Which God and where is he?

Discussion in 'Belief and Spirituality' started by ciel_perdy, Aug 22, 2011.

  1. ciel_perdy

    ciel_perdy New Member

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    The above post was made on a thread in which I was hoping to inspire people to share about their experience of living by faith in God. If people aren't interested in sharing about this, or don't believe in God for whatever reason, I would appreciate if they didn't have to try and derail the topic. Therefore, I have started another thread dealing our friends thoughts above which were in response to my post on the other thread.

    Hi NCOT,

    God, The God, the supreme Being, Love, Truth, whatever you want to call him,she,it, doesn't really matter to me. The God of all people, regardless of race, religion or beliefs, the God that gives us every breath we breathe...need I go on?

    Sure, plenty of people do die from lack of resources. There was nothing in my post to suggest people don't. Millions are facing starvation in Africa, I know because I am there. Where is God for them, you ask? Where are you for them?

    We are God's hands, God's eyes, God's mouth. It's easy to blame God and not take on repsonsibility for these things ourselves.
     
  2. NiceCupOfTea

    NiceCupOfTea Pathetic earthlings

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    ok so sorry for bringing your thread down.

    so not the God of the Bible then.


    i am to wrapped in providing for my own.

    if you say so.


    but Jesus said dont worry about food and provision because God Loves and will take of you, my paraphrase, but clearly this is not true since millions due to lack of provision ?
     
  3. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    It is no wonder there are so many dualistic religions. If one believes in absolute determinism and in the Divine, then it must be that the Divine is the cause of eveil and pain and suffering in the world. A Manichaean or Zorastrian or Satanic bent on this would allow one to shift blame from the Divine to some Demiurge.

    For coherency's sake I like the way Jung or the Quakers put it. The Divine dwells in everything, but if we forsake the Light and the Right (because of free-will) we manifest the Shadow. It is that Shadow that is the cause of willful suffering. Unwillful suffering (like a tsunami) is a fact of Nature which serves to help us return to the Light.

    For me living by faith is not the issue, it is living rather with the Eternal Flesh of Creation, the Ongoing Word of Revelation, the Ceaseless Struggle of Redemption.

    Pax et Amore Vincunt Omnia
     
  4. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

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    The good, bad and the Ugly ---for the introspective mind, all have lessons to learn from.

    But what is the goal, upon which 'inspirations' brings us closer to?

    The lessons burn into the soul ---so that they are never forgotten.

    But 99% of the repeatedly re-born souls (in samsara) ALWAYS FORGET!

    The lessons are right under their noses ---yet they forget.

    When "forgetting" it is infamously the best time to engage in libations and sensual pursuits.

    While the war & famine & natural catastrophies rage on ---let's do to the Disco ---"to BE wrapped in providing for my own"?
     
  5. chakraman

    chakraman God save us from religion

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    i take it then that as you know what makes a person godly then you act in such a way. may i ask what tasks or actions you perform that make you god's hands?

    this is the reason people starve; me and mine. i mean no offense as i am the same.

    even an act of helping others can be done to gratify ones feeling of self worth and so be part of the cause of the problem that it thinks its helping.
     
  6. IowaGuy

    IowaGuy Hunter-Gatherer

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    You're trying to have it both ways. Either we're in God's hands or we aren't. If we AREN'T then of course fellow humans need to help "take care of" those that are starving. But if they were truly in God's hands wouldn't he find a way to take care of them?
     
  7. IowaGuy

    IowaGuy Hunter-Gatherer

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    People starve because there aren't enough local food resources for them.

    Humans lived on the African continent for over 200,000 years in a sustainable manner, living off the earth and all that Mother Nature provided. I'm not saying there weren't tough times (of course there were), but the circle of life was in balance as it is with the other animal species on this planet and on that continent.

    The last century has seen an explosion in human population on the African continent. According to Wikipedia over 1 billion people live in Africa.

    How many people do you think the resources of Africa can sustainably support? (lot of desert and unreliable water sources over there)

    Starvation is but a symptom of the real problem...
     
  8. ciel_perdy

    ciel_perdy New Member

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    chakraman wrote:

    If I told you what tasks or actions I did, what difference would it make to your view on God?


    I agree with your first sentence. The reason why there is starvation is precisely because of people looking after 'me and mine'.

    Sure, people may just help others for the feeling it gives them of self worth, but I would prefer 1 person who helps others because of that feeling, than 1000 people who look after 'me and mine', who know they should help others, but don't because they might be helping out of selfish reasons. There are so many reasons that stop people from truly stepping out of selfishness, into living their lives in love and service to others.
     
  9. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    Karma from last life?
    oh my, next time around could be a bitch...:eek:
    She purports that it is pray but move our feet....that G!d can only do for us what G!d does thru us.

    When the land drys up, or there are too many people....it is time to move.

    The poor have moved thousands of miles before...lost many along the way...often folks make choices to stay...for sentimental reasons...these are their choices?

    What if returning to G!d is part of the plan?
     
  10. ciel_perdy

    ciel_perdy New Member

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    You logic doesn't make sense. You say (in effect) if God isn't real, then it's up to us to take care of those who are starving, however if God truly is real and we are in his hands, then wouldn't he find a way to take care of them. Well, yeah, that's the point I was making, he made you didn't he? That's his way.

    But then a God that actually made us for the purpose of showing love and caring (taking responsibility) for our brothers and sisters, isn't what people really want in a God, is it?
     
  11. ciel_perdy

    ciel_perdy New Member

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    Regardless of population growth, I am sure there are PLENTY of resources here in Africa, IF it wasn't for the rich western people coming here, raping the country, planting cash crops, and taking all the resources for our own pleasure and benefit. It is greed that has caused the problems in the 3rd world, the love of that precious profit.

    Starvation is a symptom of the real problem, but that real problem is NOT over population, it's lack of land to grow food, it's lack of potable water, it's lack of the medicine etc. The real problem is plain and simple greed. But again, that's not what people WANT to hear, because then it means we might actually have to change the way we live and love. No, far easier to blame them (over population) for their own problems, that way we are free to carry on looking after 'me and mine'.
     
  12. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

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    You're trying to have it YOUR way.

    "There is a place and season for everything under heaven"

    Just be in the right place when you are obliged to.

    Welfare state for all ---with a cherry on top?

    Carry your own cross!
     
  13. Gatekeeper

    Gatekeeper Shades of Reason

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    I agree with your sentiments, but population IS a problem and one that needs to be addressed worldwide I think, not just in Africa. Even so, greed and the love of money is destroying our world, so I think both you and IG are correct on both aspects of the problem.

    Cheers,
     
  14. chakraman

    chakraman God save us from religion

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    put simply, if every person was not thinking of me and mine and acted in a selfless manner then they wouldn't overpopulate to a point where the land cannot support them because that would jepordise their fellow man. but also the comnpetitive nature of buisness and polution could also be affecting drouts.

    i'm interested in what actions you perform that you consider make you the hands of god. i don't see why you're bringing how it might affect my view on god into it? i want to get to the bottom of your motives, actions and reasoning, because my conceipt tells me that they're fundamentally flawed and i want to try and show you this. of course i might be wrong, humour me...

    the physical act of digging a well, giving grain and sometimes giving and sharing the coin maybe necessary but my point is that whilst ego exists, the me and the mine, such travestys as starvation and the like will always exist and that you are either without ego and so part of the cure or not and so part of the cause and hence even the man giving the grain is partly to blame for the very fact that its needed, because his life is not free of conflict and the situation he is attempting to help is a sympton of that inner conflict and who is free of that?

    dig the well, give the grain and share the coin but also know that you're the cause of it all, peace
     
  15. Gatekeeper

    Gatekeeper Shades of Reason

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    What do you propose be done, then? Are you suggesting that humanity abandon those who need us most? Digging wells, sending grain, and sharing our wealth may not eliminate the problem, but it certainly helps. Perhaps education and guidance should be coupled with giving. I might also ask how those who help are the cause of the problem. I would think that the cause is that of location, over population, and limited resources.


    We are one body, the brotherhood of man, and if we neglect the needs of others, thinking only of self survival, then how can change ever occur on this earth? Are we not responsible for the condition of life for all humanity? What we do today will affect the world for years to come. The least we can do is share our blessings with those in need, no?
     
  16. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    If the Divine can speak to us directly, surely the words are those of love and peace and unity and compassion. In a subsistence economy children are needed to herd the livestock and till the fields. Before the advent of the white man, it worked out quite well. The average life expectancy and population density pretty much made for a balanced solution. By eliminating diseases and pestulance and promoting an (at least partially) industrialized society Western Civilization is at least partially responsible for the situation (be it in Africa or at Pineridge).

    What the Divine expects is love and compassion for others. Redemption, if it has any meaning at all means helping the Divine in tending the flocks.

    Pax et amore vincunt omnia... radarmark
     
  17. donnann

    donnann Active Member

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    GODs running around here somewhere.......but where is he ....dont know
     
  18. chakraman

    chakraman God save us from religion

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    what do i suppose should be done? drop the self and self interest until then it will continue and thats something no-one is prepared to do, hence its all our faults. so you may imply that i'm abandoning them but so are you unless you're ego-less? if you abandon your own inner transformation you abandon also the world you live in. the problem exists because of how we are, my interest is to fundamentally change that, as that is the only action that will make any real lasting difference, everything else is barely more than pointless, but in the meantime no harm in digging so long as it doesn't interupt with the necessary transgformation in ones psyche.

    why are those who help, part of the cause? are they really helping? other than a short term peripheral affect, which maybe necessary but whilst their inner conflict continues and sows the seeds of future misery, or are you saying that everyone who helps is free of conflict and ego centred activity, even the more subtle kinds.

    we are not one body, there is no brotherhood, thats a noble sounding nonsensical ideal, the fact is that we are in conflict with ourselves and each other and its that, that needs addressing, nothing else. everything i have typed has been about not thinking of ones self, the difference i'm alluding to is that there is only real outward change following authentic inner transformation. i have not said don't share the coin, did you read my post?

    ""dig the well, give the grain and share the coin but also know that your the cause of it all""

    yes, when we share our "blessings" that is the very least we could do unfortunately, the most we could do is preferable no? and that in my opinion is to drop the self and understand our inner conflict so such things never happen. anything else is a cop out, i'm nice everyone be like me and it'll be ok, self gratifying unending thoughtless self centred misery that is the current state of affairs because we're lazy and prefer to point the finger at the horrible ones over there somewhere, peace
     
  19. IowaGuy

    IowaGuy Hunter-Gatherer

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    Africa is now at 1 billion people. Some of the fastest growing countries in the world are in Africa. How many people do you think she can feed sustainably? If you think starvation is bad now, wait a couple more decades when there's a few hundred million more mouths to feed on your continent...


    Wow, blame the West for everything! I suppose it's easier to blame the West than blame your God or the harsh natural environment or human reproduction. Africans used to round up and sell their fellow brethren into slavery (rival tribes) so you can't blame all their historical problems on the West...

    If the West is helping to make any problem worse it's the overpopulation problem by giving Africans food aid but not empowering them to curb their population growth.


    Lack of land and water resources and people starving as a result means there are too many people living in that area, i.e. overpopulation

    Ciel, your refusal to address the population issue makes me wonder if you are Catholic?

    I'm not trying to be mean, it seems like you have a great heart and I commend you for trying to be the change you want to see in the world. But there are some huge underlying population dynamics that I think you're not addressing...
     
  20. chakraman

    chakraman God save us from religion

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    i don't think life was fine and dandy pre white man industrialisation. there may not have been the same problems but i'm sure life was just as full of conflict then as it is now even in africa when/if there was no starvation or population overdrive. no doubt the tribes existed in a permanent state of warfare and each tribe was probably a dictatorship, women second class, male and female genital mutilation, restricting codes of behaviour etc etc. remove all thats been done and return africa to where it was a 1000 years ago and its still utterly beastly. peace :eek:
     

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