a curious story.

Discussion in 'Ancient History and Mythology' started by shawn, Jul 31, 2009.

  1. shawn

    shawn New Member

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    I have recently heard a curious story from someone and a cursory search on the net has produced no results.
    I will abbreviate the story into points.
    There is alleged to be an ancient variety of grape called Noha said to be the only "natural grape".
    It is said to have very interesting properties.
    (I have looked to see what may be found for grape varieties and this did not come up. Perhaps someone who lives in grape growing country can look into this)
    It is said to be the grape used to make "greal", which is also "san-greal".
    San meaning holy (as an ancient term, in modern spanish, san means saint) and greal meaning the drink.
    This has given rise to the whole grail legends, the search for the holy grail an ancient cup and sang-real which is royal blood.
    But these are alleged to be mistakes as the search was really for the holy drink which was in the grail and the search for the cup was in fact the search for the drink which the cup contained.
    The drink was said to give those who drank of it enlarged capacity of thought and other curious effects.

    In any case, I have thought this to a curious story and one I cannot verify on the web, so I figured that perhaps this would be of interest to the stellar minds who frequent this forum. Maybe someone will find out something of interest about this .
     
  2. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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  3. shawn

    shawn New Member

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    From the first site:
    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica][/FONT]
     
  4. immortalitylost

    immortalitylost Say Meow.

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  5. shawn

    shawn New Member

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  6. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Yours is an interesting version of the grail story.

    One story I have heard is that when the last king of Israel was carried away captive by the armies of Nebuchadnezzar, his sons were are killed in front of his eyes, and then Nebuchadnezzar ordered the king's eyes put out and he remained a captive for the rest of his life. So much of the story is fairly well understood by traditional Bible scholars. But a lesser known part of the story suggests that the prophet Jeremiah and his scribe Baruch carried the daughters (two?) of this king away into exile, and they went west. The story I heard focussed on the daughter who was married to an Irish king and settled in the region of Tara in Ireland, but the other daughter is mentioned in passing as having been married to a king in (modern) Spain. I have wondered through the years if there were a twin story to tell the tale of that daughter of the king of Israel...and it seems you may have stumbled on it.

    Yet another alternative story suggests that Jesus didn't die on the cross, or that even if he did his wife (presumed to be Mary Magdelaine) and family (mother, uncle and entourage) and possibly child(ren) went into exile. Alternate versions of the story suggest the South of England, somewhere in France and possibly Spain / Portugal. Which helps fuel the Arthurian legends of the Knights of the Roundtable trying to retrieve the Grail.

    Seeing a Spanish / Latin association with the contents of the Grail does present some intrigue to add to the story.
     
  7. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Staff Member

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    Indeed, and the story of Joseph of Aramathea is covered on the main site:
    joseph of aramathea and the legend of glastonbury - interfaith.org
     
  8. pohaikawahine

    pohaikawahine Elder Member

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    There are many drinks that are mind expanding and can open the mind to what is called the spirit world. If you haven't already read it, check out Jeremy Narby's "The Cosmic Serpent - DNA and the Origins of Knowledge" about his studies of 'ayahuasca' a drink used by the shamen in parts of Peru. It is believed that the soul leaves the body and ascends to the sky via a ladder, vine, rope, twister rope ladder, spiral staircase, etc.

    In the South Pacific and Hawaii we have a drink called "kava" or "awa" referred to as the "food of the gods" because it opens your mind to the heavens or the world of spirit. It has a tranquilizing narcotic effect on the brain. It use to be used only by healers and was considered sacred. Now it is pretty much misused by many people as a way to get 'high'.

    Even "woad" used to make a particular dye was used by the early Celts before a battle - it is a hullucinogenic and certainly make warriors very brave turning them into raving lunatics before a battle.

    In the Temple of Apollo the oracle at Delphi enhaled vapours emitted from a fault line below - they were said to open the mind to knowledge.

    Soma - the name for both moon and its light, also considered to be the primordial substance out of which the created world began is a drink called the "elixir of immortality" a divine drink conferring immortality on gods and men.

    Rye Ergot - thought to have caused the symptoms of bewitchment in the Witches of Salem. Rumi wrote (supposedly about rye ergot) "Alas! the forbidden fruits were eaten, And thereby the warm life of reason congealed. A grain of wheat eclipsed the sun of Adam, Like as the Dragon's tail dulls the brightness of the moon."

    And there is much much more. But back to the Holy Grail and San Greal. The search for the grail is a search for paradise (the land of milk and honey). The Grail is variously described as a cup, a dish, a stone, or a jewel. It possesses the quality of helping us to see clearly and those that stand in its presence are changed from that moment onward and will be healed. Further it is said that those that meditate on the themes and images surrounding the Grail can enable its visionary presence to flow into their daily lives. And there remains only one question "whom does the grail serve". Which brings me back to drinks that open our minds and allow the energy to flow through the seven energy points in the body upward into the brain. One story related to the Grail tells of a quest by Arthur - "they sail in a magical ship, through stormy waters to Annwn in search of a magical vessel.....there are seven towers, or "caers" in this place, in each of which is a different challenge to be overcome." Wonderful, wonderful stories filled with symbols and meanings within meanings. So is it possible a special wine or drink is involved - yes, but it only opens a door to the real search. In the Song of the Taliesin, a Bard and an initiate, he sings in part "I have drunk of the awen, from the Cauldron of Inspiration" - could that be Noha? I love these stories. He Hawai'i Au, poh
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 2, 2009
  9. shawn

    shawn New Member

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    Thanks pohaikawahine for the overview.
    These stories are fascinating and filled with symbolism.
    But by what other means would an intrepid explorer describe the things they have seen/experienced?
    One is left with parables and symbols as we have not the adequate words for such things.
    The intimation that such experiences were available via a variety of grape are also very intriguing.
     
  10. nativeastral

    nativeastral fluffy future

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    mmm in vino veritas; Persian astronomer Omar al Khayyam of Nishapur d.1123 wrote 'Quatrains' in an early existentialist style,

    You know, my friend, how bravely in my house
    for a new marriage l did make carouse;
    divorced old barren reason from my bed.
    and took the daughter of the vine for spouse.

    For is and is not, though with rule and line,
    and up and down by logic, l define,
    of all that one should care to fathom, l
    was never deep in anything but wine.

    Index to Poetry - the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam
     
  11. pohaikawahine

    pohaikawahine Elder Member

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    The Grape that can with Logic absolute
    The Two-and-Seventy jarring Sects confute:
    The subtle Alchemist that in a Trice
    Life's leaden Metal into Gold transmute.

    XLIII The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam

    Spiritual Interpretation (by Paramahansa Yogananda)

    "The ever-new bliss and self-realization born of God-contact bestow on the awakened soul the conviction of divine wisdom and intuition-saturated reason that can discern truth and settle all inner doubts arising from the contradictory theological teachings of various "isms." This divine consciousness, with its heavenly bliss, is the subtle alchemist that instantly transmutes the base lead of prosaic mundane life into the radiant gold of unending happiness."

    Practrical Application (by Paramahansa Yoganada)

    "In this quatrain, Khyyam again distinctly shows that the grape or wine has a symbolic meaning in his philosophy. No literal grape, nor the drinking of wine, could confute the contradictions of various theologies.

    Self-realization alone can resolve all questions about truth, for it transcends the limited intellect and provides the proof of direct experience. It brings not only wisdom, but the joy of a peaceful attitude of mind. This even-mindedness, when maintained by regular deep meditation, removes the boredom, disappointment, and sorrow from everyday life, making it instead a very interesting and enjoyable experience of the soul."

    Even the drinking of the elixir can be symbolic - it does not require the mind altering drink to reach the inner sanctum or the place that houses the holy grail. It is the search. He Hawai'i Au, poh

    p.s. Phyllis - mahalo nui for correcting my errors and typos. I really appreciate it.
     
  12. nativeastral

    nativeastral fluffy future

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    then theres dionysus
    [SIZE=+2]A theologian explains Dionysos: Teiresias in the Bacchae[/SIZE]
    • [SIZE=+1]Here is how Teiresias explains Dionysos to the skeptical Pentheus:[/SIZE]
      • [SIZE=+1]This new divinity whom you ridicule—no words of mine could adequately express the ascendancy he is destined to achieve through the length and breadth of Hellas. There are two powers, young man, which are supreme in human affairs: first, the goddess Demeter: she is the Earth—call her by what name you will; and she supplies human being with solid food. Second, Dionysos the son of Semele: the blessing he provides is the counterpart to the blessing of bread; he discovered and bestowed on men the service of drink, the juice that streams from the vine-clusters; men have but to take their fill of wine, and the sufferings of an unhappy race are banished, each day’s troubles are forgotten in sleep—indeed this is our only cure for the weariness of life. Dionysos, himself a god, is poured out in offering to the gods; so that through him humankind receives blessing.[/SIZE][SIZE=+1](Euripides, Bacchae 272-285, trans. Philip Vellacott)[/SIZE]

    Brooklyn College/Classics 0.1/Dionysos at Athens


    Dionysus [along with Apollo being the sons of Zeus] had many festivals..

    'The name Anthesteria, according to the account of it given above, is usually connected with ανθη ("flowers," or the "bloom" of the grape, cognate to Sanskrit andhas "Soma plant")'

    Anthesteria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
  13. shawn

    shawn New Member

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    I think that if such a variety of grape has really survived to this age, it would be a jealously guarded secret.

    All the more so when one considers the numerous predators who actively seek out those who would commit such a "sin" as to enhance and enlarge their perception via sacred vegetables.

    Perhaps in this age of gene-splicing and nano-tech, it may be possible to recreate such things.
     
  14. pohaikawahine

    pohaikawahine Elder Member

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    Interesting that Dionysus was brought up. Symbolically he has a connection with the Legends of the Holy Grail - not directly, but symbolically.

    Dionysus is one of the 12 Olympians, Gods of Mount Olympus. The mountain is a symbol for the human head - the place where we meet g-d face to face, or the place of revelations (these are my interpretations). Wine is a metaphor for the estacsy one reaches when one moves the spiralling energy up through the seven energy centers of the body to the center of the brain (the location of the third eye). Mount Olympus, 12 Gods. The brain has 12 pairs of cranial nerves that operate the system that moves this energy.

    King Arthur and the 12 knights of the round table (the round table could also be a symbol for the human skull). In some versions of the story and artwork, the holy grail floats just above the center of the round table and it is covered by a veil. The human brain is also covered by a veil (referred to as the arachnoid - a web like weaving - the spider's web). The 12 pairs of cranial nerves work their magic via the vibrations in the arachnoid.

    This is all a simple explanation of a very complex system - but I think the connections to an ancient line of knowledge are found in these symbols. Follow the path to Rosslyn and you will pass through seven ancient sites. The 7's and the 12's are part of the clues. (Rosslyn has been referred to as the guardian of the secrets of the holy grail - the seven sacred sites are currently Christian churches, but at one time were reportedly ancient Druid sites).

    And the regathering of the twelve tribes - what is that all about? I believe that it is related to the time in which we cross the barriers of differencies and find our common ground as people. Many cultures hold the ancient knowledge, but we have forgotten how to access it. It waits for us to uncover the it by peeling off one veil at a time. That is what I believe is the responsibility of all seekers. He Hawai'i Au, pohaikawahine

    My Hawaiian name, Pohaikawahine means literally "a circle of women" - it is related to a circle of 12 women that hold the knowledge to the ancient ways. The name was given to me, but it is my responsibility to seek the answers and ask the right questions.
     
  15. earl

    earl ?

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  16. shawn

    shawn New Member

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    Maybe it wasn't a grape, but perhaps it was a psychedelic grape.
    The rulers still have bans on such enlightening things.
     
  17. pohaikawahine

    pohaikawahine Elder Member

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    in the comparative studies section Dauer just posted a connection to a tape called the "Kiss of God" - a discussion between Rabbi Zalman and Father Thomas Keating - there is a comment that "the kiss is better than the wine".... maybe that is what this is really all about .... he hawai'a au, pohaikawahine
     

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