Discussion in 'Philosophy' started by IowaGuy, Aug 4, 2011.
Can you elaborate? Fascinating idea, that.
As Pastor Franszwa stated, the True Church is internal. To find it, you should follow these simple guidelines. First, put your faith in only God, The Son and the Holy Spirit...not in in any physical church, man or man made doctrines. Second, you must be 100% sincere in your heart and mind....God's BS meter is totally accurate. Third, pray to God (through the Holy Spirit) to guide you to The Truth. Remember to keep this in your mind....The Truth has two very familiar components...the whole Truth and nothing but The Truth. As a side note....The Holy Spirit is kind of like the U.S. Supreme Court....if you don't ask the right question, you won't get the answer you're looking for. The Holy Spirit will then guide you (through thought and possibly an inner voice) but be careful....the first thought that comes to your mind may come from your 'adversary'. Think carefully and be patient....the True thought will come to you. Just follow it. Remember what the Bible said....keep seeking until you find it. When you do find The Truth, you'll know it. All the 'mysteries' will be gone, you'll truly understand the Bible and who'll be whole again. Laus Deo.
I believe the manna is golden and that the golden spirit takes you to infinite life and ultimate truth.
Thank you for asking. It is a continuation of what we have discussed above and elsewhere. In terms of the "internal" church, the parousia of Jesus continues. I am guided by this fascinating verse in 1 John 3:2:
“Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.”
That is deep stuff. I read it thusly: when we see him, we shall be like him, and (correlatedly) we shall not see him until we are. To become like him, therefore, is at once the simplest and hardest thing in the world to do.
Very close to a Quakerly approach.
We are kith and kin.
The true church is each males true female counterpart. These are brides. Each male has only one female counterpart that will be the different(because of the fall) but the same(prior to the fall as in your other half) and oneness of black and white light. These females are the only true church , temples of a sort. For each female the true counterpart is her own JESUS.
as a place of fellowship , to prepare u for the afterlife
is just a social institution
no different from any (secular) social institution
no different than the company i am employed by
we have a rulebook of do-s & don't-s
a dress-code , a grooming-code
no explicit dietary-code , but we are expected
to look fit & healthy
& to be businesslike but cordial with every customer
to smile (& to be genuine about it)
to me , these are not hard rules to follow
i am a company-gal , a team player
(i know such conduct brings repeat-customers
& good word-of-mouth for our business)
i'm a great believer in "company policy"
conservative political columnist David Brooks , has written about ...
personal immortality is institution-based
i harbor no longing for some long-lost church
a religious institution evolves , & that is how it survives
& the rituals
which help this "sacred" institution survive , (yes) serve an important role
"company policy" works , but these institutional pieties are
an entirely secular fact-of-existence
David Brooks considers
these social rituals to be the practical-form our "morality" takes
i thoroughly disagree
people often confuse "group values" with morality
"group values" are public but inherently sectarian
the "company policy" which i personally ascribe to
will not function well , say on an assembly-line or in the military
these values are a good fit with my institution , but not with all other institutions
no "group values" are universal
all "group values" are sectarian
(with me) , genuine morality is
is not embedded in a group , is not a "we" thing
it is not a sectarian flag "we" wear on our lapel
but morality is (instead)
a very private (& a thoroughly religious) thing
an encounter (of u , to me)
inside the cool dry semi-dark plain-as-plain meetinghouse
Sundays of my early teens , my moral-awakening begins
starts with a teen's laughably-petty socialization anxieties
did i hurt Julie-Ann's feelings when i chose Benjie to partner-with in Math Class ?
3 hours (contemplating) in the semi-dark , Sunday after Sunday
to work-upon this kind of obsessive (oversensitive guilt-driven) problem , (which
has rather more to do with my own self-esteem than it has to do with Julie-Ann)
then one Sunday , i have this flash-memory
Julie-Ann bites her lip & shrugs & then half-smiles
this is the mask of her self-respect , &
i see this mask dissolving before my (inner) eyes , &
of a sudden , i realize Julie-Ann had wanted to partner with me
not merely because we are close-friends , but
because i am quicker to grasp difficult-concepts (than she is)
& selfishly , she had hoped to use me as crutch to catch-her-up
(which is essentially the reason , also why i chose Benjie)
something harsh happens to me in that Sunday "moment"
i am emotionally-naked & (inside) Julie-Ann stands before me emotionally-naked
the ego drops away
& i don't think less of Julie-Ann for her selfishness (nor less of myself for mine)
i (merely) see Julie-Ann as she is
(no castle-walls protecting her , no mask covering her true-face) &
something in me realizes , i am ...
that Sunday , for the very first time at Meeting
13-year-old-me stands up to testify
(at first my parents cringe slightly , then as they listen
they are startled , then i think surprised)
at home afterwards , they tell me that
what i have experienced is called
witnessing& no , we do not mean by this
u'r testimony before the gathered Friends
this is the pale side of witnessing
(hearken to this)
to witness is a vital act
it is not just a new way of seeing
it is a way of seeing which will compel u to act
maybe not today or tomorrow , but someday
to act on behalf of another
no , honey
witnessing is not the goal of our devotion , but
this is morality (real morality)
i grow (over time) to realize , not a rulebook of do-s & don't-s in my head
morality starts deep inside , when the ego drops away
morality starts with witnessing
i will begin to behave differently
differently around my friends , & eventually
differently around everyone i meet
at some point in each interaction with another person
i will step back , step back into the Sunday-meetinghouse inside me
the ego drops away , &
i see this other-person not as i want to see them , but see them
(emotionally-naked) , see this person (pretty-close to) the way that she or he actually is
this is where the secular world ends & religion starts , for me
i deeply enjoy the secular world
my job & my friends & slow sex & smart art-galleries
while i no longer attend Meeting (not for 12 years , now)
religion still pulls-on-me
to me , religion consist of 2 meaningful realities
one is (yes) , moral
the other is spiritual
to me , these are the only 2 religious realities
(anything else surrounding religion , is
either an instrumental secular-trapping or an out-&-out delusion)
& while i do believe that
Quakers have the "morality"-side of religion locked down , solid
no , i am not nominating the (Hicksite) Society of Friends as
the "true Church" (such is a silly game)
the reason i
no longer officially-practice the faith of my mother & my late father
is , (well) complicated
the short answer has to do with the "spiritual"-side of religion
(but i'll leave that for another post)
the meaningful "church" , (to me) is
the cool dry semi-dark plain-as-plain meetinghouse
(the one inside me) , where ...
the ego drops away
true church = internal church = parousia = "see him as he is"
(thank u , Servetus)
The growth of someone can be like a child growing up. Say something happened like a rebirth of sorts and a sealing. You would count the years from that point to get the age of the new creations age. So say the sign of the dove came down and a miracle happened in 1996 , then the body was sealed. That would make the one 15 even though the actual physcial age may be older. Then there would be other seal openings and bindings as a progression. 15 has a holy signifiganceFive is, as we have seen, the number of grace, and three is the number of divine perfection. Fifteen, therefore, specially refers to acts wrought by the energy of Divine grace.Divinity is seen in it, for the two Hebrew letters which express it are y, Yod (10), and h, Hey (5). These spell the ineffable Name of hy, Jah, who is the fountain of all grace. The number fifteen is thus made up, by addition, 10 + 5; but as the Jews would not, by the constant use of these two letters, profane the sacred name, two other letters were arbitrarily used for this number, and a different and artificial combination was thus formed—+ (Teth) = 9, and w (Vau) = 6. The number 9 + 6 would thus represent the number fifteen, but without any significance.
Fifteen being 8 + 7 as well as 3 x 5, it may also include a reference to resurrection, as being a special mark of the energy of Divine grace issuing in glory.
A few examples may suffice:
The Ark was borne by the Flood fifteen cubits upwards, Genesis 7:20.
Hezekiah's reprieve from death was fifteen years, 2 Kings 20:6.
The Jews were delivered from death under Esther on the fifteenth day of the month (9:18,21). This is specially significant, as we have seen, that their sentence to death was connected with the number thirteen.
Bethany, where Lazarus was raised, and from whence the Lord ascended, was fifteen furlongs from Jerusalem, John 11:18.
The 15th day of the first month is the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, a day of rest for the children of Israel. The 15th day of the 7th month begins the Feast of Tabernacles, also a day of rest.
God delivered Israel’s firstborn from death on the 14th; then, at the beginning of the 15th day at sunset, the children of Israel began to leave Egypt by night. This night is called 'The Night to Be Much Observed Unto the Lord' (Exodus 12:40-42; Numbers 33:3; Deuteronomy 16:1). On this same day 430 years earlier, after the sun had gone down ending the 14th, God told Abraham in a vision that his descendants through Isaac would end up as slaves in a foreign country — but that He would release them from this bond­age after 400 years (Genesis 15:12-16). Exactly 430 years later—on the same night — this prophecy was fulfilled as the children of Israel left Egypt on the 15th day of the first month (Exodus 12:40-41). On the same night — in order to guarantee His covenant promises to Abraham — the Lord passed between the parts of sacrificial animals, as evidenced by a burning lamp and a smoking furnace, which wholly consumed the sacrifices (Genesis 15:17-20). In performing this ceremony, God was pledging His future death as the perfect sacrifice for the sins of the world — guaranteeing the future 'rest' from sin for all who inherit eternal life.
On the same day as Abraham's vision and the children of Israel leaving Egypt, the 15th day of the first month in 30 AD, as the sun was setting to end the 14th — Jesus’ body was placed in the tomb. Thus, Jesus began His three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
For Christians, the 15th day of the first month, the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, pictures rest from their sins, having had them removed by Christ’s shed blood on the 14th.
The 15th day of the 7th month begins the Feast of Tabernacles. For the children of Israel, it pictured rest from the long harvest season. They were to dwell in booths in remembrance of their trek in the wilderness.
Prophetically, the 15th day of the 7th month pictures the coming Millennium when the world will have rest from sin because of the binding of Satan on the Day of Atonement. Under Christ’s reign, salvation will then be offered to all the world — the great spiritual harvest of God for 1,000 years.
I can definitely help you guys how to know if the Church that you are in can bring you to heaven... Just tell me what Church you are into... Thanks...
The Church of God is in the Bible... That is the answer... The Church of God was long established here on earth...
Giving a different view... My friend that is not in the Bible...
Exodus 20:24 An altar of earth you shall make for me and sacrifice on it your burnt offerings and your peace offerings, your sheep and your oxen; in every place where I cause my name to be remembered I will come to you and bless you.
Joshua 22:27 ...and peace offerings; lest your children say to our children in time to come, "You have no portion in the LORD."
Peace offerings means there is a different viewpoint, but peace (no fighting about it) is required between people in spite of them. That is why there are peace offerings.
Proverbs 18:24 "There are friends who pretend to be friends, but there is a friend who sticks closer than a brother." --- What kind of friend breaks off the friendship because of a disagreement about words? A fake one does. A church can handle disagreements.
The truth of the Bible is in its wise sayings, but a church happens when people are willing to come together in spite of their differences. The differences are part of the church.
11 The sayings of the wise are like goads, and like nails firmly fixed are the collected sayings which are given by one Shepherd.
12 My son, beware of anything beyond these. Of making many books there is no end, and much study is a weariness of the flesh.
13 The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God, and keep his commandments; for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil.
People do not need for you to tell them what to believe, Jeremy. I am including some quotations from the Bible, since you may recognize them.
Matthew 7:8 For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.
James 1:5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives to all men generously and without reproaching, and it will be given him.
Jeremy, once all has been heard it is the end of a matter. Don't ex communicate people merely because they don't see everything the same way as you.
The true church according to scripture is each males true female counterpart. The doctrines surrounding the truth of the true opposite is the truth about the church being the bride and brides. Each females true male counterpart is her own JESUS.
There is, I agree, a mysterium tremendum concerning the mystical bride of Christ. Quite what that mystery is, I do not know. Nevertheless, I am not being a smart-alec by saying that, for contemplative purposes, I sometimes consider this one, from the Song of Solomon (6:8), because, queens and all, it intrigues me:
"There are threescore queens, and fourscore concubines, and virgins without number." (6:8)
I like the way you think. There is so much I am my own god and I alone am complete garbage out there today that its nice to hear that someone embraces the ancient truths.
Probably been said already but, the true church has always been there, it's Within, You are the Church . . . all need to do is Open its doors
how about a Coven instead of a Church ?
Separate names with a comma.