Is Cyrus "his anointed" a translation from "his Messiah"

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mojobadshah

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"Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut; 2 I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron: 3 And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call [thee] by thy name, [am] the God of Israel." - Isaiah 45.1

Was the phrase "his anointed" originally "his Messiah" in Hebrew and does this directly translate to "his Christ"? If so why wouldn't translators have used the term "Messiah" or "Christ" here? Because it seems to me that these terms would be more effective than "anointed"?
 
In the King James authorized version the word is translated to 'Anointed' everywhere except for two places in Daniel, where it is left untranslated. You can look it up in a concordance.
 
"anointed" is an English word. What I mean is what would its equivalent have been in Greek and Hebrew. Because this is what wikipedia says...

"Messiah is used in the Hebrew Bible to describe priests and kings, who were traditionally anointed with holy anointing oil as described in Exodus 30:22-25. For example, Cyrus the Great, the king of Persia, though not a Hebrew, is referred to as "God's anointed" (messiah)." - wikipedia

...and I'm not exactly sure what it means by as " 'God's anointed' (messiah)." To reiterate does it mean that "God's anointed" was originally the Hebrew word "messiah"? In other words, what would the Hebrew equivalent have been for the word "anointed"?
 
Messiah is the untranslated word anointed from before it was translated from Hebrew language into English, so it is the same word. Its like saying Hakuna Matata, which is an African phrase that translates to No Worries in English. You can say it in English or you can say the original that sounds cooler. Hakuna Matata. What a wonderful phrase.
 
"Messiah" is cognate to English "massage"
"Christ" is cognate to English "greased"
"Anointed" is the same root as "ointment"
All of them meant "rubbed with oil"; that being a ritual for kings, priests, etc. on taking office.
 
Well, Cyrus was a messiah. He was a guy who came along at the right moment and turned history in a beneficial way. "Anointed" basically means "officially chosen." Not sure what the big hoo hah on this is. The Bible narratives recycle certain archetypal characters. Jesus is a sort of ultimate composite amalgam of most of the preeminent characters in the OT's foundational mythology. This is kind of how he gets to be the derivative Logos of Jewish mythology.

Where are we going with this?

Chris
 
The root word of meshiyach is the verb mashach, which is as follows;

Original Word: מָשַׁח
Transliteration: mashach
Phonetic Spelling: (maw-shakh')
Short Definition: anointed

That help at all?
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Are you saying this root is akin to the English word "messiah" and was translated as "anointed" in English versions of the Hebrew bible?

"Messiah" is cognate to English "massage"
"Christ" is cognate to English "greased"
"Anointed" is the same root as "ointment"
All of them meant "rubbed with oil"; that being a ritual for kings, priests, etc. on taking office.
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Is one who undergoes this ritual considered a Messiah? What are some other big names that underwent this ritual? Were any of them considered Messiah's? Did Jesus undergo this ritual?

Well, Cyrus was a messiah. He was a guy who came along at the right moment and turned history in a beneficial way. "Anointed" basically means "officially chosen." Not sure what the big hoo hah on this is. The Bible narratives recycle certain archetypal characters. Jesus is a sort of ultimate composite amalgam of most of the preeminent characters in the OT's foundational mythology. This is kind of how he gets to be the derivative Logos of Jewish mythology.

Where are we going with this?

Chris
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I think that if the word "anointed" is used in the same sense as "Messiah" or "Christ" and these latter two terms were actually used instead of "anointed" that that would have been more... effective, though I'm not sure that's the word I'm looking for. Should the average person know who Cyrus II was like they know Alexander and Ghenghis Khan? I think so, and I just think that if they realized that he was held of an esteem high enough to actually have been called a "Messiah" or "Christ" by Jews and Christians instead of "anointed" that more people would know who he was.

To reiterate one more time. Would it not make sense to translate the passage this way... "Thus saith the LORD to his Messiah, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him" to mean the "savior" that the Lord chose to do his bidding and not as in the one who saved the Lord?
 
Hmm. Well you come across so far, Mojo, as someone who doesn't care to study it for themselves, which is completely understandable. I have only studied it to a certain amount myself. At the same time you cannot get an understanding of it by reading a Wikipedia article. You can borrow an opinion about what it means but cannot really have an educated opinion of your own and cannot really produce a good argument. In other words you don't know what you are talking about, and you can't expect other people to educate you while you argue against what they are saying. --Unless you get studied up some more. You won't really learn anything otherwise. To reiterate one more time, no it won't make more sense that way.
 
Cyrus the Great was considered to be a Messianic figure, a saviour, by the Jews of his era. After decades of subjugation and slaughter at the hands of the Assyrians and their successors the Babylonians and exile from the land of Judah, the Jews could literally not believe it when Cyrus conquered what was then the most powerful Empire on earth and proclaimed liberty for all the captives! He even allowed them to return to Israel and helped them re-build the Temple. To Jewish eyes this was an act of God and Cyrus was Yahweh's instrument on earth, his Messiah. He was a very admirable man. How could you not be in awe of him? :) I certainly am! He was WAY, WAY ahead of his time.
 
Yeshua, I'm under the impression Cyrus was a very admirable man too. Especially when it came to his tolerance for other religions and cultures. Americans, especially, should understand the importance of this because freedom of religion is one of the main reasons the puritans came to America to begin with. And this is what I'm talking about. I've come across sources that state he was a "Messianic figure" too, and that's why the article from wikipedia struck me, because I never gave any thought to the fact that "anointed" was a translation from the Hebrew form of the word "Messiah." 17th Angel and Bob X appear to be implying that this was indeed the case. Dream, however, is not satisfied with my version of Isaiah 45.1, and maybe he's right not to be, but I wonder whether whoever translated the Hebrew Bible from Hebrew, Greek, Latin, whatever it may have been, may have been downplaying the original Hebrew.

Also does anyone know what the Greek and Latin equivalents for "anointed" were in their respective versions of the Hebrew Bible?
 
Mojobadshah said:
but I wonder whether whoever translated the Hebrew Bible from Hebrew, Greek, Latin, whatever it may have been, may have been downplaying the original Hebrew.
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The translators cared about you and I, and they carefully made a literal, not a dynamic, translation so that you and I could ourselves become part of the process of translation. Translation of the Bible transforms the self. This is not a reason to accuse them of conspiracy but conversely to praise them for loving us, since they shared with us not just the words but entire thought patterns and a gift of love from a culture long ago. Translation is part of reading the Bible, and these English translators loved us and their work and shared it with us to the best of their ability. Also, sometimes even a literal translation is too much translation. A few words they have left completely untranslated, and I am compelled to assume that these were left to me to translate for myself, for my benefit and also you for yours. But you cannot get the benefit by reading Wikipedia articles! For a Bible reader, 'Anointed' expresses a lot more meaning than 'Moshiach', because it leaves open more possibilities than just one, among other things. Anointed can mean more than one thing, so you get to translate it for yourself. It also refers to the beautiful imagery and meaning of the process of anointing. The idea our translators had was to try in some small way to give us the same process that the ancients went through when they studied the scriptures, which was a process of translation which transformed the individual.
 
Thanks dream. What you just said has helped to give me a much better understanding of the phenomenon. The thing is I doubt that the average person who comes across Isaiah 45.1 is a "bible readers" in the sense that you mean, and so I doubt that therefore that they would understand the magnitude of the word "anointed."

Also what are some other major figures in the bible who were "anointed" in the same way?
 
mojobadshah said:
Are you saying this root is akin to the English word "messiah" and was translated as "anointed" in English versions of the Hebrew bible?
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Yes: the English word "messiah" is not native to English, it is simply a borrowing of Hebrew moshiach from this root M-SH-CH "to rub with oil" which also shows up in English as the word "massage" (another borrowing, this time through Arabic).
mojobadshah said:
Is one who undergoes this ritual considered a Messiah?
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The Hebrew moshiach came to take on a lot of heavier meanings than just someone who had been installed in office with an oil ritual.
mojobadshah said:
What are some other big names that underwent this ritual?
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Every king (David, Solomon, etc.) and every priest (Aaron, Zadok, etc.) underwent this ritual to assume office. The same was true in a lot of other cultures as well: in India, the sacred oil is called ghee from the same root as English grease or Greek christos (it has that "weak liquid" L/R that I have mentioned before, here vanishing in the Sanskrit though preserved in English and Greek; Avestan should have a similar word, but I don't know offhand what it is); but aside from use in ritually anointing a new king or priest, it is also mentioned in the "Laws of Manu" as a nice thing for a wife to do for her husband after he has a bath (that is, in India too it could just be a "massage" rather than a "Messiah").
mojobadshah said:
Did Jesus undergo this ritual?
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The prophet who came before the Messiah (in the capital-M sense, with all the heavier meanings of savior-of-the-world etc.) was supposed to anoint him with oil; and early Christians recognized John the Baptist as being that "prophet"-- but had to admit, to their embarrassment, that John had never actually anointed Jesus (John gave him water, but he gave everybody water; he didn't give him oil). A woman did rub Jesus with oil on one of the last nights before his arrest and crucifixion, however.
mojobadshah said:
Would it not make sense to translate the passage this way... "Thus saith the LORD to his Messiah, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him" to mean the "savior" that the Lord chose to do his bidding and not as in the one who saved the Lord?
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This would be reasonable (at least, I think so). I do not know for sure if Cyrus had an oil-ritual when he was crowned king, but since this was in common between Israel and India, I would think it probably happened in Persia too. But the point is that the ritual stood for GOD anointing the king, not just the human who was rubbing the oil, and the passage in Isaiah is saying that YHWH (the Jewish God) is indeed endorsing Cyrus and using Cyrus for His work.
mojobadshah said:
Also does anyone know what the Greek and Latin equivalents for "anointed" were in their respective versions of the Hebrew Bible?
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The Greek is christos, same as "Christ"; the Latin is unctus (same root as "unguent").
 
Every king (David, Solomon, etc.) and every priest (Aaron, Zadok, etc.) underwent this ritual to assume office.
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So does the bible just describe this ritual or does it actually refer to these figures as "anointed"? If so do Greek translations of the Bible use the term "christos" in association with these figures?
 
mojobadshah said:
So does the bible just describe this ritual or does it actually refer to these figures as "anointed"? If so do Greek translations of the Bible use the term "christos" in association with these figures?
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An example is 1 Samuel 16, which starts "The LORD said to Samuel, why be sad anymore about Saul, when I have rejected him from being king anymore over Israel? Fill your horn with oil and go to Jesse of Bethlehem, to anoint one of his sons..." Samuel finds each of Jesse's sons suitable, but YHWH tells him David is the one; Verse 13:

Hebrew wa-yiqqach Shmuwel eth-qeren ha-shemen wa-yimshach othow
................... and-took Samuel the-horn of-the-oil and-anointed him

Greek kai elaben Samouel to keras tou elaiou kai echrisen auton
........... and lifted Samuel the horn of-the oil and anointed him

You see the Hebrew uses the M-SH-CH root and the Greek uses the "Christ" root; so you could render "Samuel anointed him" as "Samuel made him the Messiah" or "Samuel made him the Christ" if it weren't for the fact that "Messiah" and "Christ" have taken on heavier meanings.
 
It is certainly no secret that Cyrus was considered a 'saviour' to the Jews in exile. He was an fairly enlightened ruler for the time.
 
Mojobadsha said:
I doubt that the average person who comes across Isaiah 45.1 is a "bible readers" in the sense that you mean, and so I doubt that therefore that they would understand the magnitude of the word "anointed."
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You seem to be admitting that the average person who comes across Isaiah 45:1 doesn't care that much about understanding it. I'd draw a parallel between that and the average person who wants direct answers from Economists. It is better that people be notified of the need to investigate the depth of the meaning for themselves rather than cheapen their experience. To do otherwise would be like blindfolding people, and because the material is so important I'd consider it to be ethically criminal. Economists face the same kind of catch-22 as Bible scholars when asked for 'Straight answers without all the Economic verbiage'. Its impossible to understand Economics unless you invest time into it. Same thing with a Bible passage. With either thing there is often no direct translation of a sentence for consumption by an uneducated person. To talk Economics one must be an Economist by increasing amounts. Bible readers must become Bible people, similarly; to dialogue about the Bible. Its off putting I know, but its really that way. Many problems occur when people think they understand something that they are actually only vaguely aware of.
 
I doubt that therefore that they would understand the magnitude of the word "anointed."
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anointing is something you do to a king or other important person - it's like investing them with their office, giving them the aura, as it were. cyrus was undisputedly a king, the significance of him being "G!D's anointed" is that G!D Chose him to look out for the jews at that particular point and that we were to treat his actions in this respect as part of the Divine Plan.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
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