The 4 types of Sins

[soleil10]

my bad used the wrong word...all fallen, all not worthy, all sinners...I'll say it again so I'm clear. I don't believe in original sin.historical resentment??

So you are born without its inclinations and effects ?

Oh so the black man is put down because of the sins of his seven generations above him??

That is a strange example.
I know that people who died with resentment due to the fault of my ancestors may be quite resentful against me, their descendant.
We see conflicts and wars resurging based on centuries old conflicts that were unresolved in the heart of people.
No one died. We live forever. Our physical body is temporary. No one is going anywhere.

I'll buy that, but that is not the sin of my father being wreaked upon me without my being able to do something about it. I do not inherit my future...I make it along the way. Yes I play with the cards that are dealt but I still make choices.

When we make good decisions, overcome inherited weakness it benefit our ancestors and help them to advance spiritually. They do not have their physical body anymore. We do and we can do good actions that benefit them.

During the last days their is a great potential for our ancestors to benefit of the merit of the age like the time of Jesus. This is why there is more confusion and strange things going on.

Only one facet of the porn industry? What Industry (singular) is larger (more money, more assets) than religion (singular)
.

The porn industry is only one small facet. Wil, adding all the facets of evil actions and their consequences that are activated by lust is endless.
Your attack on religion is strange to me because a lot of good has come from truly religious people. It is the 20/80 rule like in everything

 

[wil]

Your attack on religion is strange to me because a lot of good has come from truly religious people. It is the 20/80 rule like in everything

While I didn't attack, I simply asked what industry is larger...now if you deem that an attack...those are your issues.

However...80/20 rule?

please expound...now I know there are many who feel that religions cause most death and destruction and war...so get ready.

 

[soleil10]

While I didn't attack, I simply asked what industry is larger...now if you deem that an attack...those are your issues.
However...80/20 rule?please expound...now I know there are many who feel that religions cause most death and destruction and war...so get ready.

This thread is about the 4 types of sins. I like to stay on that subject and not disgress.

 

[wil]

me thinks you are the only one that agrees with your orignal post. Some say more, some say less, some don't define sin the way you do.

 

[Dream]

I'll buy that, but that is not the sin of my father being wreaked upon me without my being able to do something about it. I do not inherit my future...I make it along the way. Yes I play with the cards that are dealt but I still make choices.

But? I totally agree with you, I think.

It isn't a sin that oozes onto you from your parents. Its just that you have to play the hand you are dealt, so your culture can only change positively by degrees: If I had been born in the deep south 150 years ago, I might not have been able to accept that we need women to have a voice in government. Because there was a process of innovation and improvement that came before me, I am able to understand. I can be who I am today because of that, so it is my responsiblity to go on from there and improve things when it is in my power. If I don't then I am causing stagnation, because "He who is slack in his work is brother to him that destroys." So if I sit still, then the iniquity of my culture increases until it eventually is less valuable, not a good place.

me thinks you are the only one that agrees with your orignal post. Some say more, some say less, some don't define sin the way you do.

Yeah, its difficult Soleil to see where you are coming from. I really do think you are referring to iniquity when you mention 'Heredetive' sin, but it seems like the same thing as collective sin. The 'Original sin' is a mysterious topic that I cannot really get a verbal explanation for, mainly because its a Catholic item. Its not compatible with rationalization outside of the Catholic fold, like to get it you'd have to get consubstantiation or so it would seem from recent conversations.

 

[Faithfulservant]

heredity sin would be like how alcohololism runs in the family.. or what some would call generational curses

 

[soleil10]

However...80/20 rule?
please expound...now I know there are many who feel that religions cause most death and destruction and war...so get ready.

By the way, this is a very good example of past resentment unsolved.

People that have died at the hands of inquisitors under torture or even buried alive went to the spiritual word carrying tremendous resentments.

The recent war in Serbia, Bosnia, Kosovo etc is another example of past resentments. When I went to Israel/Palestine and came back so depressed. It took me 3 days before I stepped out of my home.

A discussion on past war and destruction is not a place I like to be. It attracks a lot of these spirits.

 

[shawn]

Sin is an act or thought which violate heavenly law

They are many kinds of sins but we can classify them as

-Original Sin : Only the Messiah (New Adam) can solve it

-Hereditary Sin: We are inheriting the good and bad from our own ancestors.

-Collective Sin: We are co-reponsible within our communities and nations

-Personal Sin: These are our individual violations

This all hangs on how a person defines what sin is.
One person will say that it is one thing and another will say something different.
I don't believe in "original sin" ( a crock 'o beans designed to prop up certain creeds) so I will only agree with your 4th definition.
Individuals make mistakes and these can be viewed as being sins (mistakes/bad choices).
As for collective sin, this is contingent on circumstantial facts.
Did the individual in question agree with the collective actions or not?
If they did agree and further supported such activities then they are co-responsible.
But if they were conscientious objectors and were opposed to whatever the action may be, then how can they be said to be jointly to blame?
They cannot.
To say that they are, regardless, is unjust.
Hereditary sins, LOL, hereditary defects I will go along with either genetic or in their thinking and belief structures.
But Hereditary sins is a joke.

 

[soleil10]

Hereditary sins, LOL, hereditary defects I will go along with either genetic or in their thinking and belief structures.
But Hereditary sins is a joke.

EX 20:5 "Don't bow down and worship idols. I am the LORD your God, and I demand all your love. If you reject me, I will punish you for 3 or 4 generations"

Shawn, there are examples in the bible of hereditary sins. It is not a joke. To who a lot is given, a lot is expected.

 

[shawn]

EX 20:5 "Don't bow down and worship idols. I am the LORD your God, and I demand all your love. If you reject me, I will punish you for 3 or 4 generations"

Shawn, there are examples in the bible of hereditary sins. It is not a joke. To who a lot is given, a lot is expected.

Well my friend, you are free to read that book and interpret it in a literal fashion.
You can believe that that is the only way to read it and the interpretations you have accepted are the only way to see things if you wish.
You can debate all you want....it is your right and you should exercise that right.
I am exercising my right as well and we just disagree.
That's fine.
I still like you and support your right to voice your opinions.

 

[soleil10]

Well my friend, you are free to read that book and interpret it in a literal fashion.You can believe that that is the only way to read it and the interpretations you have accepted are the only way to see things if you wish.You can debate all you want....it is your right and you should exercise that right.I am exercising my right as well and we just disagree.That's fine.I still like you and support your right to voice your opinions.

That verse is a pretty straight forward statement. All throughout the bible we get the same message.
Gen:15 As the sun was setting, Abram fell into a deep sleep, and a thick and dreadful darkness came over him. Then the LORD said to him, "Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own, and they will be enslaved and mistreated four hundred years.

The 400 years in slavery for the Chosen people in Egypte is another example of the consequences of sin paid by our descendants

 

[soleil10]

I am so slow to catch on. Ok, 4 types of sin. Would it be possible to split two of these and come up with six? Then they would be the number of man! But there are four. That does not sound right to me. But that is just a petty opinion and really is ephemeral -- could just be intuition.
I'm going to slightly disagree with you Wil about the hereditary sin in the Bible. If you are talking about iniquity, the concept of iniquity is presented in the Torah to keep people aware that a culture must continually innovate to keep from backsliding. Just my opinion, I don't think it was ever about DNA. Cultures/nations/cities tend to degenerate until they self destruct. This is due (I am assuming) to iniquity in the cultures, or a human tendency to backward slide into ignorance and cruelty. Actually I do think I have noticed this tendency, and it does seem like a law of nature. Torah is put forward as a way for Abraham's descendents to continue moving forward, rather than self-destructively backward.
I think this also does not agree with Rev. Moon's interpretation, but no insult is meant. He is dead, and so I cannot discuss it with him.

The original sin is the root
Hereditary sin is the trunk
Collective sins are the branches
Individual sins are the leaves

Rev Moon is alive and well.

 

[greymare]

Sorry Sol, not impressed with rev moon.
If we are responsible for all this sin both past and present we might as well suicide right now.

 

[seattlegal]

EX 20:5 "Don't bow down and worship idols. I am the LORD your God, and I demand all your love. If you reject me, I will punish you for 3 or 4 generations"

Shawn, there are examples in the bible of hereditary sins. It is not a joke. To who a lot is given, a lot is expected.

It's not quite as simple as that. Ezekiel 18 explains it quite clearly. The son does not inherit the sins of his father, nor does a son get a free pass because his father was righteous. The "hereditary sin" is the perpetuation of the belief in hereditary sin. The belief in hereditary sin is a type of idolatry, that God warns the nation of Israel against, that makes each person who believes in it and perpetuates it worthy of death. It begins with "You will no longer use this proverb in Israel," and ends with, "Repent and turn from all your transgressions, so they will not be a stumbling block that causes your punishment. 31 Throw off all the transgressions you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. (AF) Why should you die, house of Israel?"

Unmistakably clear. No excuses that "God's way is not fair!" Each person is responsible for their own sins, not their ancestors' sins , nor their descendents' sins.

Get over it.
Ezekiel 18

1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "What do you mean by using this proverb concerning the land of Israel:

The fathers eat sour grapes, (A)
and the children's teeth are set on edge? (B)
3 As I live"—[this is] the declaration of the Lord GOD —"you will no longer use this proverb in Israel. (C) 4 Look, every life belongs to Me. (D) The life of the father is like the life of the son—both belong to Me. The person who sins is the one who will die. (E)
5 "Now suppose a man is righteous and does what is just and right: 6 He does not eat at the mountain [shrines] (F) or raise his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel. He does not defile his neighbor's wife (G) or come near a woman during her menstrual impurity. (H) 7 He doesn't oppress anyone (I) but returns his collateral to the debtor. (J) He does not commit robbery, but gives his bread to the hungry (K) and covers the naked with clothing. 8 He doesn't lend at interest or for profit (L) but keeps his hand from wrongdoing and carries out true justice between men. (M) 9 He follows My statutes and keeps My ordinances, acting faithfully. Such a person is righteous; he will certainly live." (N) [This is] the declaration of the Lord GOD .
10 "Now suppose the man has a violent son, who sheds blood (O) and does any of these [things], 11 though the father has done none of them. Indeed, when the son eats at the mountain [shrines] and defiles his neighbor's wife, 12 and [when] he oppresses the poor and needy, commits robbery, and does not return collateral, and [when] he raises his eyes to the idols, commits abominations, (P) 13 and lends at interest or for profit, will he live? He will not live! Since he has committed all these abominations, he will certainly die. His blood will be on him. (Q)
14 "Now suppose he has a son who sees all the sins his father has committed, and though he sees them, he does not do likewise. 15 He does not eat at the mountain [shrines] or raise his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel. He does not defile his neighbor's wife. 16 He doesn't oppress anyone, hold collateral, or commit robbery. He gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with clothing. 17 He keeps his hand from [harming] the poor, not taking interest or profit [on a loan]. He practices My ordinances and follows My statutes. Such a person will not die for his father's iniquity. He will certainly live.
18 "As for his father, he will die for his own iniquity because he practiced fraud, robbed [his] brother, and did what was wrong among his people. (R) 19 But you may ask: Why doesn't the son suffer punishment for the father's iniquity? (S) Since the son has done what is just and right, carefully observing all My statues, he will certainly live. 20 The person who sins is the one who will die. (T) A son won't suffer punishment for the father's iniquity, and a father won't suffer punishment for the son's iniquity. (U) The righteousness of the righteous person will be on him, (V) and the wickedness of the wicked person will be on him. (W)
21 "Now if the wicked person turns from all the sins he has committed, (X) keeps all My statutes, and does what is just and right, he will certainly live; he will not die. 22 None of the transgressions he has committed will be held against him. (Y) He will live because of the righteousness he has practiced. (Z) 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked?" (AA) [This is] the declaration of the Lord GOD . "Instead, don't I [take pleasure] when he turns from his ways and lives? 24 But when a righteous person turns from his righteousness (AB) and practices iniquity, committing the same abominations that the wicked do, will he live? None of the righteous acts he did will be remembered. (AC) He will die because of the treachery he has engaged in and the sin he has committed.
25 "But you say: The Lord's way isn't fair. (AD) Now listen, house of Israel: Is it My way that is unfair? Instead, isn't it your ways that are unfair? 26 When a righteous person turns from his righteousness and practices iniquity, he will die for this. He will die because of the iniquity he has practiced. 27 But if a wicked person turns from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will preserve his life. 28 He will certainly live because he thought it over and turned from all the transgressions he had committed; he will not die. 29 But the house of Israel says: The Lord's way isn't fair. Is it My ways that are unfair, house of Israel? Instead, isn't it your ways that are unfair? 30 "Therefore, house of Israel, I will judge each one of you according to his ways." (AE) [This is] the declaration of the Lord GOD . "Repent and turn from all your transgressions, so they will not be a stumbling block that causes your punishment. 31 Throw off all the transgressions you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. (AF) Why should you die, house of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in anyone's death." [This is] the declaration of the Lord GOD . "So repent and live!
​

 

[soleil10]

Sorry Sol, not impressed with rev moon.
If we are responsible for all this sin both past and present we might as well suicide right now.

It sound funny the way you say. We can easily feel that way. This is why we need the Messiah (new Adam and Eve) and should hang on to his rope of salvation.

In the bible, God looks for the most rightheous to become his champions representing humanity ( Noah, Abraham, Moses, etc). He asked them to fulfilled specific tasks in order to build a new foundation of faith, reverse what happened during the human fall and make a foundation for the Messiah to come.

It is incrediblely slow since it took 4000 biblical years just to prepare for 1 man, Jesus, to come as the second Adam. Still, he was killed but he offered his life willingly through his excruciating death and even descended into hell to looking to liberate every one.

Greymare, committing suicide would just make it worse, believe me

 

[Dream]

The original sin is the root
Hereditary sin is the trunk
Collective sins are the branches
Individual sins are the leaves

Rev Moon is alive and well.

Thanks for your reply Soleil. Just goes to show how little I know. Somebody told me he died in the 60's, so sorry I said he was dead. I've never actually met a member of the Korean unification church movement. Sometime I will take a look at Divine Principle so I'm not flying blind.

 

[soleil10]

It's not quite as simple as that. Ezekiel 18 explains it quite clearly. The son does not inherit the sins of his father, nor does a son get a free pass because his father was righteous. The "hereditary sin" is the perpetuation of the belief in hereditary sin. The belief in hereditary sin is a type of idolatry, that God warns the nation of Israel against, that makes each person who believes in it and perpetuates it worthy of death. It begins with "You will no longer use this proverb in Israel," and ends with, "Repent and turn from all your transgressions, so they will not be a stumbling block that causes your punishment. 31 Throw off all the transgressions you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. (AF) Why should you die, house of Israel?"
Unmistakably clear. No excuses that "God's way is not fair!" Each person is responsible for their own sins, not their ancestors' sins, nor their descendents' sins. Get over it. Ezekiel 18

Seattle, of course we are responsible and accountable for our own sins, each one of us individually. Ezekiel clearly states that we can cut ourselves from the past

It does not mean that the sins and debt of the past do not have to be restored or healed somehow

Greater love motivates us to make reparation for the sins, beyond our own, starting in our lineage and wipe out the past resentment our ancestors may have caused in order to liberate them and their victims. They are hoping that we can help them.

You wrote " The belief in hereditary sin is a type of idolatry " Then Jesus was practicing idolatry when he accepted the course of the cross to take upon himself the past sins of all humanity. They were not his sins.

Hereditary sins does not mean that they are our own but our help is needed to liberate our own ancestors who have already past on.

Here is an example. If you see someone repenting to a victim for what his child or parent has done, they are dealing with this issue.

In many countries we see different communities repenting and making reconciliation for the past deeds of their ancestors. A lot of healing and liberation takes place then.

Inherited sin is debt from the past. We should forgive but also asked to be forgiven.

Even God who has been the most mistreated has grief in His heart.

 

[soleil10]

Thanks for your reply Soleil. Just goes to show how little I know. Somebody told me he died in the 60's, so sorry I said he was dead. I've never actually met a member of the Korean unification church movement. Sometime I will take a look at Divine Principle so I'm not flying blind.

No problem Dream

 

[Dream]

Ezekiel 18 explains it quite clearly. The son does not inherit the sins of his father, nor does a son get a free pass because his father was righteous. The "hereditary sin" is the perpetuation of the belief in hereditary sin. The belief in hereditary sin is a type of idolatry, that God warns the nation of Israel against, that makes each person who believes in it and perpetuates it worthy of death.

You wrote " The belief in hereditary sin is a type of idolatry " Then Jesus was practicing idolatry when he accepted the course of the cross to take upon himself the past sins of all humanity. They were not his sins.

Soleil, her argument is extremely strong, coming from a greater authority than the NT. I think it is up to you to explain why Jesus could accept such sins. That is how it works I think. The lesser authority cannot be used to dismiss the greater. You could also try to explain Ezekiel or you could just say that it is a mystery, but you cannot logically dismiss what SG is saying. Ezekiel comes before.

 

[shawn]

seattlegal:
1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "What do you mean by using this proverb concerning the land of Israel:

The fathers eat sour grapes, (A)
and the children's teeth are set on edge? (B)
3 As I live"—[this is] the declaration of the Lord GOD —"you will no longer use this proverb in Israel. (C) 4 Look, every life belongs to Me. (D) The life of the father is like the life of the son—both belong to Me. The person who sins is the one who will die. (E)

The whole post by SG is quite an excellent rebuttal and does upset the apple cart.
What say ye soleil10?