through Whom all things were made" was incarnate in Christ Jesus.
    I do believe - along with good Jews - in reincarnation.


    If some people take it dogmatically, then they should take her statements against dogmatism dogmatically as well :).

    Theosophy article: "A Society Without a Dogma" by Blavatsky
     
  18. Raksha

    Raksha New Member

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    This isn't addressed to anyone in particular. I've been reading some of the posts in this topic and it looks very interesting. For a number of reasons, I've been doing a lot of thinking these past few weeks and months about the related concepts of the Covenant and the Chosen People. I've written some posts related to my speculations on this forum (on the Judaism board) and on another forum. It's going to take awhile to read everything that's been written so far, but I think I'd like to participate in this discussion.

    I'll even try to behave myself...and hope Avi isn't too disappointed to hear that. :D

    Please note though that I didn't promise to behave myself! I try not to make promises I can't keep.

    --Linda
     
  19. Avi

    Avi Interfaith Forums

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    Go ahead Linda, take a shot, I'm pretty sure it will be an interesting one :D.

    Bruce told me recently that there are Jewish Theosophists.

    So no, I won't be surprised at all to find out that your mystical side is interested in this issue. :cool:

    Maybe your comments will get both of us kicked out of the Alternative sub-forum (or at least me) :D !!
     
  20. Bruce Michael

    Bruce Michael New Member

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    Hi Avi,
    This proves that anyone can write what they like on a wikipedia page. It is not a quote from HPB. If we look around us today we see that Western culture is the dominant culture. American English is the dominant cultural language, and the American culture has spread around the world via TV, Hollywood, computers, production lines etc.
    During HPB's time we had the English empire dominating the world- Queen Victoria outlived Blavatsky.

    So English culture (and the English culture suppplanted in the USA) has been rather dominant in recent history. People used to marvel how such a little country could have such an influence.

    Now we have the emergence of a partly Westernised China (this was predicted by Solovieff).
    Gay used to mean happy, words change in meaning or are devalued- like Aryan for instance. Aryan studies used to be par for the course: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Jones_(philologist)

    The Nazis threw the Ariosophists into concentration camps:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariosophy
    The Nazi religion was Irminenschaft - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Its leader was Karl Maria Wiligut - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    We can see how the theosophical ideal of tolerant cosmopolitanism is so needed today- pity it wasn't heeded back then. Surely this is the better than being an intolerant bigot.
     

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