The Collective Messiah - Isaiah 53

Discussion in 'Judaism' started by Ben Masada, Oct 22, 2011.

  1. Ben Masada

    Ben Masada New Member

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    The Collective Messiah - Isaiah 53

    We all know that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah. So, no argument about it. But then whom did Isaiah have in mind when he wrote chapter 53? In fact, who was in his mind when he wrote the whole book? That's in Isaiah 1:1: "A vision about Judah and Jerusalem." That's the theme of the book of Isaiah: Judah. Or the House of Jacob called by the name Israel from the stock of Judah. (Isa. 48:1)

    Now, how about the Suffering Servant? Isaiah mentions him by name, which is Israel according to Isaiah 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21. Now, we have extablished a syllogism. If the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah, and the Suffering Servant is Israel, the resultant premise will obviously be that Israel (the Jewish People) is the Messiah. Rashi thought so too, and a few other thinkers of weight.

    Now, if the Messiah must also bring the epitet of son of God, there is no problem. We can have it from Exodus 4:22,23. Here's what it says in there: "Israel is My son; so, let My son go, that he may serve Me," says the Lord. That's why Hosea said that "When Israel was a child, God said, out of Egypt I called My son." (Hosea 11:1)

    Last but not least, Jesus no doubt was part of the Messiah but not on an individual basis. The Messiah is collective. What we need from time to time, especially in exile, is of a Messianic leader to lead or inspire the Messiah to return home. Moses was one for bringing the Messiah back to Canaan. Cyrus was another for proclaiming the return of the Messiah to rebuild the Temple; which he contributed heavily finacially; and in our modern times, we had Herzl who was also one for inspiring the Messiah with love for Zion.

    How about Jesus, what do we have to classify him as at least a Messianic leader? Well, when he was born Israel was at home, although suffering under the foreign power of the Romans. As he grew up that suffering only got worse. When he left, the collective Messiah was expelled into another exile of about 2000 years. Not even as a Messianic leader he could not classify. Let alone as the Messiah himself.

    Now, I would appreciate to share your comments about the above.

    Ben
     
  2. Divos

    Divos New Member

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    The Only person that is Refereed as a literal Messiah in Isaiah is "King Cyrus"

    Isaiah 45:1
    This is what the LORD says to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of to subdue nations before him and to strip kings of their armor, to open doors before him so that gates will not be shut

    This is what the LORD says to his anointed, to Cyrus
    This is what the LORD says to his Messiah, to Cyrus
    This is what the LORD says to his Christ, to Cyrus

    The Entire book of Isaiah, it is based upon King Cyrus, its not a Prophetic Document, its Historical mixed with Poetic literature.
     
  3. Ben Masada

    Ben Masada New Member

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    Divos, as I have told you before, I was impressed with your research, but now, with this post of yours, you have stumbled and fallen. Would you be able to quote in Isaiah your last statement above? I don't think so. But I am to refute it that the entire book of Isaiah is not based upon king Cyrus, and that it is a prophetic document. The whole book is about a vision of Isaiah concerning Judah and Jerusalem and not king Cyrus. Read Isaiah 1:1 and 2:1. The whole book is a prophetic document for having been composed during a vision, which was the method used by the prophets to understand God's will. (Numb. 12:6) King Cyrus just happened to be mentioned in Isaiah 45 for his role on the freedom of Judah from the Babylonian exile.

    There are different meanings for the word "anointed" in Hebrew. You compare it to Messiah and Christ in the case of king Cyrus, I don't know the reason why. All kings of Israel were anointed in the day of their nomination into power. Prophets were anointed. Priests were anointed when one among them was chosen to become the High Priest. And, according to a Jewish custom, the dead was anointed for burial. In the case of king Cyrus, not that he was actually anointed as anything, but that he was considered by Isaiah as an anointed of HaShem, as a kind of Messianic leader, and not actually the Messiah.

    As a footnote, do you have any idea why verse 3 of Psalm 2 is a reference to God's anointed in the plural? Because the Psalmist is talking about Israel as a People in the role of the anointed of HaShem. Read Psalm 2:2,3. This is a classic example of God's People as the Messiah. And as long as the sun is in the sky for a light by day, and the moon and stars for lights by night, Israel is to remain as a People before the Lord forever. (Jer. 31:35-37)
    Ben
     
  4. Divos

    Divos New Member

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    How can it be a Vision, your saying the entire book its Back(Cyrus) and Forth(Jesus), Back(Cyrus) and Forth(Jesus), Back(Cyrus) and Forth(Jesus), Back(Cyrus) and Forth(Jesus).

    Cyrus
    (Older then Isaiah)
    Text of the Charter of Human Rights of Cyrus
    Now that with the grace of Mazda I am crowned for the kingdom of Iran ,
    Babylonia and the four cardinal countries , I declare that :

    Then in Isaiah it states

    Isaiah 11:12
    And HE(Cyrus) shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

    Also, in the Plagiarized Revelations

    Revelation 7:1
    1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

    Original
    four cardinal countries

    Biblical
    Four Corners
    Four Beasts
    Four Angels

    Isaiah 11:15
    And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.

    Notice, that "LORD" interchanges with "CYRUS" because "Cyrus" IS "Lord God"
    Get it?
     
  5. Divos

    Divos New Member

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    Isaiah 1:1
    The vision concerning Judah and Jerusalem that Isaiah son of Amoz saw during the reigns of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

    It means, he is writing about the EVENTS during Uzziah-Hezakiah, specifically that of CYRUS

    In the last days

    the mountain of the LORD’s(Cyrus's) temple will be established
    as the highest of the mountains;
    it will be exalted above the hills,
    and all nations(Four Corners/Cardinals) will stream to it.

    3 Many peoples will come and say,

    “Come, let us go up to the mountain(Throne) of the LORD(Cyrus),
    to the temple of the God of Jacob.
    He will teach us his ways,
    so that we may walk in his paths.”
    The law will go out from Zion(the Desert),
    the word(Law) of the LORD(CYRUS) from Jerusalem.
    4 He(CYRUS) will judge between the nations
    and will settle disputes for many peoples.
    They will beat their swords(CYRUS is Commander) into plowshares
    and their spears into pruning hooks.
    Nation will not take up sword against nation,
    nor will they train for war anymore.

    Cyrus means "Like the Sun" Sun is synonymous with GOD,He is the Law Givers, and a PEACEMAKER
    (Cyrus the Historical Krishna?)
     
  6. Ben Masada

    Ben Masada New Member

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  7. Ben Masada

    Ben Masada New Member

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  8. Divos

    Divos New Member

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    Cyrus IS Lord God, in Ancient times GODS are always equated with the KING, Emperor, Pharaoh, Ruler.

    Cyrus is "Lord God" in Isaiah

    Cyrus the Great has been given many names: Cyrus the enlightened liberator, Cyrus the benevolent, Cyrus the Law-giver, Cyrus the righteous, Cyrus the heroic conqueror, Cyrus the tolerant King, and many more. No other man so far back in ancient history had been showered with such accolades by kings and emperors who knew of him only by reputation.

    "Messianic Movement" are purely political, nothing to do with the Torah or its Religions, Julius Caesar Death incited this so called movement.


    Isaiah 11:12 And HE(Cyrus) shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

    Many believe "4 Corners" suggests Flat Earth, if you read Cyrus Stela, its shows its true meaning

     
  9. bob x

    bob x New Member

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    The reigns of Uzziah through Hezekiah were over two centuries before Cyrus.

    There are two different books of "Isaiah", one a collection of prophecies given at the courts of Judah (each prophecy in 1st Isaiah has its own heading), and the other a discursive essay written late in the Babylonian Captivity (the "Suffering Servant" chapters as well as the concluding mention of Cyrus are from 2nd Isaiah).
     
  10. Ben Masada

    Ben Masada New Member

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    Pity! You argue like a little child. To me, you are beyond repair. Have a good day.
    Ben
     
  11. Divos

    Divos New Member

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    Comparative research

    Why would god, stick his Nose within Human Affairs, in Isaiah, and not at Hitler[worst then Nebuchadnezzar]who killed 6 Millions Jews, AH, The Jews get a Sorry Present, Israel, off course, in the process creating a Second Holocaust
     
  12. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    There he goes again, into the infantile fantasy world of puerile and unproven anti-Semitism. Must get off floor and quit guffawing!

    Pax et amore omnia vincunt!
     
  13. bananabrain

    bananabrain awkward squadnik

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    "second holocaust"?

    honestly, what total arsewash. i'm noticing a pattern emerging, but i'm afraid it's not one of convincing historical insight.

    if you haven't got anything useful to say, then perhaps you should consider not saying anything.

    b'shalom

    bananabrain
     
  14. Divos

    Divos New Member

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    yeah, the Zionists (or is it Nazists) are very ignorant, they don't have any Feeling, they are Numb, Cold, and Pathetic to be called Human
     
  15. Ben Masada

    Ben Masada New Member

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    No comment.
     
  16. Ben Masada

    Ben Masada New Member

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    No comment.
     
  17. donnann

    donnann Active Member

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    By flat they are talking about the universe and also the poles.
     
  18. voice

    voice Interfaith Forums

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    The time of Spring or Vernal equinox is a time of renewal in Nature and in Man. This is also the Messiah of Israel. Israel as a nation is Messiah- a light for nations , championed by moral and spiritual qualities.
     
  19. donnann

    donnann Active Member

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    Remember the scriptures say I have sent ye saviours.
     
  20. voice

    voice Interfaith Forums

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    you'r rayt donnan. no single personal saviour ,who show us 70 faces of G _D. But personal saviours like Cyrus ,Julus casear ,herzel , Mary Baker Eddy ,Rabbi Alfred G. Moses , Rabbi David Louis etc who showed one face of . . .
     

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