Which God and where is he?

Discussion in 'Belief and Spirituality' started by ciel_perdy, Aug 22, 2011.

  1. NiceCupOfTea

    NiceCupOfTea Pathetic earthlings

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    well i have a responsibility to feed, clothe and house my family and to enjoy my life.


    if i had more i could give more, but its hard to give out of grinding poverty and debt.
     
  2. chakraman

    chakraman God save us from religion

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    i think the ''you can't love others until you love yourself'' is nonsense too.

    i agree that no-one does nothing "amidst" all the talk and "they don't actually do anything" and make it "sound like spiritual progress". i also put myself in that category. you however don't and i am questioning whether you have moved at all. i suppose it comes down to what to you represents selfless actions and how that differs to me. i'm sure your agree that the mere activity of helping others does not necessarily constitute selfless action; one maybe doing it because a book says so or to gain some kind of spiritual reward or for gratification of the self as a "noble" person. you also seem to measure your goodness by what others are not, as if their lack of authentic spirituiality makes you more so

    quote:
    "Why do you want to do social work? Is it because you see misery in the world -- starvation, disease, exploitation, the brutal indifference of great wealth side by side with appalling poverty, the enmity between man and man? Do you want to do social work because in your heart there is love and therefore you are not concerned with your own fulfillment? Or is social work a means of escape from yourself? ...If it is a means of escape, or if you are merely pursuing an ideal established by a leader or a priest, or by yourself, then any social work you may do will only create further misery. But if you have love in your heart, if you are no longer ambitious, no longer pursuing success and your virtue is not leading to respectability, then your very life will help bring about a total transformation of the society."

    and:
    It is the happy man, not the idealist or the miserable escapee, who is revolutionary; and the happy man is not he who has many possessions. The happy man is the truly religious man, and his very living is social work. But if you become merely one of the innumerable social workers, your heart will be empty. You may give away your money, or persuade other people to contribute theirs, and you may bring about marvellous reforms; but as long as your heart is empty and your mind full of theories, your life will be dull, weary, without joy. So, first understand yourself, and out of that self-knowledge will come action of the right kind.

    and this from, Jiddu Krishnamurti teachings on Conditioning | Jiddu Krishnamurti Talks Quotes Videos, J Krishnamurti Blog
    “Am I escaping from myself through social work?”
    Are you attached to it, bound to it? Would you feel lost, empty, bored, if you did not do social work?
    “I am sure I would.”
    Attachment to your work is your escape. There are escapes at all the levels of our being. You escape through work, another through drink, another through religious ceremonies, another through knowledge, another through God, and still another is addicted to amusement. All escapes are the same, there is no superior or inferior escape. God and drink are on the same level as long as they are escapes from what we are. When we are aware of our escapes, only then can we know of our conditioning.




    i am not trying to say anything in a positive format, i.e. "what you should do", i don't see that there is a how, my interest is to see the conflict in myself, that is the action, but sadly i don't see it clearly as then i would be free of it. more fool anyone who asks "what shall i do" or tells someone "what to do". the seeing is the doing and that might come at the end of effort or asking or telling what is to be done. but to live without authority is scarey isn't, to be alone and responsible for oneslf, its preferable to have a book or a priest shepherd us, much safer, but therein lies the problem as it makes a dependant child out of us.

    no, i am talking about the lack of love and also that the people who think they love may actually not. "if my love isn't absolute the what is the point of loving" < if i may, this doesn't make sense; if your love isn't absolute how can it love at all? obviously there's no point because unless it comes from egoless state it is driven by desire of some kind, to be noble, "loving" etc and so is based around the self and not the other or the "cause". you can only love when the self dies, completely, this is obvious is it not?

    i personally believe that jesus probably existed and that he was a pretty cool dude, more than likely completely egoless etc. when i hear things like "let he who is without sin cast the first stone", i can feel that coming from the mouth of an enlightened being who speaks from the "perrenial wisdom" in the "style" , if it can be called that, of "la vie negative" or the great negation, i.e. he is not telling you "what to do" (which would be a positive assertion) but merely revealing the obvious, that all men are sinners and allowing the stoners to experience the hypocrisy of their actions for themself, without telling them what to do. do you see the beautiful difference? no dependance on another, no man from outside can make you free. so when i see a passage that contains a positive assertion, "do this, do that" i know its not from the mouth of an enlightened and hence added by some little person trying to compel people to be good in the context of a religious text that does contain some true words, which make folk believe every syllable.

    the ego lies under many stones, to assume one has lost ego through seeking the will of god could be an egotistical assertion. i can feel your ego in your words, it jumps out at me, as does mine no doubt. i am not interested in being egoless, that is a gratifying noble sounding spiritual ideal, that i question strongly that you are "gaining" through your work, my interest is my conflict because that is the fact. but in honesty i can't be that serious can i? otherwise i would have uprooted it. so a little humility if you will, but the idea that your life being empty of love is abhorrent to you is it not? your life is centred around you being a noble soldier of god and its a paradigm shift to accept that all your actions and good deeds are phoney self centred hype. i'm wrong, full of self, empty of love; i must see my travesty if i am to understand, not escape into lofty notions of being spiritual because i know i'm not. i also feel that you're not and that we are the same bucket with a hole in it, pouring water in it to try and fill oursrelves and it just leaks out of the bottom. i don't feel no love in you at all, you may not feel any in me but then i'm not claimimng to be loving, you are.
     
  3. chakraman

    chakraman God save us from religion

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    no, you're asking how can an unintelligent person act righlty, do you see the contradiction? first drop self nothing else, until then all actions create further confusion, the fact they are unaware of the causes is difficult for me to address as i also live in that soup.

    my point is that your "solving a problem" is not actually real, deep and lasting but purely peripheral. it maybe necessay to help in the short term with money etc so as long as one is aware that it is also their own self interest magnified onto a global stage that is the cause of the mess they are trying to sort out.

    one cannot really help another be it one to one or all mankind until one has extinguished self interest. whether its practical on a global scale is not something i can or want to control at present, i see that my first step is to put out the fire in my own house, that is all becuase then actions are whole and healing on a personal and global level. why should i do it, is it to free myself of my psychological pain, to attain some higher state of peace i.e. trying to lose self purely for selfish reasons lol, which is the trap isn't it,,,i wish to do it because i see myself as phoney, empty and that must end, thats all. well actually i don't see it so at present i am interested in what prevents my seeing, not what shall i do or how shall i attain this that and the other but why can't i see my conflict clearly? its a good question i feel.

    you'll have to explain this in reference to mt post, are you saying my wish to be ego-less is bourne of self interest? if so i appreciate that. i'm not interested in being "egoless" i think i answered that before if so, but i think i see the trap but i also know i don't but thern knowing you don't would also be a form of seeing so lets just say i haven't got a clue, but some of it sounded like i did didn't it? :eek:

    i am ignorant, i don't know < i wish i truly thought that, why? because i want to get something out of it!!! me me me
     
  4. chakraman

    chakraman God save us from religion

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    yes its a shame as they are all useless, as one cannot overcome it for starters. one cannot compel the ego to silence, any action on the ego just strengthens it further. i see you agree its necessary though. but just because loads of books have been written is irrelevant though isn't it, as i don't agree with any of them, so putting it forward as a means to prove my thoughts are incorrect is confusing, because i don't see there is a "how" when addressing the ego. you also have a book that tells you "how" to lose your ego so wheres the difference between that and all the others that you disdain. in fact out of the two of us i am the only one who thinks the "how" books are useless.
     
  5. ciel_perdy

    ciel_perdy New Member

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    Chakraman:
    I believe that God communicates to all of us, and I believe we don't need books or human teachers, for God's spirit within us which lead us into all truth, and show us our sin, and the path to change. Truth should be our authority, and the authority we allow to mold us into what Truth wants us to be.

    You see, I guess here is where I see Jesus as again showing the perfect way to egolessness. He said, ''just get busy showing love to others and to God''. It is our complete dedication to showing love in words, deed and action that we forget ourselves. Of course we need to continuly judge our motivation to make sure that what we are doing is out of sincere love, but Jesus says, ''follow me, you'll make mistakes, but you'll make progress too''. Jesus talked about the need to die, so that we can be live, but all of his teaching was in context of getting started NOW, not waiting, sitting, and deliberating the death of our self.



    Jesus did at times tell people what to do:

    ''do not call anyone on earth father, for you have one father in heaven''.
    ''be not called Rabbi, or Master''
    ''if someone hits you on the cheek, offer him the other''
    ''don't store up riches on earth where moth and rust corrupt''
    ''if your brother sins against you, rebuke him''
    ''If your brother repents forgive him''
    ''when you pray do so secretly''
    ''when you give do so secretly''
    ''when you fast do so secretly''
    ''do not worry where your food and clothes will come from''
    ''seek first the Kingdom of God''

    to name a few. If Jesus was completely egoless, then wouldn't it make sense to do what he taught? He said ''if you want to see if what I say comes from God, just do it''. But how many people are willing to let go of all their ego and walk in faith? (not many, I can tell you).

    It could be, or it could not. You'll never know until you start trying to seek the will of God with all your heart.

    Perhaps you can give me a few quotes?

    To be honest, 'ego schmeego', I don't look at peoples post as look for ego, I just read what people say, and see if it's rational, irrational, honest, dishonest, if it leads to actual postive change in response to things like love, truth, and overcoming selfishness/greed etc. All those things MAY be ego, it's semantics to me.


    Lol. You could have fooled me.

    Well, I question strongly that this is what you want to see/hear, because otherwise your ego may have to die. You can't find fault in my work, so you find fault in my motivation, which is something you wouldn't know about.


    I don't know, I am still uprooting selfishness, greed, pride, laziness, prejudice, fear etc, from my life.

    Can you show me how ''all my actions and good deeds are phoney self-centered hype''? Again, you can't attach my work, but you try to attack my motivation. The exact thing that happened to Jesus. They couldn't fault what he did, but they did try to say he did it by the power of the devil.

    To love is the most important thing of all. I have lived a life motivated by love for myself, and I don't want to live that way. It brings suffering to me and to others. Jesus made it clear, ''No greater love has man than he lay down his life for his friends, ''A new commandment I give unto you, that you love one another as I have loved you''.

    The more I follow Jesus the more I see how unspiritual I am, as he shows me time and time again. So, who's escaping into lofty notions of being spiritual?

    Well, it looks like we agree on someting, i.e. I am not spiritual, but I am trying to be.


    Well, I since I have only 'met' you (if one can call conversing over a forum meeting someone), I wouldn't be able to make such a statement as ''you don't have any love in you'' (though it seems you are fine to make such a statement). I am confident you have love in you. We all do. We all have that of God in us. I think you have love in you.

    Love is more than a feeling my friend. You may not 'feel' love from me (but that does not mean love is not there). Perhaps you are looking for something that isn't actually love. I don't know...you'll need to work that out for yourself.
     
  6. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea An ordinary cup of tea

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    I'm with chakraman on the point that there might not be a practical way to solve the issues discussed. I'm not with him (I'm by myself it seems) on the point that the ego is only a negative force in our lives and that we should push it away.
    I do NOT consider ''you can't love others until you love yourself'' to be nonsense, though I can understand that people that haven't have had self-esteem issues might not 'get it'*. I haven't had that either, I have a huge ego and spend time to satisfy it so that I can be a good person to those around me.

    *I think it's common that people dismiss sayings and 'wisdom' because it doesn't apply to them, but we aren't all the same.
     
  7. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea An ordinary cup of tea

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    This I don't get. Then why do people 'sin'? Why don't everyone do what you do? How 'do we' change their behaviour? We don't?
     
  8. donnann

    donnann Active Member

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    When others are treating you badly it institutes a feeling of not loving yourself because it makes you feel that your not worthy of being loved. However when you find yourself others cannot effect you in that way anymore. When you find your own divine self , and you realize its a cycle.Ego isnt bad as long as its a good ego. Being proud of your own intellect and sharing that with others :)
     
  9. Gatekeeper

    Gatekeeper Shades of Reason

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    You're correct, we cannot force behavior or make others change, but I think we can be a light to others, showing and sharing love with them, and much like a pebble dropped in a pond, the ripples will affect those they touch. We can only change ourselves, but our lives affect the lives of others, so perhaps by changing self, we ultimately encourage change in others, if only in those we are close to.
     
  10. donnann

    donnann Active Member

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    Use the force luke ;( the force is acts of kindness this does change others. So I agree with you . Remember in the movie star wars even darth vader became his good self in the end.
     
  11. Gatekeeper

    Gatekeeper Shades of Reason

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    I thought you might like this:


    [youtube]IJWwTrXJa_M[/youtube]
     
  12. donnann

    donnann Active Member

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    Enlightenment.......a candle shines in the darkness when you participate in acts of kindness I would love to see as the song goes a sky full of lighters meanings everyone divine light lit.
     
  13. donnann

    donnann Active Member

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    The song the melody of a sky full of lighters is how it should be the rest of the lyrics are out of anger.; There is divine anger though running in and saving out of love ect. get it? Its a holy righteous anger and the power of it is awesome....again acts of kindness.
     
  14. donnann

    donnann Active Member

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    Veganism really is evolution or a reevolution of how it was in the garden of eden
     
  15. donnann

    donnann Active Member

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    The Creator(s) is a he a she and an it. Two that are also one and three as well. This is the only pattern.
     
  16. donnann

    donnann Active Member

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    She the actual female counterpart to GOD literally has never incarnated into the human body and never will. Just a fact.
     
  17. donnann

    donnann Active Member

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    So you not only have a heavenly father but also a heavenly mother and the two are actually one being. One right side one left.
     
  18. chakraman

    chakraman God save us from religion

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    i question whether jesus said any of that, it sounds completely wrong to me to admit time, psychological evolution and spiritual progress. i believe one of the problems of why the world is still barbaric is because we are caught in the idea of progress, that it is real and happening in us or outside of us and so a 1000 years go by and its still utter misery. i have not once said do not help your felow man outwardly in ther world, the exact opposite actually. surely if i'm deliberating whilst digging then its cool yeah? which is what i said.


    he might have done eh. but then might not of, we'll never know. even so telling someone not to be called rabbi or master is more telling them what not to do than giving a method for salvation, but its a fine line.

    theres i disparagy between jesus the man and what he was supposed to have said, some of it feels right to me and some utterly ridiculous, now you might say its because i don't want to do such and such and i would say its because someone else said it, after all there are no video tapes. so it makes it a bit difficult to do what he says if one is unsure as to whether the source is authentic. even so i don't feel a true religious person tells people what to do but rather points out the barriers to "oneness" or whatever.

    haha, you might as well of said it. but then i think i know better than you

    ah see because you have not really read my words. you have these notions of spiritual types into some strange eastern stuff or summat which preaches ego through eating nuts whist sitting under a tree and you projected that onto me. i made it clear to seek an egoless state was utterly stupid.

    i wasn't looking for ego, its the feeling i get whilst reading which i'm still getting. don't you get a feeling when you read peoples words, whether it is two men earnestly seeking together, friends trying to understand the complexities of life or a battle of one idea against another.
    it maybe my conceipt that i question your motivation but there you have it. i don't feel you do this out of selfless love for others but because the good book tells you so, because its noble, because you get a feeling of self worth out of it, forgetting yourself. i would not want to find fault in the digging of a well, after all thats a purely physical act, its why your there and why its needed that interests me.
    its an opinion, a feeling. call me cynical but humans are out for themself even when they seek to help others, because being wrapped up in themself causes them pain. the "work" is a means to free themself from that, its not important in itself, its what it enables the person to be free of. out of your "work" you seek self immolation. you might think there is nothing wrong with this but to me its the continuation and strengthening of your own self interest, just now it all sounds nice and noble.

    yes self love is pointless and indicates self doubt and the escape from it. i don't blame you for not wanting to live that way but as you say you still see how unspiritual you are so have you made any essential difference through your "work". the physical acts maybe necessary but your own transformation is paramount no? because only then are you out of the stream of sorrow and can help others to the shore. the work you are doing is needed because of selfishness and do you think someone can become less selfish, slowly over time, surely your either selfish or not. some people maybe greedier by degree or for spirituality rather than money but compared to the state of which i and you are speaking, they're no different, even in their apparent degrees.

    i thought your work was making you egoless? to me that sounds lofty. not that any doing can "make" someone egoless obviously, it comes at the end of effort i feel.

    why do you want to be spiritual at all? do you have some notion of what it means? is spirituality noble? this is where we differ. i don't want to be spiritual or egoless, i don't know what they mean seeing as i've never been there how can i wish to be it? you wish to forget your self love through immolising youself for a cause, i wish to understand my conflict anything else seems to me be action postponed. i'm interested in what is false not what is righteous. right living to me is a negation, i cannot seek it, it occurs when i have understood conflict and ended it. you seek
    i can the make the statemment that you have no love in you because i feel the antagonism in our exchange, don't you? you said yourself you're not spiritual so you agree with me. thats assuming that love and spirituality are part of the same stream, which would seem right.
    hiya m8. why should i look for anything, that would be to project something into it.

    aaah i hope this aint gonna go back and forth with me replying to protect my self image, rather listen to hip hop. not that i don't wanna partake but this typing doin my head in and its difficult to trade with someone who has more energy than you + my cognition is starting to tire. what music you like? fingers are like sausages from all the typing, i'm electro-sensitive ;(

    i'm a bit short on cash at the moment too, any chance you can help us out? your go straight to heaven i promise!
     
  19. donnann

    donnann Active Member

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    Brad Paisley - Remind Me (Duet With Carrie Underwood) - YouTube love this video shows it all between the male and female.
     
  20. chakraman

    chakraman God save us from religion

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