Burn the Qu'ran day?

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by 17th Angel, Aug 23, 2010.

  1. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    Actually yes, considering the fact that the steel the Japanese were getting came from the scrap heaps of the US, and the Chinese were getting pummeled by the Japanese, while Germany was loathe to involve the US in a war, Japan screwed everything up by attacking the US (much to Hitler's disdain and consternation).

    Your argument is circular.
     
  2. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Avoidance...I understand. If one can't face the facts, they avoid the issue. It's easier to criticize the messenger than to hear the message...
     
  3. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    This took a huge L turn huh lol.
     
  4. Saltmeister

    Saltmeister The Dangerous Dinner

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    It's a totally different culture with completely different morals and ethics. I understand your analogy 100%, but try explaining that to a Muslim who lives under Sharia law -- a person who hasn't grown up under the influence of a Western social and political system.

    They don't think in terms of "expression." You burn the Quran. The Quran is a message from God. You insult the Muslim's intelligence by debasing Quran. Your boldness, audacity, lack of fear and lack of respect by burning the Quran means that you are calling the Muslim an idiot for thinking it was written by God. The Muslim takes this personally.

    This is how you violate the dignity of the Muslim, not by denying his right to free expression of an opinion, but by humiliating and insulting him. You provoke him into fighting harder and harder to defend his honour. He intends to achieve that by directing his anger at Christians or other minorities living in his country. Burning the Quran is likely to lead to more persecution of Christians.

    Just like the anger that Westerners often feel that their countries are being infiltrated by Muslims and immigrants who don't assimilate, Christians are like a thorn in the side of Muslims in Middle Eastern and Muslim-dominated countries.

    To the Muslim, honour is more important than expression.

    Christianity is often accused of not being a religion of acceptance, but a religion of rejection, condemnation, damnation, vilification and demonisation.

    It's a matter of timing. I was getting a bit ahead of myself there. I know Christianity better than I know any other religion, because I deliberately chose to explore it. But I didn't explore it in the traditional and conventional way of exploring dogma and theology that was driven by literal interpretations. I made up my mind several years back that understanding Christianity was not as straightforward as listening to the kind of rhetoric being spewed out by most pastors and Christian web sites.

    I needed to get away from traditional Christianity. I set my mind on "thinking outside the box" and I knew it would take several years to remove myself from the confines of traditional Christianity.

    During that time I've been using this message board as a way of passively (not actively) learning about other traditions from what various posters said. It's a process very much absorbing ambient radiation (of various wavelengths). I've been behaving very much like a broadband/wideband receiver.

    I wasn't so much trying to use teachings from other religions as looking for insights as to how a religion might work socially, economically and politically. This was what took me out of the box of traditional Christianity. When I now talk to a traditionally-minded Christian, I often get the sense that they are trapped in some paradigm and they think if they venture outside of that "box" or paradigm they are no longer exploring Christianity.

    Religions as concepts are too big for anyone to get complete knowledge of them. Almost all of us are tweaking our understanding of some aspect of it. We will never know all of it. Different people are interested in different things.

    The traditional-minded Christian gets trapped in the paradigm most often called evangelical Christianity or various creed-driven Christianities. I sought to find one that was not driven by a creed and have recently decided that "my Christianity" cannot be driven by any so-called "fundamentals." Fundamentals will prevent me from achieving Christianity's ideals, its mission, vision and purpose.

    I believe, however, that I am reaching a critical point where I can now start to explore other traditions at a deeper, rather than a superficial level (which I was doing before). But I will have to do this one by one. I can now transition from a coarse-grained understanding to a fine-grained one -- well, maybe not -- maybe just a medium-grained one.

    At this stage I know very little about Islam, but after years of out-of-the-box thinking, I think I can go into the learning process knowing what to look for -- rather than looking at its theology, I think it's more important to consider how it works than what it teaches.

    I will probably be looking first at Judaism before moving on to Islam. There was an interesting thread last year about Christianity's relationship with Judaism. I was reading stuff about that about two weeks ago and what I learnt from that will influence how I explore Islam. But I can't do it all in a fortnight. This stuff happens gradually. I have other things to do. I have plans on what I want to discuss, but keep putting it off.

    Oh no....... Juantoo at the Dove Outreach Centre, caught in the act of burning Qurans!!!! -- or being found among the people doing it. How would you like to be on television?:D
     
  5. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    Naw, just a bump in the road.

    Burning a Qu'ran is stupid.
     
  6. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    Totally different, So burning a book.... Even though it is quite nazi style... But wouldn't you be speaking in their language and ways? They burn the flag. Which is a symbol of pride. So you burn a book which is likewise to them. You're acting like them wouldn't that be understood? Like, how stupid can they be, they didn't see hostility coming?


    Ah, I guess the pot holes make it more interesting.
     
  7. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    not in a humvee...or a Bradley...
     
  8. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    That's just cheating.
     
  9. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    ...anyway to win...
     
  10. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    Affirmative. :)
     
  11. Saltmeister

    Saltmeister The Dangerous Dinner

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    I consider it rather un-Christian to feel threatened by the spread of Islam.

    Whoever is first will be last in the kingdom of God.......... Whoever exalts himself will be humbled and whoever humbles himself will be exalted...... If you try to keep your life you will lose it. If you are willing to lose your life you will gain it.

    It's rather un-Christian to want to be in control...... it is more Christian to let go -- lest you become enslaved by what you want to control.

    When Christians warn against the spread of Islam what is their greatest fear? Why do they speak of it as the greatest evil to ever come to Western civilisation? Why do they make it into a national policy issue?

    What I see as more worrying is Christians not doing anything about a consumer- and capitalism-driven culture. They are slaves of the desire to own and possess things rather than a willingness to let go of things.

    I admit I am guilty of this too and I think it is pointless to speak of Islam as something evil, regardless of the justification, when the faith of Christians is being compromised by other things. It is where Christians become attached to wealth and where their sense of security is in their lifestyle and what property they own.

    I believe Islam is more likely to refine our faith than destroy us. I am not talking about a conversion here, but a reformation. Christians today are living under the shelter of a secular Western society with the lures of capitalism and consumerism. When that shelter no longer protects or benefits us, we will start seeking something far more important than what the West now offers (and may not provide in the future).

    Don't Muslims do what Christians were always supposed to do, give up our desire for wealth and vanity? As the fear of Islam consumes us, Islam will make us better Christians. Bring it on!!!!
     
  12. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads. And the beast that I saw was like a leopard; its feet were like a bear's, and its mouth was like a lion's mouth. And to it the dragon gave his power and his throne and great authority. One of its heads seemed to have a mortal wound, but its mortal wound was healed, and the whole earth marveled as they followed the beast. And they worshiped the dragon, for he had given his authority to the beast, and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who can fight against it?” And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months.

    ....

    And if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

    That would threaten me. To blindly with perhaps over or false confidence wouldn't be wise in the face of a true threat.
     
  13. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    I said this once and will say it one last time, faith put in the hands of certain people who rise to leadership, for whatever reasons does nothing but destroy. Religion is worse, as it seems to give them license to destroy, in the name of God.

    The most dangerous animal on earth is a "civilized man" who wishes to keep the peace...nothing, not even religion, will stop him from attaining that peace...even the peace of the dead.
     
  14. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    I agree...but so is burning a flag or a Bible. One is acceptable and the other isn't? Go figure...only in leftist America. :rolleyes:
     
  15. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    We're on the same page...it is all ludicrious...
     
  16. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    So? So our cultures are different, so what? We have to respect theirs while they are free to denigrate ours? What coexistence is there in that? Assimilation and conquest, yes...peaceful coexistence?, nah.

    You burn a Bible, you burn the message of G-d, you insult a Christian, Christians take it personally...where's the peaceful coexistence?

    Salty! You can't have it both ways. You just got done saying Muslims don't have freedom of expression, and then use freedom of expression to defend them! That is precisely how they are using our own laws to undermine our culture and society. And it doesn't take much to realize the goal and purpose.

    I wish I could agree...there aren't any Christians to speak of in Sharia nations...people are killed, executed by the state with the blessing of the Mosque, for converting.

    Again, so what? I must be culturally sensitive and they don't?



    Irrelevent. Muslims are free to worship without reprisal or recrimination in Christian nations...Christians are not afforded the same DIGNITY within Sharia nations. And L-rd help the Jews!

    I considered it, but the ramifications are too costly. I enjoy living indoors, and able to come and go. Politics seldom ever makes for any rational or reasonable heads, and too many powers that be can make my life miserable. Right now the liberals are too full of themselves to reason, now is not a good time in the flesh...so I will maintain a semblance of anonymity by carrying my message here. I do not support this guy, I do not support the hypocritical moral outrage against this guy...so I get caught in the crossfire.
     
  17. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    That is your right of course. I do think it is misinformed.

    I do so hope you are not speaking of me? I have not said Islam is evil, and I have no intention of doing so. That is part of what I am getting at, the jump to conclusion that disagreement is "hate." That's bullsh!t, that's a dodge to avoid facing the subject.

    While this guy did print up some t-shirts last year (and the city took him to task over that too), I see the media as guilty of hyping the hate aspect to make a story out of nothing. This whole thing should have been ignored. True to form, the leftist media blew it out of proportion to make a headline and sell commercial space...so I am taking the opportunity to raise the Interfaith issues.

    That's fine, but its irrelevant to this issue.

    When I see a Church, a Synagogue and a Buddhist Temple in Mecca and Medina, I will agree. Until then, its all smoke and mirrors.
     
  18. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Sorry, gotta laugh...internet podcast interview? Really? Like that can't be faked? I have never heard this guy say anything about the Talmud or invoke Judaism in any way at all in any of the TV interviews (at least see a face and read the lips). Let's at least keep this one within bounds. I don't believe he said it...prove me wrong, please.
     
  19. Saltmeister

    Saltmeister The Dangerous Dinner

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    Cultural differences do matter. You can't apply the same rules to everyone -- not in different cultures.

    What Americans consider racism isn't considered to be racism in Australia, for example. If I decided to celebrate a so-called "Paint Someone's Face Black Day," painting people's faces black to look like dark-skinned people, I am sure Americans would be offended. They'd call it racism because it reminds them of racism against "African Americans" in the history of the USA. "White" people violated the dignity of "black" people by impersonating them -- making them feel humiliated and insulted.

    Australians, however, have a different concept of "race" and this is why it took me a while to understand why Americans were offended. It was a paradigm shift.

    Now imagine you've gone to live in the Middle East under a Muslim-dominated culture. Huge paradigm shift. From their point of view, they are not denigrating anything. They are not insulting anyone. They are condemning someone. They have a different sense of humour. This isn't a game or parody for them. This is a serious matter. It's not a cartoon or comedy. It's a moral issue.

    As far as I know, burning a Bible isn't really that offensive to a Christian.

    Actually, many Christians do take offence at other things. If you say you are Christian and don't adhere to their creed, they get nasty.
     
  20. Saltmeister

    Saltmeister The Dangerous Dinner

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    getting very late ........ going to sleep now......
     

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