reincarnation question

[Nick the Pilot]

IG,
　
I am not aware of any such studies either. If you want to read such studies, you need to contact the people in that video.
　
Yes, I think HHDL the 14th is the reincarnation of HHDL the 13th.
　
Yes, most people agree with whatever belief system they happen to be born in. I admire people who have the courage to reject the belief system they were born in, when they finally admit that the belief system they were born in doesn’t make sense.
　
It is a fascinating question, whether there is a higher percentage of Buddhist converts that believe in rebirth than people who were born into Buddhism. (I don't know the answer.) By the way, millions of Buddhists do not believe in rebirth, and some denominations within the largest Buddhist tradition (Pureland Buddhism) do not teach rebirth. I have seen many cases of Americans who convert to Pureland Buddhism, only to be shocked to find out their fellow Pureland Buddhists do not believe in rebirth. I have listened to huge fights between Buddists who do and do not believe in rebirth. It is one of the biggest causes of arguments and unfriendliness between these two large groups of Buddhists.
　
You said,
　
"But I do think there are some great teachings in Buddhism that I can apply to my daily life without having to believe in reincarnation."
　
--> I am glad to see that you are picking and choosing which ideas do and do not fit into your personal belief system. This is exactly how my belief system works. Do not let anyone tell you that you have to believe something just because it is a Buddhist teaching -- this used to haqppen to me all the time. (And if you want to ‘hang around with Buddhists,’ you have to become more sensitive to the difference between reincarnation and rebirth, as Vaj is saying.)
　
"How much do you think your belief in reincarnation after death affects your day-to-day life in the present moment?"
　
--> A great deal. The simple idea that I will have to eventually burn off any bad karma I create has stopped me many times from doing bad things. Also, my belief in the idea of reincarnation has changed many ways in which I lead my life. If one person believes in reincarnation and another person believes this is a one-shot opportunity, it really makes a difference in how the two people conduct their lives. Simply believing in reincarnation has even changed what I see as the purpose of life, why we are here in the first place.
　
~~~
　
It is time for a new question for you. How about child prodigies and child geniuses? Young children who are great pianists or great violinists? Children who have an uncanny ability to grasp a difficult field of study such as math or science? (I recently saw a two-year-old who could name all the US presidents just by looking at their pictures.) Where did their talents come from? I say the only way they picked up these talents is because they put in a lot of hard work to acquire these skills in previous lifetimes, and they are merely picking up from where they left off. Do you simply write off these cases as ‘gifts’ or ‘talents’ without any explanation?

 

[Snoopy]

can we please not refer to Buddhist teachings of rebirth as reincarnation?

perhaps it would be better, Nick, if you were to expound the Theosophical view of reincarnation in the areas which are appropriate for that rather than in the Buddhist area?

i can only imagine using the terms interchangeably, when they don't mean the same thing, is confusing.

metta,

~v

What we need is some Moderation! But that stopped a long time ago.

I made a hint in my post 3 here but if IG ends up with erroneous ideas about Buddhism thanks to Nick's expounding of Theosophy in the Buddhist forum then that is unfortunate I believe.

 

[Vajradhara]

What we need is some Moderation! But that stopped a long time ago.

I made a hint in my post 3 here but if IG ends up with erroneous ideas about Buddhism thanks to Nick's expounding of Theosophy in the Buddhist forum then that is unfortunate I believe.

indeed, Snoopy, on all counts i would agree with you however there is no moderator for this part of the forum.

as such all that i can hope to do is make it clear, when possible, how Buddhist terminology can often be misconstrued outside of the Buddhist paradigm.

metta,

~v

 

[Bhaktajan II]

♫ Squeeling Steel Wheels of a Locomotive screeching to a full stop!!!!! ♫

I have had an insight [predicated upon 'persona' being the common denouminator/prime moving factor]:

It is not not about people's "Souls being awarded concominant Karma".

It is about "Positions" available for birth-taking.

During any given time . . . there are only so many available Positions to take a birth in.

The positions can only be made available to eligible candidates.

There are myraids of births transpiring ---each obliged to do certain works ---work positions made animate by the Living Soul in them . . .

Does the soul learn a lesson?
Does the soul automatically or purposely choose the succession of births ---pre-planning to acquire the requisite accumen for presigoius births?

Three old adage warnings:
a] "Great responsibility is given to those that are expected to steward them properly." ---[my paraphrase of, I think, of an OT Verse];

b] "Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely" ---[Source: ???]

c] "The bigger they are the harder they fall" --Alfalfa of the Little rascals

...............................
It is not about our meager karma birth after birth;
its about inheriting preferable birth(s) that are available because there will be vacancies. The Births that will one day take birth to fill future vacancies 'should' be filled by virturous deserving mindful souls destined for further sublime life.

. . . I am describing the fortunate Humans suggested in Upton Sinclair's book, "The Jungle" as striving to exist beyond the fray ---but, alas "The Jungle" was followed by WW1 & WW2 denisens striving to 'Be the Best You can be'.

 

[IowaGuy]

Well, Iowaguy, as to other explanations, Erwin Lazlo has theorized a form of what the ancients referred to as the "Akashic Record" as an explanatory model for such recollections-a field that contains the "information" from every human who ever lived that some folks can tap into. Of course, I would suspect that that would be as hard to swallow for hard-core materialists as reincarnation. But there are many human experiences that simply defy the materialist word-view to properly explain. So, where in Iowa do you hail from? I was born and bred a South Dakota boy. earl

Thanks Earl for the info, I had not read any of Lazlo's stuff - one more item for my winter reading list!

I was actually born & bred on a small farm in KS (looks like that's where you're living now). Wife is from Iowa, I really dig the rural lifestyle, feel very close to nature when wake up every morning foraging in the vegetable garden and listening to the chickens!

 

[IowaGuy]

What we need is some Moderation! But that stopped a long time ago.

I made a hint in my post 3 here but if IG ends up with erroneous ideas about Buddhism thanks to Nick's expounding of Theosophy in the Buddhist forum then that is unfortunate I believe.

Point taken, thanks for the input. Iowa Guy's note to self: Nick's views may not be those of mainstream buddhism.

Also, note taken on using the term rebirth.

As this discussion is trending more towards philosophical discussions on rebirth I will make a new post in the belief/spirituality subforum so as not to confuse the issue with buddhist views of rebirth. Thanks to everyone who has contributed so far, I am learning a lot and have some good food for thought...

 

[Snoopy]

indeed, Snoopy, on all counts i would agree with you however there is no moderator for this part of the forum.

metta,

~v

Just to be clear Vaj, my comment was not about your stepping down from your sterling duties as a Mod, but rather in reference to the whole site.

 

[Snoopy]

...the question becomes, in this light, do non-human sentient beings have intentional thoughts, actions or words?

i would submit that, with a rare few exceptions, they do not and thus most sentient animals do not generate karma

Most non-human beings do not engage in intentional action? No purpose driving the behaviour of a carnivore or a herbivore?

 

[Vajradhara]

Just to be clear Vaj, my comment was not about your stepping down from your sterling duties as a Mod, but rather in reference to the whole site.

namaste snoopy,

i understand though i didn't step down.

that said, you'll note all sorts of interesting spambots and such that have visited recently so there is some moderation happening in other areas of the forum.


@IowaGuy

Nick's view's are not Buddhist either mainstream or otherwise. Nick is a Theosophist and, as such, his views are Theosophical views rather than any form of Buddhist view.

metta,

~v

 

[Vajradhara]

Most non-human beings do not engage in intentional action? No purpose driving the behaviour of a carnivore or a herbivore?

there is purpose, at least in a biological imperative sense, yet there is no intention with rare exception and that is only something which i am speculating upon given the nature of recent experiments with crows that build tools, for instance, to open things and KoKo the gorilla that can speak to humans by signing.

the Suttas generally indicate that animals are unintentional actors and thus do not generate positive karma, or negative karma for that matter.

on the other hand, there are Sutras that indicate the positive role that humans can take to mitigate the karma and future vipaka for animals thereby helping them start a positive rebirth cycle.

metta,

~v

 

[Snoopy]

@vaj

I bow to your greater knowledge of the suttas of course; my quibble is over the simple meaning of the word itself. Can you have purpose without intention? Your average dictionary defines intention AS purpose or aim; acting for some goal, some INTENDED outcome. Surely this describes the behaviour of a cat stalking its prey?

 

[bob x]

I have had an insight

I could not help but be reminded of Owen Wilson in Woody Allen's latest, "Midnight in Paris" (any of you who have not seen it: it is excellent!) saying "I'm having an insight! OK, it's a minor insight, but..."

Three old adage warnings:
a] "Great responsibility is given to those that are expected to steward them properly." ---[my paraphrase of, I think, of an OT Verse];

b] "Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely" ---[Source: ???]

c] "The bigger they are the harder they fall" --Alfalfa of the Little rascals

a] is New Testament, actually: "To whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much is entrusted, from him much will be expected" Luke 12:48
b] is Lord Acton (19th century British parliamentarian and commentator)
c] I thought was Bob Marley, but I guess Alfalfa beat him to it!

 

[Vajradhara]

@vaj

I bow to your greater knowledge of the suttas of course; my quibble is over the simple meaning of the word itself. Can you have purpose without intention? Your average dictionary defines intention AS purpose or aim; acting for some goal, some INTENDED outcome. Surely this describes the behaviour of a cat stalking its prey?

LOL..

i'm with you the English word is certainly conflated in that sense and i would suggest that the Sanskrit isn't as easily conflated in that manner.

i'll see if i can dig up some of the text transliterations and post them up so it is more easy to see.

confining ourselves to English, i would suggest that whilst it is true enough that cats are purposeful in their actions, say, i cannot ascribe to them the idea of intention (in the Buddhist sense) since they do not display any apparent capacity for contemplation of their actions i.e. they act from a biological imperative rather than from a considered course of thought or action.

some animals are showing signs of being able to do those very things, however, and i think that this is one of the areas where Buddhism is going to change in the very near future once more evidence has been accumulated to support the idea of some animals being able to have intent behind their actions.

metta,

~v

 

[Snoopy]

Well my cats are downright bloody conniving

Don't sweat the research; but if you do dig up anything I would, as ever, appreciate it.

 

[seattlegal]

Thanks V for your post, this is very interesting.

If all sentient beings have rebirth and beings can alter their future rebirths through their present life how does this work for moose and wolves?

One part of Christianity that always left me empty was the separation between humans and other sentient beings. Humans were viewed as bound for heaven, I never heard a good explanation of what happens to sentient animals with regard to heaven/hell.

It's OT, but this is the best I can come up with from the bible:
Ecclesiates 3

 

[seattlegal]

Well my cats are downright bloody conniving

Don't sweat the research; but if you do dig up anything I would, as ever, appreciate it.

I've had conniving cats as well! They worked together to open doors, get into cupboards, knock the catnip in a screw-top jar out of the cupboard, and open the jar!

{I guess opening a jar is much like turning a doorknob. One cat specialized in turning the doorknob, while the others would push the door open while the other cat was hanging from the doorknob. I guess the brass screw-top on the jar looked enough like a doorknob for them to apply the same principle!}

I did find this sutta:

Cetana Sutta: Intention

Staying at Savatthi... [the Blessed One said,] "What one intends, what one arranges, and what one obsesses about:[1] This is a support for the stationing of consciousness. There being a support, there is a landing [or: an establishing] of consciousness. When that consciousness lands and grows, there is the production of renewed becoming in the future. When there is the production of renewed becoming in the future, there is future birth, aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. Such is the origination of this entire mass of suffering & stress.
"If one doesn't intend and doesn't arrange, but one still obsesses [about something], this is a support for the stationing of consciousness. There being a support, there is a landing of consciousness. When that consciousness lands and grows, there is the production of renewed becoming in the future. When there is the production of renewed becoming in the future, there is future birth, aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. Such [too] is the origination of this entire mass of suffering & stress.
"But when one doesn't intend, arrange, or obsess [about anything], there is no support for the stationing of consciousness. There being no support, there is no landing of consciousness. When that consciousness doesn't land & grow, there is no production of renewed becoming in the future. When there is no production of renewed becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering & stress."​

I would say that the cats' behavior did appear to have intention, arrangement, and certainly obsession to it! Was it enough to provide a support for the landing of consciousness?

 

[Snoopy]

Perhaps so, the transliteration may fudge the issue. My two learn stuff off each other too...little monkeys!

 

[donnann]

I've had conniving cats as well! They worked together to open doors, get into cupboards, knock the catnip in a screw-top jar out of the cupboard, and open the jar!

{I guess opening a jar is much like turning a doorknob. One cat specialized in turning the doorknob, while the others would push the door open while the other cat was hanging from the doorknob. I guess the brass screw-top on the jar looked enough like a doorknob for them to apply the same principle!}

I did find this sutta:

Cetana Sutta: Intention

Staying at Savatthi... [the Blessed One said,] "What one intends, what one arranges, and what one obsesses about:[1] This is a support for the stationing of consciousness. There being a support, there is a landing [or: an establishing] of consciousness. When that consciousness lands and grows, there is the production of renewed becoming in the future. When there is the production of renewed becoming in the future, there is future birth, aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. Such is the origination of this entire mass of suffering & stress.
"If one doesn't intend and doesn't arrange, but one still obsesses [about something], this is a support for the stationing of consciousness. There being a support, there is a landing of consciousness. When that consciousness lands and grows, there is the production of renewed becoming in the future. When there is the production of renewed becoming in the future, there is future birth, aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. Such [too] is the origination of this entire mass of suffering & stress.
"But when one doesn't intend, arrange, or obsess [about anything], there is no support for the stationing of consciousness. There being no support, there is no landing of consciousness. When that consciousness doesn't land & grow, there is no production of renewed becoming in the future. When there is no production of renewed becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering & stress."
​

I would say that the cats' behavior did appear to have intention, arrangement, and certainly obsession to it! Was it enough to provide a support for the landing of consciousness?

I believe reincarnation is a reality when the spirit (consciousness) comes back into the human fertilized egg. There is a difference between reincarnated and incarnated. Incarnated beings come from the divine kingdom and are angelic beings sent into the human community for a purpose. Reincarnatd beings are human spirits coming back into the human community again to progress.

 

[Snoopy]

I believe reincarnation is a reality when the spirit (consciousness) comes back into the human fertilized egg. There is a difference between reincarnated and incarnated. Incarnated beings come from the divine kingdom and are angelic beings sent into the human community for a purpose. Reincarnatd beings are human spirits coming back into the human community again to progress.

Do your views have a connection with the teachings of the Buddha?

 

[donnann]

Do your views have a connection with the teachings of the Buddha?

I am multireligious. I believe every major religion on earth has the same information but interpertations vary. Reincarnation to me makes sense and I dont follow any one religion.