Symmetry: Derail from Sound and Sacred Geometry

Discussion in 'Belief and Spirituality' started by seattlegal, May 14, 2012.

  1. Bhaktajan II

    Bhaktajan II Hare Krishna Yogi

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    a] I remember where 'iron-filings' were placed atop a drum skin [surface of a drums taut surface] ---and then, a pattern would form as per different sounds resonating upon the drum. .

    TBC?

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    b] I stubled upon this artical I had fpound and kept for the net. The Names etc must be googled to find this 1995 reprinted article. Th architect cited was retired back in 1988.

    Master Builder Uncovers Striking Similarities In Indian and Incan / Mayan Sacred Structures - Architecture

    Reprinted Courtesy of Hinduism Today, June 1995

    Ancient Architects Employed Analogous Design Doctrines and Masonry Methods
    Mr. V. Ganapati Sthapati [Indian Born Architect] measured with tape, compass and a lay-out story pole, two ancient Incan structures at Machu Picchu: a temple and a residence, in South America.
    He has confirmed that the layout of these structures, locations for doors, windows, proportions of width to length, roof styles, degree of slopes for roofs, column sizes, wall thicknesses, etc., all conform completely to the principles and guidelines as prescribed in the Shaastra Vaastu of India.
    Residential layouts are identical to those found in Mohenjodaro. The temple layouts are identical to those that he is building today and that can be found all over India."
    These startling discoveries came during a March, 1995, visit of the master builder to the ancient Incan and Mayan sites of South and Central America.
    Mr. Ganapati Sthapati is India's foremost traditional temple architect and perhaps the first true expert in sculpture and stone construction to personally examine these ancient buildings. To do so has been his dream since the 1960's.
    It is Sthapati's theory that ‘Maya-deva’, the creator of Indian architecture, originated from the Mayan people of Central America.
    In Indian history, ‘Maya-deva’ appears several times, most significantly as the author of Mayamatam, "Concept of Mayam" which is a Vastu Shastra, a text on art, architecture and town planning. The traditional date for this work is 8,000bce.
    ‘Maya-deva’ appears in the Ramayana (13000bce) and again in the Mahabharata (3000bce)-in the latter he designs a magnificent palace for the Pandava brothers.
    ‘Maya-deva’ is also mentioned in Silappathikaram, an ancient Tamil scripture, and is author of Surya Siddhanta, one of the most ancient Hindu treatises on astronomy.
    The fundamental principle of Mayan's architecture and town planning is the "module." Buildings and towns are to be laid out according to certain multiples of a standard unit. Floor plans, door locations and sizes, wall heights and roofs, all are determined by the modular plan.
    More specifically, ‘Maya-deva’ advocated the use of an eight-by-eight square, for a total of 64 units, which is known as the Vastu Purusha Mandala.

    The on-site inspection by Sthapati was to determine if the Incan and Mayan structures did follow a modular plan and reflect the Vastu Purusha Mandala. He also intended to examine the stone working technology-his particular field of expertise.
    Sthapati was born in 1927 into a family whose ancestors, members of the family lineage of Viswakarma-deva, built the great temple at Tanjore in the 10th century ce at the request of Raja Raja Chola.
    Machu Picchu
    The moment Sthapati approached an ancient Incan residential building at Machu Picchu on March 15th, he pointed at the wall and said, "That is a thickness of one kishku hasta"-33 inches, a standard measure in South India first promulgated by Mayan.
    He proceeded to measure the buildings in detail and discovered each was indeed built on a module-based plan, following the system of Mayan's eight-by-eight squares. The module method was followed within small fractions of an inch.
    The buildings were oriented toward certain points of the compass, also a principle of Mayan, rather than randomly placed. Also the lengths of buildings were never more than twice their width, as Mayan stipulated.
    From Machu Picchu they traveled to Saqsayhuman, an Incan site dated from 400 bce to 1400 ce. Here are the famous stone walls made of rocks weighing up to 160 tons and fitted together so expertly that a knife blade cannot be put in any joint.
    Sthapati pointed out the insets chiseled into the base of many stones, as well as small knobs left on their faces.
    "These are for the use of levers, the exact same system we continue to use in India to move large stones. Thirty to forty men can move these very large rocks with this method," he explained to the guide's astonishment.
    He could see other details of the stone working were identical to what is practiced in India, such as the method of quarrying stones by splitting off slabs.
    So too was the jointing and fitting of stones, the use of lime mortar, leveling with a plumb line and triangle, and the corbeling for the roofs. Corbeling is the method by which stones are drawn in layer by layer until they meet or nearly meet to allow a roof slab to be placed on top.
    Sthapati considers the similarity of this technology to that used in India to be very significant.
    The use of the horizontal lintel and the absence of the arch are additional noteworthy points of correspondence between the two traditions.
    Land of the Mayans
    Amidst the crowds, Sthapati, Deva and Thamby again unsheathed their tape measures and closely examined the Pyramid of the Castle. It too conformed to the Vastu Vedic principles of Mayan.
    The temple structure at the top was exactly 1/4th of the base. And the stepped pyramid design derived from a three-dimensional extension of the basic eight-by-eight grid system. The temple room at the top was also modular in design, with the wall thickness determining the size of doorways, location of columns, thickness of columns and the width and length of the structure.
    Most interesting was the name of this structure-chilambalam, meaning a sacred space. It is Sthapati's theory that the Mayans worshiped the very concept of space, specifically a space made according to the modular system.
     
  2. Bhaktajan II

    Bhaktajan II Hare Krishna Yogi

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    This same idea is found in Hinduism in the sacred room in the center of the Chidambaram Siva Temple in South India, where space or akasha is worshiped-there is no idol.
    Chidambaram, Sthapati finds suspiciously like chilambalam, means "hall of consciousness." The concept of sacred space is at the center of the mystical shilpi tradition of India.
    The richly decorated Mayan buildings provided a feast for a sculptor's eye. There is a very common feature called a "mask" by the archeologists, but known to the Mayans as "Big Nose." A nearly identical face is a common feature of Hindu iconography, seen, for example, at the top of the arch placed behind a deity. "It is the very same thing in India," chuckled Sthapati, "we call it `Maha Nyasa'-Big Nose!" Several other details of the sculptures were similar or identical to India, such as the earrings, ear plugs, teeth, head dresses, even buckles around the waist. There are bas reliefs of priests sitting in lotus posture meditating.
    From Chichén Itzá, they traveled on to Uxmal where they observed the snake and "bindu" designs on the wall faces, the thousands of pyramids at Tikal and Uxacturn in Guatemala, all laid out to conform to a grid pattern and oriented in astronomically significant directions.
    As in Mayan buildings, Indians have been using lime mortar for all of their stone and brick buildings. The outer surfaces were plastered, embellishments worked out in lime mortar, then painted. This method was strongest among the Mayas at Tikal and Uaxactún, where all of the structures once had a plaster coating painted with many colors.
    What is the Connection?
    Sri Ganapati Sthapati postulates, that Maya-dhavana-deva”, the divine architect of the ‘Asuras’, of Indian tradition, came from Central
    Perhaps the coincidences of stone working are just that, coincidence … But this explanation hardly accounts for the similarities in motifs and

    The Vastu Vedic Tradition
    V. Ganapati Sthapati spoke eloquently during our interviews of the deep mysticism of his tradition.

    Here is an excerpt from his paper,
    "Synthesis of Science and Spirituality in the Vastu Vedic Tradition of Art and Architecture."
    The Vastu Shilpa tradition of Indian origin has made a scientific approach to the problems of spirit and spiritual realization.
    This scientific tradition of Va-stu perceives Shakti [energy] as all-pervasive and as the casual substance for all the manifestations of visual and aural phenomena in the universe. They have named their Shakti as Paravastu in Sanskrit and the universal objects as Vastu.
    The word Paravastu means the quintessence or the ultimate substance. This phenomenon of Vastu and Va-stu can be equated to gold turned into gold ornaments, the shilpi acting as the agent for the transformation. Further, this Vastu is recognized by the Vastu tradition as one dwelling in the inner space of individual beings as well as in the outside space, the universal being.
    The science says that it is space, because of its self-propelled vibration, that turns into forms-the vibration force acting as the working agency. To do this is its unquestionable nature. This agency is designated as Absolute Time, emerging out of space.
    This is analogous to the vibration of the instrument of the vina developing into sound space. Here, sound space turns into sound form, and this when set to rhythmic vibration turns into musical form.
    There is also another space responsible for the sound space. It is called luminous space. This pervades the entire universe (cosmos). This is the ultimate space wherein lie the Absolute Time and Absolute Energy.
    This is filled with luminous substance (Vastu) consisting of Paramanus, the minute particles of space. This luminous space is supersensitive, capable of becoming conscious of itself and vibrating into objects that it becomes conscious of.
    This action is its intrinsic nature and responsible for the forms that occur in the inner space of individuals as well as in the outer space of the universe.
    The experience of this form, in terms of space, is Spiritual Vision. This phenomenon is nothing but abstract science held by the Vastu tradition.
    The Vastu tradition designates the inner being as Shilpi and the inner manifest subtle form as Shilpa, and as such the whole inner and outer universes are filled with shilpas.
    The gross visual forms are projected outside from the inside, by the inner being. This is the transformation of the subtle inner form into the gross visual, through the fingers exactly in tune with the subtle in terms of time and space.
    That "the sculptor becomes the sculpture and the poet becomes the poem" is therefore a powerful Vaignanic statement of the Vastu Vedins, and it is of pure advaitic tone. The projected visual form has the touch of a lyric, depending upon the individual inner culture.
    The Linguistic Similarities
    Chacla in Mayan refers to force centers of the body similar to the chakras of Hinduism. K'ultanlilni in Mayan refers to the power of God within man which is controlled by the breath, similar in meaning to kundalini.
    Mayan chilambalam refers to a sacred space, as does Tamil Chidambaram. Yok'hah in Mayan means "on top of truth," similar to yoga in Sanskrit.
    :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
    I have parsed the words for brevity.

    The cool thing is the idea of Architecture built for the purposes of audio-sound enhancements et al.

    We must created a cheat-sheet bullet list of the postings above as a reference.
     
  3. Bhaktajan II

    Bhaktajan II Hare Krishna Yogi

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    Vijayanagara - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    One of the notable features of the Vittala Temple is the musical pillars. Each of the pillars that support the roof of the main temple is supported by a pillar representing a musical instrument, and is constructed as 7 minor pillars arranged around a main pillar. These 7 pillars, when struck, emanate the 7 notes from the representative instrument, varying in sound quality based on whether it represents a wind, string or percussion instrument.
     
  4. Bhaktajan II

    Bhaktajan II Hare Krishna Yogi

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    VEDA - Vedas and Vedic Knowledge Online - Vedic Encyclopedia, Bhakti-yoga in vedas, Library

    Vedic Conception of Sound in Four Features . . .

    In the Vedantic traditions sound is considered one of the most important principles of existence, as it is both the source of matter and the key to become free from it. One who can thoroughly understand the four stages of sound as explained in the Vedic texts can utilize this science to become free from the bondage of matter.

    When trying to understand the four levels of sound, we must first understand what is "sound" as defined in the scriptures. . . .

    Creation and the origin of sound

    In the beginning there was darkness of pradhana, the unmanifested material energy. When agitated by Lord Vishnu’s powerful glance in the form of energy of time (kala-sakti), it was awakened to the stage called mahat (the great matter). Gradually the following elements were generated: ahankara (false ego), manah (mind) and buddhi (intelligence), tan matras (sense objects) and panca bhutas (the five gross material elements).

    Together they form Karana-sagara or Causal ocean. The Lord then expanded Himself and entered into the Causal ocean. From His body came forth the seeds of millions of universes. The Lord then expanded and laid down within each and every universes.

    In his navel lake a small transcendental seed was generated, which grew into a lotus flower that contains all the planetary systems. Within that lotus the first created being, Lord Brahma appeared.

    He was perplexed about his origin and destiny, but suddenly from nearby he heard two syllables ta – pa (Practice austerities!) Thus initiated by the Supreme Lord, Brahma underwent severe austerities and was rewarded with Vedic wisdom for his great task of secondary creation.

    The first living entity that appeared from Lord Brahma was pranava, the transcendental sound omkara (om). From om came all the sounds of the alphabet.
    Human sound creation

    According to traditional phonetics (siksaa), the self (atma) formulates intentions by means of intelligence (buddhi) and inspires the mind (mana) to speak.

    The mind impulses the body fire (kayagni) it in turn sets in motion breath (maruta) that moving in the chest, generates a humming sound (mandra) that again rising to the palate and crown of the head, and rebounding thence, passes to the mouth and produces articulate sounds like vowels and consonants.

    Related:
    Creation and Annihilation of the Universe
    Creation in the Vedic tradition - an encyclopedic entry
    Vedic Planetarium - walk through the universe
    Three gunas
     
  5. seattlegal

    seattlegal Mercuræn Buddhist

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    luecy PM'd me and assured me it wasn't him. (Just to clear that up)
     
  6. seattlegal

    seattlegal Mercuræn Buddhist

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    Now that you mention the Mayans, bhaktajan, this factoid just bubbled up from my memory: The symbol the Mayans used for zero was a shell. (like the unmanifest holding the manifest in this post?)

    Yes, this thread was originally from a derail, so wandering isn't a big deal in this thread. :)
     
  7. BrotherMichaelSky

    BrotherMichaelSky Well-Known Member

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    I REALLY, REALLY appreciate many things i have found within Hinduism and Buddhism....
    I get deeply sidetracked and spend hours reading translations... enjoying myself the whole time..... but at the end of it all, I just have a very difficult time equating what I am experiencing, with the Logic mixed with Symbolism that I find within those sources....
    The necessary descriptiveness of these writings results in the need to ( somehow) equate my EXPERIENCES into completely unfamiliar terms....

    Yes, I have this problem with other traditions... but not nearly to the point I have with Hindu thought.... at times it is very frustrating - as I believe there is a deep wealth of information for me within those sources..

    but how to begin to relate...? ( well, in a deeper way - because to be completely honest I have already gained much from them )
     
  8. Bhaktajan II

    Bhaktajan II Hare Krishna Yogi

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    My personal postulation is the Maya found and reclaimed from the earth what we presently associate as architecture that They built.

    IMO, My personal postulation is hyroglyphics were utilised to convey messages to illiterates [sp?] from a centralised governing class.

    I see the Maya culture that has been popularise nowadays as remnents of a culture that predates the builders of Mayan Architecture along with its canals systems etc. IMO, the Maya people found around the archeological sites were indigenous forest tribes that later gravitaed to the abandoned sites until Columbus etal came along.

    The excerpt was exquisitely expressed.

    Also, are you telling me that the excerpt was a bonefide rendering of a] the texts; and, b] it is the orthodox belief of the Daodejing school?
     
  9. Bhaktajan II

    Bhaktajan II Hare Krishna Yogi

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    I presume that there is a system of 'vocabulary' that is related to the experiences you've had.

    Carlos Castaneda?

    It is nothing outragous to express things in ones own way.

    Though, We do hope for clarity in all descriptions.
     
  10. seattlegal

    seattlegal Mercuræn Buddhist

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    It isn't a rendering of any text that I'm aware of, but it does follow the ideas expressed in the Tao Te Ching and the Taijitu shuo, as well as Chuang Tzu and the Yi of the I Ching.
     
  11. seattlegal

    seattlegal Mercuræn Buddhist

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    I found that studying Buddhism really helped me to understand Christianity. It's also given me a bit of a footing on which to approach Hinduism. (Personally, I find see more parallels in Hinduism to Western pagan traditions than I see in Taoism. {I need to add my own subtitles from Chuang Tzu and The Tao Te Ching when studying things like Plato's World of Forms in order to get it to click.} Your mileage may vary.)
     
  12. BrotherMichaelSky

    BrotherMichaelSky Well-Known Member

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    :) if there WAS i could collate...

    I am trying to place my experiences with what i find written....

    I have experiences which do not relate to language at all... which is where my difficulty comes in...
     
  13. seattlegal

    seattlegal Mercuræn Buddhist

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    One word: art!

    {A picture is worth a thousand words}
     
  14. BrotherMichaelSky

    BrotherMichaelSky Well-Known Member

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    There is more enjoyment ahead of you....

    Follow the idea of One God from the Zoroastrian belief and into spread which occurred later - Judaism,Hinduism,Buddhism, and several other belief systems come from ideas which were preconceived during Zoroaster's lifetime....

    The idea spread in many directions - even to the orient....

    It is the language which completely throws me in Hinduism - such a large body of material to try to get a handhold on....with a ridiculous amount still untranslated...
     
  15. Etu Malku

    Etu Malku Mercuræn

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    Speaking of Sound & Sacred Geometry (LOL) here's my latest composition
    Abu fi ha Ma'at
     
  16. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    BMS,

    I have found that the origins of Buddhism and the origins of Hinduism are very similar. The way I see it, the two religions were originally teaching the same things, but evolved into very different religions as the centuries went by.

    For example, I see the Buddhist concept of Sunyata as being equal to the Hindu concept of Parabrahman, and I see the Buddhist concept of Avalokiteshvara as being equal to the Hindu concept of Brahman. There are many more examples if we only look for them.
     
  17. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    Nick, Jainism is kinda-sorta the tread linking the two. The movement is from Veddism to Jainism to Buddhism to the many individual forms of Hinduism and Buddhism found today.
     
  18. Nick the Pilot

    Nick the Pilot Well-Known Member

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    Radar,

    I would add Christianity and Judiasm to your list. I see original Christianity and original Judiam as very similar to all of these other religions.

    For example, I see

    the Christian concept of the Void
    the Hindu concept of Parabrahman
    the Jewish concept of Ayin
    the Norse mythology concept of Darkness
    the Buddhist concept of Sunyata

    as being identical.
     
  19. seattlegal

    seattlegal Mercuræn Buddhist

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    I'll tell you, creating something can really help out in that regard, especially if you pay attention to your mistakes. Your subconscious mind can bubble through to give your conscious mind a concept, or something, that your conscious mind can start to build words around. Even if you play with play-doh, or manipulate existing images in photoshop or something, it opens an avenue for your subconscious mind to "speak" to your conscious mind. It often winds up with a *doh* moment--in that you could overlook such an obvious insight.

    It's worth a try. :)
     
  20. seattlegal

    seattlegal Mercuræn Buddhist

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    Is the title a sideways pun reference to Fi Hagat?
     

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