Abortion

[immortalitylost]

I dunno. I've been there myself. I know the odds of the baby not surviving the birth is greater than the mother not surviving birth, and know several women whose otherwise healthy babies have died due to a refusal on the part of medical caregivers to take even the simplest of preventative measures.

I understand. I just don't think that every pregnancy should have the excuse to be terminated because of the risks of giving birth. That just doesn't seem like an, I don't know, universal enough concern to justify abortion in all cases, like if there is no serious reason that things are likely to go wrong. Life is usually worth the risk. And I know how bad the medical system can get sometimes. I couldn't move my arm for months after I was born, because the doctor pulled me out the wrong way with forceps and damaged some nerves or something. I'm just lucky to have a massage therapist for a mom.

How many do you know who have given this reason for an abortion? I don't know any. Are you sure that this reason for having an abortion is really all that widespread?
Don't get me wrong--I am pro-life wherever possible. However, I am also pro-choice, in that I cannot possibly know all of the details behind all of the situations in which women seek an abortion. Some reasons are valid, and carefully considered. I would not deny these women their choice in this matter.

I doubt that the fear of getting stretch marks is a widespread cause for abortion. But in some cases, carrying a baby to term and the affects that has on a body has to come in to play for some women. It's not that much of a stretch to think that would be the only reason for some. I don't know any. I don't have any friends that have had abortions. Though my grandmother, and aunt, and probably many other distant family members have.

You know, I wouldn't put it past my aunt for that to be the reason though...

I went through the effectiveness statistics for the different types of contraception, and figured out what the chances of a woman getting pregnant over the course of her lifetime if she used the contraception every time. I also took into account that hormonal birth control is not feasible over a woman's full reproductive lifetime. My guestimates were eye-opening--about 70% of women who have sex and use contraception correctly every time can expect to have at least one unplanned pregnancy during her lifetime. I suspect that the actual number of fertile women who have sex experience an unplanned pregnancy during their lifetime might actually be higher. (20% of couples will experience fertility problems.) I haven't compared my guestimates to the guestimates of other people who are probably better statisticians than me.

I agree that if someone is responsible, thinking about what can come from having sex ie. baby, and the contraceptives do not work, an abortion would be warranted. Still sad...

So you see being forced to carry an unplanned pregnancy to be a punitive measure? Do you think that is a healthy way to view pregnancy and childbirth?

I certainly sounds like you view such pregnancies as punitive measures. Are you sure this is the most healthy was to view pregnancy and childbirth?

Well, a punitive measure, no not really I just get angry and wish women would take responsibility for their actions. From my viewpoint, in the case where you simply don't use a contraceptive during sex for whatever reason while not wanting to have a child, the only morally right thing, the only responsible thing is to carry the baby to term at the least. If, after nine months of careful consideration, the woman still feels that she can not take care of the child, there are soo many people out there who cannot have children, and would be able to give that child the home, and love it deserves. It would be a tough thing to do. But when you're talking about the life of a child, the decision should be tough. It should be very tough, and well thought out.

I have a friend that was being stupid when she was 16 and got pregnant. She wanted to have an abortion. She tried to kill the baby herself she was so distraught. She finally decided to carry the baby to term, and raise it. Even though the man who fathered the baby left her because she was "getting too fat." Even though she was still in school. She did it. And now, she has a beautiful Little girl that she would not get rid of for the world.

Babies have a way of creeping into your heart. If you give them the chance.

Ahh, murdering your baby (your own term) is acceptable as long as you're "responsible" about it? Even if you deliberately created the baby? I see.

It's still terrible. But it's not as terrible as murdering a baby because you made a bad choice and can't accept the responsibility that comes along with that bad choice. It is bad. But it also gives a child that would otherwise not have been able to be, the chance to have a life. It doesn't really make it better, but at least there is some good to be gained in the process.

I wouldn't say that going through an abortion is not troublesome.
I think that forcing a woman to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term is quite troublesome. You can try to persuade a woman to not have an abortion, but I think forcing a woman to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term against her will is immoral.

I do not mean women should be forced, I didn't mean to come off that way. That is immoral, and that is why I consider the topic of abortion to have no place in the political arena. Like I said, I just would prefer it if women would take responsibility for their actions. It'd be nice if men did also in this area, but in terms of childbirth it is really the woman's body, and therefore she caries the lions share of the responsibility.

And, I'm sure that's the fiftieth time at least the word responsibility has shown up in this post. I guess it's the word of the day, and the overall message I'm trying to convey.

 

[seattlegal]

I really don't think that we are that far apart in our views, Mort. I think the differences between us are based upon our perceptions of responsibility. Your view of responsibility seems to be a bit more idealistic than mine. I've seen too many cases of women behaving responsibly still wind up with an unplanned pregnancy. When you consider that the majority of women who have sex and use contraception responsibly will have to face an unplanned pregnancy some time during their lifetime, a blanket condemnation of them as being irresponsible really doesn't make sense, imo. I've even met a woman who became pregnant after she had her tubes tied. This youngest son of hers is a real cutie. She considers him to be a blessing.

 

[immortalitylost]

Oh, I don't condemn people who are responsible and an unplanned pregnancy still happens. Though it is nice when they still decide to keep the baby. I thought I put that in the last post... hmm. But no, that I don't condemn. I don't condemn anyone really. It just saddens me when people kill babies because they "didn't plan for them" even though they took no steps to prevent them. I'm talking no steps. If you use a contraceptive and it fails, that is in no way your fault, and I wouldn't even consider calling it that. I would only call the ones who actually are irresponsible, irresponsible. There are cases when it's, while I wouldn't consider it "completely alright," at least, understandable to want an abortion. I recognize that. And I feel for the women that are thrown into those positions. I don't feel that badly however for the women that put themselves in that position with their bad choices, and then refuse to take responsibility.

Phew, hopefully it's all clear now... maybe?

 

[greymare]

So, the mothers right to life takes precedence over the childs?
Unplanned and unwanted = abortion?

Strewth im sure glad my mother didnt think the same way.

Especially in this day and age, there are systems in place to look after the child, to give it a home. If its such an interruption to the mother to be pregnant, its only 9 months out of her life, at least she was given a chance by her parents to have a life....

This is something i wont waiver from.

so tell me, what is the worst scenario that could happen for a woman in todays society to have an "unwanted pregnancy?".

 

[immortalitylost]

I don't believe abortion is right in any case save for maybe two. I just can see why a woman would consider it in certain situations.

The one instance is if she was raped by a blood relative. That would not only be seriously, health endangeringly traumatic to go through the pregnancy, not good for mother or child, but the child could also be born with serious health problems related to the incest aspect of the rape. I could understand abortion in that instance, even condone it.

The second would be if it was a near certainty that if the mother was to carry the child to term, both she and the child would die. That would not be worth the risk. Now there are mothers that would take the risk if it were only to be them that may die, and not the child. But if it were near certain that both would die before the term was up, I would consider that a just reason for an abortion.

 

[seattlegal]

Now that we have that cleared up, Mort, I'm interested in hearing your opinion on some of the following issues:

• "Traditional" health insurance that will only cover maternity benefits for married women. I think this contributes to an increase of abortions. Women can't really be "responsible" if quality maternal care is unavailable to them just because of their lack of marital status, can they?
• So-called "managed care," be it through a private HMO, or through the government, that will try to cut costs by denying/refusing even the most basic preventative measures in prenatal care, which results in an increase of infant mortality and maternal injury and suffering, and will try to reach a "cash settlement" with the women whose babies die due to a lack these preventative measures. It's not a good incentive for encouraging women to take unplanned pregnancies to term, is it?
• The scorn heaped upon women who do the best to behave responsibly, yet still have an unplanned pregnancy. This will tend to steer many women into the view that an early term fetus is "just a lump of cells," no?

Thank you for hanging in there with our dialog.

 

[seattlegal]

So, the mothers right to life takes precedence over the childs?
Unplanned and unwanted = abortion?

Strewth im sure glad my mother didnt think the same way.

Especially in this day and age, there are systems in place to look after the child, to give it a home. If its such an interruption to the mother to be pregnant, its only 9 months out of her life, at least she was given a chance by her parents to have a life....

This is something i wont waiver from.

so tell me, what is the worst scenario that could happen for a woman in todays society to have an "unwanted pregnancy?".

A lack of access to good maternal care, being scorn and outcast by family and relatives instead of being supported by them, and a chance of early death due to a lack of quality maternal care, to start.

 

[greymare]

Ok, so my country differs from yours, here, if you show up at a hospital, about to give birth, MONEY is not an issue, the health of the mother and child are. I Have NO IDEA about your countrys system in this regard, so i canot comment. Meh, scorn and outcast by family???? I mean, who really gives a toss, if they think that way??? I would take an early death of myself if pregnant over the life of my unborn child. If both myself and my child were 100% sure of my demise because of a pregnancy, well, i would take that risk because after all, by your reasoning the child is going to die anyway. I wouldnt want to live without my child.(knowing i had put my life over theirs). Thts just my opinion. Obviously I am in the minority here.

 

[nativeastral]

l have had two children, neither planned and the second one came even after taking a morning after pill. 2 years later l chose to have an abortion which was emotionally traumatic but the right choice at the time; there was no way l would have carried the baby to term then to give it up for adoption; one would have to be super duper a something or other l cannot imagine, though if such cultural norms were set in place [like surrogacy is nowadays in some countries] then our consciousness may accept it differently. Even later l had a spontaneous miscarriage..all of these experiences were deeply affective as well as physiological and physically demanding on my body.

Personally l do not see abortion at below 15 weeks immoral, though of course it should not be seen as a supermarket decision; both sexes should take responsibility for using contaceptives if a child is not on the agenda. Men have been let off for too long and most no longer carry johnnys thinking the women is on the pill or basically not seeing it as their problem/body.

Education on this is not sufficiently given or explored at primary level [at least 11 years old] showing the whole gamut of consequences of having sex, giving birth and the heavy life long committment of being a parent..children should be taught this and not wrapped in cotton wool till its too late, they are mature enough to be given this information as early as possible since periods and sexual interest start early.

Since l am karmically inclined l rationalised that souls sometimes do not have to come to term and be incarnated at that moment...there are always other moments of becoming...thats how l got over my sorrow and no one should judge me or cast stones until they walk in my shoes.

 

[seattlegal]

Ok, so my country differs from yours, here, if you show up at a hospital, about to give birth, MONEY is not an issue, the health of the mother and child are. I Have NO IDEA about your countrys system in this regard, so i canot comment. Meh, scorn and outcast by family???? I mean, who really gives a toss, if they think that way??? I would take an early death of myself if pregnant over the life of my unborn child. If both myself and my child were 100% sure of my demise because of a pregnancy, well, i would take that risk because after all, by your reasoning the child is going to die anyway. I wouldnt want to live without my child.(knowing i had put my life over theirs). Thts just my opinion. Obviously I am in the minority here.

What if you already had other children who would be left without a mother if you died in childbirth? How would that affect your decision?

What if you were prohibited by law to even have a decision regarding this?

 

[greymare]

i would make preparations for my children and take my chances. ALL my chidlren are important to me. More important than me. Prohibited by law? The law is wrong, . Break the law rather than kill my child.
I am not judging others and their decisions, I am simply stateing mine. Others live with that decision, i could not. I have had three children, lost two, and could have had one as a result of an "incident" when I was 13, never would i ever consider that alternative, better my life lost than my child.

 

[Dream]

Murder does not have any place in this debate. Why is it that an infant should not be killed? Because of its potential. We're in the Christian thread. Contraception, abstinance, non-marriage, and abortion all are rejecting unwanted pregnancies and all nearly equivalent. These are considered against the commandment to 'Fill and subdue the earth', but they are not murder. An infant is valuable, yet it is not in the image of God yet until it has grown. Murder, by definition, is wrong because 'In the image of God made he man'. Murder does not enter the discussion. Secondly, some people zealously say that abortion is offering children to the god 'Molech'. That is also incorrect. The absolute prohibition of abortion seems a slavish adherence to rules, not a valuing of life and of God's image.

Quality of life for children is very important, as this important for teaching children how to live. It is about creating the image of God in them. Not rearing your kids is a tragedy as if you had died and left them as orphans. Even though your kids are alive, you are not really 'Filling and subduing the earth'. If you work 18 hours a day and have children, it is a tragedy. If you have 50 kids, it is a tragedy. They cannot rear themselves.

 

[citizenzen]

Murder does not have any place in this debate. Why is it that an infant should not be killed? Because of its potential.

Why is it that a condemned man should not be killed? Potential.

Why is it that a soldier should not be killed? Potential.

Potential is a quality of all life, not just fetuses.

 

[Quahom1]

Why is it that a condemned man should not be killed? Potential.

Why is it that a soldier should not be killed? Potential.

Potential is a quality of all life, not just fetuses.

That is the RUDEST thing I have ever read in my life. To compare a fetus with a human who can make choices, yet still condemn to death....

I am disgusted.

 

[citizenzen]

That is the RUDEST thing I have ever read in my life. To compare a fetus with a human who can make choices, yet still condemn to death....

I am disgusted.

Really? Disgusted?

I wonder Q, can a condemned man find salvation in Jesus Christ? I imagine that a Christian would find that a worthwhile potential for any human to achieve... even the condemned.

Now that I've written the RUDEST post ever, I can rest easy. I've reached my potential.

 

[Quahom1]

Really? Disgusted?

I wonder Q, can a condemned man find salvation in Jesus Christ? I imagine that a Christian would find that a worthwhile potential for any human to achieve... even the condemned.

Now that I've written the RUDEST post ever, I can rest easy. I've reached my potential.

Only the condemned can ask for reprieve CZ. And that is a thing between one and his/her maker.

Your lack of compassion for the unborn/non voting/no choice little ones, really is upsetting.

 

[citizenzen]

Only the condemned can ask for reprieve CZ. And that is a thing between one and his/her maker.

Your lack of compassion for the unborn/non voting/no choice little ones, really is upsetting.

So my pointing out that all people possess potential demonstrates of a lack of compassion?

How so?

 

[Quahom1]

So my pointing out that all people possess potential demonstrates of a lack of compassion?

How so?

Oh, I get it. I seek "therapy" to no longer be compassionate to the/for the innocent and indefensible... yeah, that will work.

I ain't the sweetest rose on the block...but I'm not death row's block either...

One takes an innocent...one answers to another higher than us...that is the way it is. Don't agree? Fine. Figure it out for yourself.

 

[citizenzen]

One takes an innocent...one answers to another higher than us...that is the way it is. Don't agree? Fine. Figure it out for yourself.

First I have to figure out your post.

Maybe you shouldn't type when you're angry... it muddles up your syntax.

 

[immortalitylost]

SG: Our health care system is terrible. Especially the insurance companies that will only cover what they believe in as medicine. I have PCOS, and part of what the doctor prescribed me at one time was birth control pills. My insurance would not help pay for these because they were a contraceptive. Even though I was using them for their medicinal purposes. So it's not only abortion this type of pick and choose coverage is encouraging.

And any company that is more concerned with the bottom line than people's health is deliberately evil in my opinion. And it's a sad fact that the federal government is incapable of running anything in an orderly, efficient, or sensible manner. They're just too big, clunky, and full of crap to get anything done, let alone done right.

As far as the scorn of people goes. Well what wouldn't less of that improve. When people scorn the really terrible stuff, it doesn't tend to do any good, and the scorn for the rest usually has a negative effect. And it could help foster that belief. But the frequency that abortions are perfomed also has to be a contributing factor. They've become almost everyday things, trivialized. And so people block out the fact that fetus's are just as alive as infants. They turn them into unfeeling lumps of flesh with no life or thought or souls. It's like a defense mechanism.

Dream: So fetus's aren't really people until they grow for nine months and are born? What about premature babies? Are these not really alive yet either? Or do they count because they are out of the mothers womb.

A seed contains a tree, even when it is a seed. What if the universe was just snuffed out in it's infancy? What about the earth? Would that have been a problem? They weren't fully formed yet. They still aren't. Do children count as people? They aren't fully matured and grown into the image of God yet, are they? I mean, just where do you draw the line, and what qualifications do you use?

Cz: didn't you mean that murdering fetus's is the same as murdering death row inmates and soldiers? Like they are all equally bad? It really didn't seem to me like you were condoning any of those things, just pointing out that murder is murder in all forms and equally bad because everyone has potential not just fetuses. Am I on base?

Just trying to stop a new argument in it's tracks.

Hey Cz. If you have no more potential, does that mean it would be alright to murder you? Just kiddin. I can't even murder ants. I seriously feel really bad if I step on one. And yet I own a ball python and have to kill mice weekly to feed him. I guess it's only needless killing I regret. Man, I's complicated...