Only one God but many spirits, so...

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Friend2men

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Asalaamu Aleikum y'all.

This question from a Christian is directed to Muslims with theological insight, if anyone would like to tackle it I would be grateful for replies.

In the great Shahada , 'There is no God but Allah...'

Following this declaration, the Quran text acknowledges multiple spirits, the jinn, the angels. Only one God, but many other entities.

Regarding the Quran and its source and authority: It is understood to be the words of Allah dictacted through Gabriel, and then to Muhammad pbuh.

In Christian and Jewish thought, this Quranic inspiration would be considered a spirit of prophecy. And we are instructed to test the spirts rather than to accept all of them, and it is understood that there is only one God but many spirits who impersonate Him, and some false prophets.

In effect, the Shahada states 'one God,' but the reality of life is that there are many spirits. And Islam maps the spirit of the Quran to God, making the assumption but without testing the spirit, and insisting that others who are non-believers should also agree.

In Islam it is simpy is assumed that the spirit in the Quran is synonymous with Allah. Is this correct?

Again, in every religious tradition, there are more spirits than one.

So, this equating of 'one God' with 'one spirit' seems to be a problem.

Even in the context of the Quran there are at least two spirits, that of Allah and Shaitan, both of whom speak verses.

IN my understanding, God is the God of spirits, Who sends multiple spirits and angels (who sometimes act like spirits in giving instruction and sometimes take the form of a man giving instruction). Sometimes God sends a man an 'excelent spirit,' but sometimes a spiritual cursing, or a spirit of strong delusion, as God wills. So, we cannot assume that that a spirit speaking through a prophet is the spirit of God.

Perhaps Islamic scholars have addressed question and someone can enlighten me. Many thanks and peace to all.
 
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Friend2men said:
Asalaamu Aleikum y'all.
Click to expand...

Walaikum Asalam :)

This question from a Christian is directed to Muslims with theological insight,
Click to expand...
(lol) we're in short supply these days..


Following this declaration, the Quran text acknowledges multiple spirits, the jinn, the angels. Only one God, but many other entities.
Click to expand...
God created spirits. He is another "entity" entirely.

Again, in every religious tradition, there are more spirits than one. So, this equating of 'one God' with 'one spirit' seems to be a problem.
Click to expand...
Is it a bigger problem than equating One God with "one" trinity? ;)

In Christian and Jewish thought, this Quranic inspiration would be considered a spirit of prophecy. And we are instructed to test the spirts rather than to accept all of them, and it is understood that there is only one God but many spirits who impersonate Him, and some false prophets.
Click to expand...
Did Moses (pbuh) "test" the "spirit" in the burning bush?
Did Jesus (pbuh) not refer to Deuteronomy when he said
`Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'
(Matthew 4:7 & Luke 4:12 / Deuteronomy 6:16)

The "testing" is for God to do, not mortals. There are no "proofs" in
matters of faith. There is no empirical evidence holding up belief.
The initial step is always a leap of faith.


Even in the context of the Quran there are at least two spirits, that of Allah and Shaitan, both of whom speak verses.
Click to expand...
There is no God vs. Satan dichotomy in Islam,
like there is in Christianity, or Zoroastrianism etc.
God is the only "player" on this chess board.


In effect, the Shahada states 'one God,' but the reality of life is that there are many spirits. And Islam maps the spirit of the Quran to God, making the assumption but without testing the spirit, and insisting that others who are non-believers should also agree.
Click to expand...
Not according to the Quran.

2:256
Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error:
whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most
trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth
all things.
​


In Islam it is simpy is assumed that the spirit in the Quran is synonymous with Allah. Is this correct?
Click to expand...
Yep. Just as the case with the OT and Yahweh.


IN my understanding, God is the God of spirits, Who sends multiple spirits and angels (who sometimes act like spirits in giving instruction and sometimes take the form of a man giving instruction). Sometimes God sends a man an 'excelent spirit,' but sometimes a spiritual cursing, or a spirit of strong delusion, as God wills. So, we cannot assume that that a spirit speaking through a prophet is the spirit of God.
Click to expand...
Why did you assume there is a "God" in the first place?

If you want empirical evidence to support the idea that the Quran was inspired by God to a prophet in Arabia, you must first demonstrate the case for the existence of God. (which you cant). And then demonstrate that He indeed has sent such revelations to others before, like at Mount Sinai, for example.

You are analyzing transcendental issues with rationality.
 
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p.s.

@ Friend2men

Just to be clear:- in Islam, God is not a "spirit" in the same way that Christianity has understood this term. (Because Christianity equates the "holy spirit" as part of a trinity in which God is included.) In Islam, God is an "absolutely transcendent" entity. Transcending even the "spirit" which He has created.
 
I would suggest an Islamic forum, knowledge of Islam is a bit thin on the ground here :)
 
Just an observsation from someone thats been away from the forum for a long time.

As someone that only spend 2 years in Islam and never even found the spiritual aspect of Islam (as you said on another thread) you seem to have a need to give a lot of opinions against Islam.
 
Perhaps it is intimidation.
many in North America are worried about Islamic influence as there is an agenda with legal ramifications which would change the legal environment we all live in if Islam would gain the upper hand on the political and religious fronts.
I see that both christianity and islam both are very pushy in that regard and have a long history to look at (proven track record) of a lot of oppression of people who think differently, including confiscation of property, coercion, torture and murder.
So I think people are justified in being worried about such influences having positions of power in the nation.
Lots of our laws in North America and Europe are in place entirely due to the religious dispositions of powerful factions and individuals.
Those laws in some cases are, to be blunt, quite stupid, and have no place in an enlightened society (for instance laws regarding consumption, ie: foods and supplements) and the reason they are in place (according to the gov't who passed them) is due entirely to the religious attitudes of the time.
 
Peace to you/assalamu alaykum--

To me Shahada simply states that there is Only One God. A person can call 'god' anything they desire, but that idol of theirs is not divine, has no powers and is itself created. One True God is above all and everything is created by Him, and He is not created.

Imagine that there is only one human being on the whole wide Earth. And lets say animals can talk :) So, a dog may say to another dog: "Hey, we are all human, no, just different form?" The other dog may reply: "There is no human, but that one human." And his statement would be true. Because although animals (in this case of mine, imagined talking dogs) are living, breathing creatures they are not like a human.

Ok, I know my example is kind of cheesy (sorry!) but the point I was trying to make is lets not make Shahada be something it is not and lets not make it 'say' something it is not stating.

Peace :)
 
Muslimwoman said:
Just an observsation from someone thats been away from the forum for a long time.

As someone that only spend 2 years in Islam and never even found the spiritual aspect of Islam (as you said on another thread) you seem to have a need to give a lot of opinions against Islam.
Click to expand...

if you say so ;)

but my point in this thread was if you want an Islamic perspective you would be better off going to an Islamic forum as some people here have made Islam into what they want it to be not what it is.


Rammadan Mubarack BTW :)
 
Asalaam Aleikum,

Thanks to all for these thoughtful replies, which I am only now getting to belatedly.



c0de said:
.



Walaikum Asalam :)

(lol) we're in short supply these days..


God created spirits. He is another "entity" entirely.

Is it a bigger problem than equating One God with "one" trinity? ;)


The Trinity is an historical dogma of the 3rd century, one which I think many Christians either do not understand, accept, or care about. Historically, some Christians have also disputed it and suffered for it. In this way, perhaps these Christians' beliefs are closer to Islam. The trinity theology is part of an old formal creed we are "stuck" with thru tradition, and for many centuries it has not been much of an issue. However, because resurgent Islam has made it an issue, perhaps more Christians will rise to the occasion and either defend or amend it. Perhaps interesting discussions will result.


Did Moses (pbuh) "test" the "spirit" in the burning bush?

Did Jesus (pbuh) not refer to Deuteronomy when he said
`Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'
(Matthew 4:7 & Luke 4:12 / Deuteronomy 6:16)

My answer to this is that a burning bush would certainly carry its own bona fides! No one would question such spectacular apparitions. This and many other miracles that sometimes accompany prophets are so patently godly that the audiences would never imagine questioning the divine glory.

However, the case of a more 'routine' prophet speaking by the holy spirit is entirely different. Here, some caution and discernment is required, and this testing of prophets is also mentioned in Deut.

Each of us should be silently, inwardly caution of a spirit, but should not vocalize a challenge. Those spirits speaking through prophets should not be tested or judged verbally -- this is a direct instruction.

However, in hearing the words, people should also be discretely cautious. The instructions are clear again. One should never accuse the prophet of being demonic, as that risks unpardonable blasphemy. But hearers should also watch for certain telltale signs which give away whether the prophet is speaking in God or not. These signs are mentioned in Christian texts, both canonical and non-canonical e.g. the Didache.

Also, if God is speaking through the prophet, God will ensure that the words are fulfilled and that His purposes come to pass, and that signs are always produced. Some of the signs are unmistakable but others are intentioanlly ambiguous, depending on God's purposes.

The prophetic event itself 'belongs' to God, not the prophet, who is really more of a bystander. (That's my belief, not official christian dogma.)
--------------------------------

The "testing" is for God to do, not mortals. There are no "proofs" in
matters of faith. There is no empirical evidence holding up belief.
The initial step is always a leap of faith.


In my experience and those of some others I know, God does often give proofs, but again, He also gives us signs which are ambiguous. This is for His own reasons which are stated in our scriptures.
----------------------------

There is no God vs. Satan dichotomy in Islam,
like there is in Christianity, or Zoroastrianism etc.
God is the only "player" on this chess board.


Not according to the Quran.

2:256
Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error:
whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most
trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth
all things.
​


Yep. Just as the case with the OT and Yahweh.

------------------------------------------
Why did you assume there is a "God" in the first place?

If you want empirical evidence to support the idea that the Quran was inspired by God to a prophet in Arabia, you must first demonstrate the case for the existence of God. (which you cant). And then demonstrate that He indeed has sent such revelations to others before, like at Mount Sinai, for example.

You are analyzing transcendental issues with rationality.
Click to expand...

------------
My reply to the above issue about assuming God, is this.

I came to believe in God after one prayer to Him at the age of 16. Prior to that prayer, I did not care about God either way. I prayed because I read the words of Jesus, "Ask and you will receive, knock and the door will be opened." So I prayed and asked, and the door opened. So I have had many countless mystical experiences of God and Jesus since.

I cannot demonstrate God's existence, but I can testify to my own experiences, for what that is worth: God has demonstrated His existence to me! And I think He amply demonstrates His existence to those who seek Him and crave truth.

This still leaves unanswered the question of prophetic inspiration and whether it comes from God or another spirit.

In the mystical Christian belief which I (and many others) hold, there is virtually no need for prophets at all, because God reveals Himself to individuals at will, and communicates quite often, very directly and clearly.

This is mystical Christianity. Of course there are countless sects and mainstream Christians who subscribe to a different view. They relying on prophetic texts. Many Christian over the centuries have devise elaborate belief-systems based on a quirky reading of their bible. This practice is one reason Islam came along, I believe

The best exposition of my view is found in the gospel of Matthew and the writings of John, almost exclusively. Matthew presents the teachings of Jesus in original form. (Other gospels Mark and Luke 'corrupt' these, in my view.) John's gospel and letters followed the others several decades later. In these, he presents the finalized message which is this:

"First, you do not need teachers anymore! "(1Jn). Teacher are more a source of conflict and jealousy rivalry than of necessity (Jesus taught this, in Matthew). Jesus also taught "call no man teacher, and do not let yourself be called a teacher" because you now have only one teacher, the Lord."

Unfortunately, the vast majority of christians simply ignore Jesus and John on this -- the rebuke of which, I suspect, may be one reason why Islam was brought into being.

And the finalizing second point from John is this:

"If you keep the teachings and commandments of God, both He and Jesus will live within you."

This is really is the ultimate Christian experience. We have God within us, and we feel and sense and taste Him.

And this experience fulfills the original promise of the OT prophet Jeremiah 31, which states, "No longer shall a man teach his neighbor, saying, 'Know the Lord!' -- for they shall all know me, even from the greatest to the least."

It was Jesus who revealed, step-by-step, how this experience can be attained. After one enters this state, there is no more need for teachers or prophets.
 
Muslimwoman said:
Couldn't have explained it any better than c0de did.

This may help you understand:

What Is Meant by the Holy Spirit in the Qur'an? - IslamonLine.net - Ask The Scholar




Maybe that's why you spend so much time in the Islam boards G2G?
Click to expand...

---------------------------
Asalaamu Aleikum, Muslim woman. LOVE your AVATAR:p

Thank you for your reply.

I have read that Islamic thought on the Christian Holy Spirit is not completely uniform. One opinion is that the biblical Holy Spirit or Paraclete is actually the prophet Muhammad pbuh himself.

Jesus promised this 'Helper' would come, and this promise has been interpreted by (as I have heard) many Islamic scholars as a prophesy of the coming of Muhammad.

But the difficulty with that is that 600-700 years passed before Muhammad came. Thus, this view would not make sense in the context of Jesus' promise to the disciples.
 
Friend2men said:
Asalaamu Aleikum y'all.

This question from a Christian is directed to Muslims with theological insight, if anyone would like to tackle it I would be grateful for replies.

In the great Shahada , 'There is no God but Allah...'

Following this declaration, the Quran text acknowledges multiple spirits, the jinn, the angels. Only one God, but many other entities.

Regarding the Quran and its source and authority: It is understood to be the words of Allah dictacted through Gabriel, and then to Muhammad pbuh.

In Christian and Jewish thought, this Quranic inspiration would be considered a spirit of prophecy. And we are instructed to test the spirts rather than to accept all of them, and it is understood that there is only one God but many spirits who impersonate Him, and some false prophets.

In effect, the Shahada states 'one God,' but the reality of life is that there are many spirits. And Islam maps the spirit of the Quran to God, making the assumption but without testing the spirit, and insisting that others who are non-believers should also agree.
Click to expand...

Hi Friend2Men,

The 'spirit' in Islam is indeed 'tested' my friend and verified beyond doubt to indeed be what he or the Quran claimed him to be, which is, the angel Jibril who brought down the Quran by ALlah's leave

Friend2men said:
In Islam it is simpy is assumed that the spirit in the Quran is synonymous with Allah. Is this correct?
Click to expand...

not quite; the 'spirit' is a hundred percent created angel; a slave of ALlah who obeys the commands of ALlah and ALlah is the Creator and lord of the worlds who is beyond conceptualisation; the omnipotent

Friend2men said:
Again, in every religious tradition, there are more spirits than one.
Click to expand...

So, this equating of 'one God' with 'one spirit' seems to be a problem. [/QUOTE]

no problem there, for there is no 'equating' in the first place as explained

Friend2men said:
Even in the context of the Quran there are at least two spirits, that of Allah and Shaitan, both of whom speak verses.
Click to expand...

shaitan can be considered a 'spirit' [an evil spirit] but as explained, not ALlah for He is above these created things and concepts

Friend2men said:
IN my understanding, God is the God of spirits, Who sends multiple spirits and angels (who sometimes act like spirits in giving instruction and sometimes take the form of a man giving instruction). Sometimes God sends a man an 'excelent spirit,' but sometimes a spiritual cursing, or a spirit of strong delusion, as God wills. So, we cannot assume that that a spirit speaking through a prophet is the spirit of God.
Click to expand...

Indeed, but there is no 'assumption' there as explained, but verified certainty. And I think you might have got the islamic concept wrong as to how a prophet communicates Gods verses; unlike the Christian concept where 'the spirt of 'god' entered Jesus and spoke through him', in islam there is no such litterall 'speaking through one another'; God sent the angel Jibril to bring down the verses to muhammad [saw]; the verses got embedded in the Prophet's [saw] heart and he spoke them to his people ...

Friend2men said:
Perhaps Islamic scholars have addressed question and someone can enlighten me. Many thanks and peace to all.
Click to expand...

I am no Scholar at all, but I have attempted to give some of the 'verification methods' in the following links:

http://www.interfaith.org/forum/believers-who-are-they-11571.html#post216296

http://www.interfaith.org/forum/believers-who-are-they-11571-2.html

hope they help

And to that I'll add the following signs/evidences of the veracity of the Quran being indeed a Book from God Allmighty:

The Holy Quran is just too sublime, too miraculous, too perfect and too in accordance with like everything God would reveal - basically it is embedded with Divine signs - to be a creation of any of the creation, thus this alone indicates that it can only be from the lord of the Worlds, ALlah [swt]

Another thing that refutes the idea of it being form an 'evil spirit' is that, it is only filled with good upon good; surely evil spirits dont encourage people towards good? :)

And last but not least, check out the miraculous sounding recitation of the Holy verses:

YouTube - Mishary Al Afasy Ya Sin Part 1

A German spedudo gangsta, who did not even understand Arabic and who weren't muslim untill then... got reduced to tears when he heard it and knew there and then that these were the verses of God Allmighty:

YouTube - "Pseudo gangster"cries when listening to Quran - A German Convert to Islam

hope this helps :)
 
Yes, thanks. Your answers do help.

I have learned that Muslims believe the Holy Spirit is identical to Jibral the angel. So, the idea of inspiration in the two faiths seems very similar.

Also, in the New Testament, the Holy Spirit in one case takes the material form of a dove (entering Isa at baptism). This again is not unlike Islam, in that Jibral is sometimes manifested in a man-like form the Prophet sees, and sometimes Jibral is invisible.

The one difficulty I still have with your reply is the idea that everything in the Qur'an is good -- because there are verses that talk about cutting off peoples' heads if they are Kufar. Historically, Muslims have killed tens of millions of people who were born into a native culture, then were invaded by Islam, and did not submit or convert quickly under duress. This penalty seems quite unjust. And we hear that this is still happening. This kind of undeserved violence in Islam does not seem to be from God.

Anyway, thanks for clarifying. Maybe God will help guide me further in knowledge. Peace!
 
Friend2men said:
Yes, thanks. Your answers do help.

I have learned that Muslims believe the Holy Spirit is identical to Jibral the angel. So, the idea of inspiration in the two faiths seems very similar.

Also, in the New Testament, the Holy Spirit in one case takes the material form of a dove (entering Isa at baptism). This again is not unlike Islam, in that Jibral is sometimes manifested in a man-like form the Prophet sees, and sometimes Jibral is invisible.

The one difficulty I still have with your reply is the idea that everything in the Qur'an is good -- because there are verses that talk about cutting off peoples' heads if they are Kufar. Historically, Muslims have killed tens of millions of people who were born into a native culture, then were invaded by Islam, and did not submit or convert quickly under duress. This penalty seems quite unjust. And we hear that this is still happening. This kind of undeserved violence in Islam does not seem to be from God.

Anyway, thanks for clarifying. Maybe God will help guide me further in knowledge. Peace!
Click to expand...

Your wellcome! :)

And I see the propogandists have been teaching you about Islam :), so if your interested in learning about other aspects of Islam too, then dont hesitate to ask


Peace
 
DrumR said:
Would some one please expand upon the relative good and bad "spirits" within Islamic theology as relates to this BBC article?

BBC NEWS | South Asia | Village 'witches' beaten in India


Thank you.
Click to expand...

Hi DrumR,

Well that article says the women were considered to practice witchcraft; this could be 'black-majic' and black majic indeed does exist and it takes a person out of the folds of islam if they practice it; the punishment meted out to them; one of humiliation and degredation, indicates that it could be black majic they were practicing or thought to have been practicing

Sometimes people are considered to be possessed by evil spirits too and in them cases, righteous Muslim holy persons give Islamic anectedotes such as 'holy water' or recite the Quran over them or give them amulets with Quranic verses on them and other simmilar medicine, but fake practitioners who are just after money, can even sometimes prescribe beatings to drive out the evil-spirit and some people unfortunately fall for it :(

Regarding the case in the article, it's hard to tell really wether there was sufficient proof of the women practicing black majic and wether a 'cleric' just took advantage of the situation to make a fast buck...
 
Thank you for the favour of a reply, Abdullah.

Abdullah said:
Hi DrumR,
Sometimes people are considered to be possessed by evil spirits too and in them cases, righteous Muslim holy persons give Islamic anectedotes such as 'holy water' or recite the Quran over them or give them amulets with Quranic verses on them and other simmilar medicine, but fake practitioners who are just after money, can even sometimes prescribe beatings to drive out the evil-spirit and some people unfortunately fall for it :(
Click to expand...

Could one then say that "fear" is the primary motivator, in this case, rather than faith?
 
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