Is there a true Church in this world today?

donnann

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,294
Reaction score
2
Points
36
We will never be perfect (We are human). All we can ask for is to have faith that love will continually change us into something better than what are and hope to know love more fully than we do today. (Faith - Hope - Love) These three remain and the greatest of these is love.


If we ever became perfect, what would there be to have faith in and what would be our hope? Both would be forgotten, hence it is written that faith, hope, and love remain, thus we continue the cycle of transformation, the process of being perfected without ever reaching perfection.

I believe mankind will be perfect and that the love we have inside is the most perfect part of us. I believe as a living being that Love is the mind, emotion and body that is the highest perfection. I also believe that this is the immortal original state of being. All good things come from love. Compassion, kindness ect. All good emotions come from love but some day when there is nothing but love there will be no need for other emotions. The spirit is the mind or consciousness, the soul is a multicolored light like dna codes are modeled but is literal emotion. The body is the senses part. The soul is not felt in the current condition except on the level of the senses part. If your soul was one with your body you could actually feel that essense which would be a rapture literally
T he cycle of transformation in my opinion is leading us down a road , with a few bumps along the way, to this highest state. Its all about emotion but love is also a state of mind., The union of spirit soul and body is a perfected self.
 

Gatekeeper

Shades of Reason
Messages
1,330
Reaction score
41
Points
48
Location
Here! Where else?
I believe mankind will be perfect and that the love we have inside is the most perfect part of us. I believe as a living being that Love is the mind, emotion and body that is the highest perfection. I also believe that this is the immortal original state of being. All good things come from love. Compassion, kindness ect. All good emotions come from love but some day when there is nothing but love there will be no need for other emotions. The spirit is the mind or consciousness, the soul is a multicolored light like dna codes are modeled but is literal emotion. The body is the senses part. The soul is not felt in the current condition except on the level of the senses part. If your soul was one with your body you could actually feel that essense which would be a rapture literally
T he cycle of transformation in my opinion is leading us down a road , with a few bumps along the way, to this highest state. Its all about emotion but love is also a state of mind., The union of spirit soul and body is a perfected self.


Appreciate your views, but I would ask you to think about faith and hope, how they are said to always remain. If we are actually made perfect, then would we truly still have faith and what would be our hope at this point? "Complete" may be a better term than perfect. Yes, no maybe? :eek:
 

donnann

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,294
Reaction score
2
Points
36
Appreciate your views, but I would ask you to think about faith and hope, how they are said to always remain. If we are actually made perfect, then would we truly still have faith and what would be our hope at this point? "Complete" may be a better term than perfect. Yes, no maybe? :eek:

Well I dont know if you know this but Michael the archangels female counterpart is named faith. Faith in love and all the good things that come from that. They represent truth and faith. Just because someone is perfect doesnt mean that faith doesnt still remain. As far as hope the hope to continually grow within the boundries of perfection. When someone becomes perfect they are kinda a newborn, they still have to grow
 

donnann

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,294
Reaction score
2
Points
36
Appreciate your views, but I would ask you to think about faith and hope, how they are said to always remain. If we are actually made perfect, then would we truly still have faith and what would be our hope at this point? "Complete" may be a better term than perfect. Yes, no maybe? :eek:
Archeia (pl. archeiai). Divine complement and twin flame of an archangel
 

Gatekeeper

Shades of Reason
Messages
1,330
Reaction score
41
Points
48
Location
Here! Where else?
Well I dont know if you know this but Michael the archangels female counterpart is named faith. Faith in love and all the good things that come from that. They represent truth and faith. Just because someone is perfect doesnt mean that faith doesnt still remain. As far as hope the hope to continually grow within the boundries of perfection. When someone becomes perfect they are kinda a newborn, they still have to grow


Doesn't perfect imply that there is no more 'growth' needed? I think our faith in love to continually change us for the better will remain, and also that our hope to know love more fully than we do at present will remain. If we ever get to the point where we say "O.k. I am perfect I don't need to further grow in love" that we are going to miss out on a wondrous existence that God has prepared for us.

"It is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him."

I agree with your sentiments for the most part, only I think there is no end destination, only the continual communion with God, the getting to know God more fully as we move forward, never ceasing to seek God ever so we might come to know God more and more fully as we live and progress in life. This is much like a relationship where we continue to discover things about those we are in a relationship with, continually growing together as one.
 

donnann

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,294
Reaction score
2
Points
36
Doesn't perfect imply that there is no more 'growth' needed? I think our faith in love to continually change us for the better will remain, and also that our hope to know love more fully than we do at present will remain. If we ever get to the point where we say "O.k. I am perfect I don't need to further grow in love" that we are going to miss out on a wondrous existence that God has prepared for us.

"It is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him."

I agree with your sentiments for the most part, only I think there is no end destination, only the continual communion with God, the getting to know God more fully as we move forward, never ceasing to seek God ever so we might come to know God more and more fully as we live and progress in life. This is much like a relationship where we continue to discover things about those we are in a relationship with, continually growing together as one.

I believe that you can still do that in immortal condition,
 

Thomas

Administrator
Admin
Messages
12,459
Reaction score
2,678
Points
108
Hi Pastor Franszwa
Is there a true church in this world today? And if so, how can it be identified?

Well one way is to trace the lineage back to the original early church of the Apostolic Era. That, logically, would be the closest we have to a 'true church', other denominations having branched off from that vine, as it were.

God bless,

Thomas
 

donnann

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,294
Reaction score
2
Points
36
I might suggest that it can be no other way. Even so, are we talking about immortality or perfection? To me they are two completely different birds.


Well, in order to be immortal and complete you have to be brought into union with your body soul and spirit. I believe the spirit is immortal. However an incarnated being is immortal because it has preexistance and has a prior body soul and spirit that is already one sealed within the incarnated body. The religious texts refer to union of the body with the soul and spirit. Personally I believe there is a difference between eternal and infinite. Eternities are measured but infininte life is neverending. Reaching immortality can give you eternal life, but reaching perfection gives you infinite life. So your point about growing in your relationship to me in this sense is correct. To me perfection is when your immortal, complete, and your spirit(consciousness), soul (emotion) and body (sense) are nothing but love literally and your knowledge and maturity reach this adult stage. I believe the premortal state would have taken eternities to reach total perfection like a child takes years to reach adulthood. I guess when I am talking about perfection I am talking about reaching adulthood within that immortal state but getting from the imperfect mortal state to the new born immortal state.
 

Gatekeeper

Shades of Reason
Messages
1,330
Reaction score
41
Points
48
Location
Here! Where else?
Well, in order to be immortal and complete you have to be brought into union with your body soul and spirit. I believe the spirit is immortal. However an incarnated being is immortal because it has preexistance and has a prior body soul and spirit that is already one sealed within the incarnated body. The religious texts refer to union of the body with the soul and spirit. Personally I believe there is a difference between eternal and infinite. Eternities are measured but infininte life is neverending. Reaching immortality can give you eternal life, but reaching perfection gives you infinite life. So your point about growing in your relationship to me in this sense is correct. To me perfection is when your immortal, complete, and your spirit(consciousness), soul (emotion) and body (sense) are nothing but love literally and your knowledge and maturity reach this adult stage. I believe the premortal state would have taken eternities to reach total perfection like a child takes years to reach adulthood. I guess when I am talking about perfection I am talking about reaching adulthood within that immortal state but getting from the imperfect mortal state to the new born immortal state.

Know thyself? To be honest, I don't know what exactly I believe about the soul, spirit, and body. Perhaps these elements to us make up what we are as humans. Perhaps we are in union, being complete from birth. I think we are complete as we are. Even so, in order for us to grow and develop, evolving from who we were born as to who we can become, we need to recognize the Spirit (Essence) of life and then embrace her, nurturing this "essence" within us, whereby we are able to grow in Gods grace.

Being imperfect and able to make mistakes is not a bad thing. I actually believe our mistakes to be a necessity when it comes to growing, evolving, and further developing as a people. Our imperfects keep is moving forward, motivating a desire to be something better than what we are. They lend to us a means by which we are able to continually grow. Without them, we would likely be less motivated in our desires.

Even so, I do think we will reach a point where we are joyful, happy, serene, content, peaceful, etc. (Many already are), but also that we will still fall short of Gods glory. This way we don't get lazy and quit living our lives in pursuit of knowing love more deeply, knowing God more fully. Life is a journey; there is no destination, only a continual process of growth in God.

Total perfection is not my goal. My goal and motivation in life is to know life and love more fully that I do today, and I will assume if we ever reach immortality that it will be the same even then. :p
 

donnann

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,294
Reaction score
2
Points
36
Know thyself? To be honest, I don't know what exactly I believe about the soul, spirit, and body. Perhaps these elements to us make up what we are as humans. Perhaps we are in union, being complete from birth. I think we are complete as we are. Even so, in order for us to grow and develop, evolving from who we were born as to who we can become, we need to recognize the Spirit (Essence) of life and then embrace her, nurturing this "essence" within us, whereby we are able to grow in Gods grace.

Being imperfect and able to make mistakes is not a bad thing. I actually believe our mistakes to be a necessity when it comes to growing, evolving, and further developing as a people. Our imperfects keep is moving forward, motivating a desire to be something better than what we are. They lend to us a means by which we are able to continually grow. Without them, we would likely be less motivated in our desires.

Even so, I do think we will reach a point where we are joyful, happy, serene, content, peaceful, etc. (Many already are), but also that we will still fall short of Gods glory. This way we don't get lazy and quit living our lives in pursuit of knowing love more deeply, knowing God more fully. Life is a journey; there is no destination, only a continual process of growth in God.

Total perfection is not my goal. My goal and motivation in life is to know life and love more fully that I do today, and I will assume if we ever reach immortality that it will be the same even then. :p

If you were complete you would actually feel the soul essence. This soul essence is a rapture of emotion. You can only feel this essence on the senses level in the mortal condition because your body is not one with your soul. The three parts have different functions all a part of the complete being. So your not separate from your soul on a senses level but are not one with the actual soul element. Your body functions like your skin for the soul and spirit union.
 

Gatekeeper

Shades of Reason
Messages
1,330
Reaction score
41
Points
48
Location
Here! Where else?
If you were complete you would actually feel the soul essence. This soul essence is a rapture of emotion. You can only feel this essence on the senses level in the mortal condition because your body is not one with your soul. The three parts have different functions all a part of the complete being. So your not separate from your soul on a senses level but are not one with the actual soul element. Your body functions like your skin for the soul and spirit union.


I hate to sound cliche, but love completes me .... Not my soul. As far as I'm concerned I AM a soul, a living soul and that which completes me is the essence (Spirit) of life (Love).
 

donnann

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,294
Reaction score
2
Points
36
I hate to sound cliche, but love completes me .... Not my soul. As far as I'm concerned I AM a soul, a living soul and that which completes me is the essence (Spirit) of life (Love).


Yes on a senses level you are a living soul but not on a soul level. I am talking about an actual part of your whole being. You love, feel compassion ect but ONLY on the senses level. The soul is made up of elements that are center between the body and spirit. If you took a model of the three actually 4 parts I dont discuss the 4th part because some may find it offensive, The spirit part is a light consisting of an element compared in religious texts to ether but consisting of nothing but consiousness. The soul is literally a multicolored light with patterns of patches of different colors (comparable to genetic codes) that is the center of spirit and flesh that is nothing but literal emotions. I compare it to plasma. Everyone already knows about the body. Picture a merge of these three things. You would not be old, you would not die, and you would have no flaws looking at your physcial appearance. If you were united with your actual soul you would be aware of it because you do experience it on a physical level of the senses but you would realize that is what you were missing. Remember the texts say the fall separated man from god , they are talking about the separation of your body and soul being one.
 

donnann

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,294
Reaction score
2
Points
36
I hate to sound cliche, but love completes me .... Not my soul. As far as I'm concerned I AM a soul, a living soul and that which completes me is the essence (Spirit) of life (Love).

This is why religious texts call the body a vessel or container and this union is referred to as filling that container. Its like fusion.
 

Gatekeeper

Shades of Reason
Messages
1,330
Reaction score
41
Points
48
Location
Here! Where else?
Yes on a senses level you are a living soul but not on a soul level. I am talking about an actual part of your whole being. You love, feel compassion ect but ONLY on the senses level. The soul is made up of elements that are center between the body and spirit. If you took a model of the three actually 4 parts I dont discuss the 4th part because some may find it offensive, The spirit part is a light consisting of an element compared in religious texts to ether but consisting of nothing but consiousness. The soul is literally a multicolored light with patterns of patches of different colors (comparable to genetic codes) that is the center of spirit and flesh that is nothing but literal emotions. I compare it to plasma. Everyone already knows about the body. Picture a merge of these three things. You would not be old, you would not die, and you would have no flaws looking at your physcial appearance. If you were united with your actual soul you would be aware of it because you do experience it on a physical level of the senses but you would realize that is what you were missing. Remember the texts say the fall separated man from god , they are talking about the separation of your body and soul being one.


I'm not sure I follow and even less sure where you get your information, hehe! I'll bite however, but only because I'm curious what a "soul level" is. I am a conscious being, able to experience certain stimuli. I experience both the negative aspects of life and the positive aspects of life, both of which ultimately provide a means of personal growth and development. I don't think we are separated from God at all, actually. We merely feel disconnected because we often neglect the life giving aspect of life, which I myself believe to be love.


You are suggesting that soul, spirit, and body are separate, whereas I'm suggesting that these things make up who are. We are both body and spirit, which together make a living soul. Even animals are living souls, living beings. When you merge spirit with the physical you get a living being. This is much like how a battery operates. You merge the positive terminal (Spirit/Energy) with the negative terminal (Physical/Ground) and you get juice (Life).


I'm reminded of a verse in Ecclesiastes, "Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."
 

IowaGuy

Hunter-Gatherer
Messages
660
Reaction score
3
Points
0
This way we don't get lazy and quit living our lives in pursuit of knowing love more deeply, knowing God more fully. Life is a journey; there is no destination, only a continual process of growth in God.

Hi Gate, I was listening to a Christian radio show while driving the other day, and the main theme, repeated over and over, was "accept Jesus as your personal saviour so you will go to heaven and not to hell" (to paraphrase). Not much mention of striving for personal/spiritual growth, loving more deeply, etc.

Seems to me that sometimes modern Christianity places too much focus on "getting to heaven/avoiding hell" and not enough on self-actualization and spiritual growth? After all, it's not deeds or enlightenment but faith that gets one into heaven. Thoughts?

Why do you think Christianity is your best path to "knowing love more deeply, knowing God more fully"?
 

Gatekeeper

Shades of Reason
Messages
1,330
Reaction score
41
Points
48
Location
Here! Where else?
Hi Gate, I was listening to a Christian radio show while driving the other day, and the main theme, repeated over and over, was "accept Jesus as your personal saviour so you will go to heaven and not to hell" (to paraphrase). Not much mention of striving for personal/spiritual growth, loving more deeply, etc.

Seems to me that sometimes modern Christianity places too much focus on "getting to heaven/avoiding hell" and not enough on self-actualization and spiritual growth? After all, it's not deeds or enlightenment but faith that gets one into heaven. Thoughts?

Why do you think Christianity is your best path to "knowing love more deeply, knowing God more fully"?

Good question! It is the path I was introduced to as a child, yet I have since been freed from my indoctrination. After I emptied my cup, I started to see truth in Jesus' teachings and have been filled with love. I think modern Christianity has lost its roots. Jesus lived and died for the "kingdom"; he lived his life showing us what is required to attain it.


Jesus taught us to love and serve, and to seek the kingdom first. To do anything less than living for the kingdom today is doing an injustice to Jesus' efforts. I'm a Christian because I believe in and attempt to follow in Jesus' footsteps by loving others as he loved those he gave his life for. I'm not concerned with the afterlife. I believe the life we lead today, what we do to create a better world for our children is what matters most.


Thanks for the question .......
 

donnann

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,294
Reaction score
2
Points
36
I'm not sure I follow and even less sure where you get your information, hehe! I'll bite however, but only because I'm curious what a "soul level" is. I am a conscious being, able to experience certain stimuli. I experience both the negative aspects of life and the positive aspects of life, both of which ultimately provide a means of personal growth and development. I don't think we are separated from God at all, actually. We merely feel disconnected because we often neglect the life giving aspect of life, which I myself believe to be love.


You are suggesting that soul, spirit, and body are separate, whereas I'm suggesting that these things make up who are. We are both body and spirit, which together make a living soul. Even animals are living souls, living beings. When you merge spirit with the physical you get a living being. This is much like how a battery operates. You merge the positive terminal (Spirit/Energy) with the negative terminal (Physical/Ground) and you get juice (Life).


I'm reminded of a verse in Ecclesiastes, "Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."

Now I tell you this, brethren,
that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;
neither does corruption inherit incorruption.
See, I’ll show you a mystery;
We shall not all die,
but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,
at the last trump:
for the trumpet shall sound,
and the dead shall be raised incorruptible,
and we shall be changed.

This is what I have been talking about. This quote from the bible clearly is talking about a resurrection of the body and states we shall we changed. This change occurs through union of the body soul and spirit by power of the holy spirit. If you were complete in your current state what change would occur?
 

donnann

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,294
Reaction score
2
Points
36
Revelation 10:7
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Its not such a mystery, its all about the union of body soul and spirit and union with eachs own opposite.
 

Gatekeeper

Shades of Reason
Messages
1,330
Reaction score
41
Points
48
Location
Here! Where else?
Now I tell you this, brethren,
that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;
neither does corruption inherit incorruption.
See, I’ll show you a mystery;
We shall not all die,
but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,
at the last trump:
for the trumpet shall sound,
and the dead shall be raised incorruptible,
and we shall be changed.

This is what I have been talking about. This quote from the bible clearly is talking about a resurrection of the body and states we shall we changed. This change occurs through union of the body soul and spirit by power of the holy spirit. If you were complete in your current state what change would occur?


Those who are worldly ("Flesh" and "blood" representing the carnal man) which is who we are before we are "born again" of the Spirit, simply cannot inherit the kingdom. The reason being simple, how can we inherit Gods favor when we reject and neglect Gods life giving Spirit (Love)? I think perhaps you are making something simple into something complicated. We were never separated from God as God is all and in all of us, but we can miss out on a wonderful inheritance when we deny, reject, and neglect the Spirit of life (Love).
 
Top