The Divine Connexion

Discussion in 'Belief and Spirituality' started by radarmark, Aug 23, 2012.

  1. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    I won't. I hope you enjoy it!

    Here's a thought: As I see it, the Divine Connection is a matter of Grace. So I thought's I'd bring St Thomas into play, as he offers some good working guidelines on the matter. Seems a bit heavy-handed to do so here, however, so I've opened a new topic in the Theology section.

    God bless

    Thomas
     
  2. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Something on grace from the Angelic Doctor:

    "And because grace is above human nature, it cannot be a substance or a substantial form, but is an accidental form of the soul. Now what is substantially in God, becomes accidental in the soul participating the Divine goodness, as is clear in the case of knowledge. And thus because the soul participates in the Divine goodness imperfectly, the participation of the Divine goodness, which is grace, has its being in the soul in a less perfect way than the soul subsists in itself. Nevertheless, inasmuch as it is the expression or participation of the Divine goodness, it is nobler than the nature of the soul, though not in its mode of being."
    ST I/II q110 a1

    Thus we view the 'Divine Connection' as a gift of God, and not something inherent to human nature, the Divine Communion is not a 'right' to which humanity has a claim.

    God bless

    Thomas
     
  3. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    This is Classic....is this the liturgical teaching you've told me of??

    What is this name "He" gave us that I never use??

    While we know scripture was written by man....and we know it was written in koine greek, aramaic and hebrew.... I'll accept all that....

    Now tell us all what this name "He" gave us is and where it is found in scripture.

    "I am" waiting.
     
  4. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Have we lost our 'divine connexion'?


    (note: I've deleted the paragraphs that you had issues with, that you took personally, and left the crux of the post)

    Spoiler Alert....

    Short answer, No.

    I don't believe we as mankind have lost our disconnect with G!d....we never had it as a whole....yeah we may have been part of a collective dream....but the connection and awareness of same is an individual experience.

    The sun is shining.....we can choose to keep the blinds closed and whine, we can choose to turn on the telly and imagine that that 'light' emitting and that televangelist is providing us a connection....or we can open the curtains and let the light shine in....

    or we can open our heart and let our light shine out....

    no.....we've not lost or misplaced our divine connection....

    look neither high nor low.....it is in your midst.

    quit building edifices to substitute for the connection.....and connect.

    bliss.....thanx.

    (note RM, all the while writing this I'm thinking of sitting in a quaker service....it would be this that is rolling thru my head.....but I don't stand up...maybe I should....or maybe I shouldn't have here either)
     
  5. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    No.

    Abba?
    Cf Mark 14:36, Romans 8:15, Galatians 4:6. The term is Aramaic, the language that Our Lord spoke. Abba implies a parent/child relationship, it's far more intimate than 'father' as it is generally used.

    The 'Father' references are to numerous to list.

    'God' is not a name, it's a designation, like 'man' or 'table' ...
    In the same way, the "I am ..." of Exodus 3:14 is also a designation.

    God bless

    Thomas
     
  6. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    As long as it's individual, is incomplete. Humanity is a collective.

    You just can't pass up the chance to have a pop, can you?

    Sorry ... you say 'bliss' and I see sentimentality.

    If we have not lost or misplaced, what is the light we do not comprehend that John speaks of (John 1:4-5)?

    If Christ is not God, then where is the 'divine connection' you speak of? All I read in your words is nice thoughts, but no 'divine connection' as such. And I think there's more to the divine than what lives in the human heart.

    God bless

    Thomas
     
  7. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    Let me put forward a third option. As hunter-gatherers with a shamanistic spirituality we may have been wrong (farting into a blizzard would not stop it), but we felt more at-one-ment (wholeness) with the world around us and more holiness (worthy to be worshipped) in the spiritual.

    Yes, there have always (or nearly always) been individuals "D!vinely Inspired" (Adam in Islam or "The Old Man" in Taoism). But I am talking about the 7 or 8 or 9 sigma which are the most of us.

    By nature, no, we have not lost the potential for "D!vine Connexion". By temperament, education, sociology, culture, I believe we have.

    Why do so many just jump on the bandwagon of the latest internet conspiracy theory or charismatic religious leaders who claim to have all the answers? Why do more and more people truly believe in material monism? Why all the increasing exploitation of Mother Nature? Why all the materialism?

    It is my opinion we (as a collective) just do not think holistically anymore. Not magically or superstitiously, just in terms of the all.
     
  8. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Agreed.

    The only point of divergence, I think, is that the Abrahamic Traditions see the Divine as extra to human nature. Human nature is not intrinsically divine

    Agreed. Enjoy McGilchrist!

    God bless

    Thomas
     
  9. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    Of course, Thomas. G!D is not humanity, nor humanity G!D. We create almost nothing, reveal almost nothing, and have any a secondary (if very improtant) role in redemption.

    "If all th prople on th planet and all the builings of it should suddenly disappear,
    Would a zebra on the African plains shed even one tiny zebra tear?
    Questions for the angels." -- Paul Simon
     
  10. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    EXACTLY....

    Abba.... closest thing we have stateside would be 'daddy'. And I sit in the lap of daddy, of course if we are anthropomorphising my state of bliss, it is much more of a snuggled into a large buxom water beddish grandmotherly feeling, the comfort and protection that is beyond reproach, but of course all descriptions are lacking so abba, abba, abba, I'll use G!d. tis just as comfortable and I thank our jewish friends for it and honor G!d with it.
     
  11. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Sorry to disagree, but I disagree completely...

    I see the world as turning, turning around like it hasn't in centuries...

    we've been materialistic and dogmatic in our religions for the past two millenia easily and we are only now getting into a real connection.....

    the world is more at peace in the past 50 years than it has ever been....we are turning the tide on energy use and materialism, and a respect, admiration and understanding of nature...like we have never before...

    we have a tendency to romanticize the past, it is a grevious mistake....we are entering the land of milk and honey...(now that we know neither should be touched)
     
  12. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    You say tomato I say tomato. I grok your point-of-view. I am not romanticizing some past time (I am pretty much with Hobbes, “the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short” in the past). I am just more pessimistic than thou. The Who’s “Won’t Get Fooled Again” rather than Lennon’s “Imagine”.

    Be that as it may, the question remains: why do so many people today feel disconnected from the richness and wholeness that is the world?

    In the USA a Congressional Research Service Report (R40535) points out the burden of disconnectedness among the young and Cornwell and White (“Social Disconnectedness”) identifies the impact on the aging (like me!). There is even a “new” neurological disorder, “Functional Disconnected Syndrome”. Okay, maybe we are crying in our beer a little here, but whether it is because we had to spend a good deal of time scrounging out a living as hunter gatherers and we feel disconnected because we just have more free time, or it is because we (like children) had a magical feeling really does not matter.

    My own opinion is that this is a function of Modernism. We in the West killed G!D in the ravings of Nietzsche and cooked H!R up in the ovens of Auschwitz. The materialists (Communist and Capitalists both) substituted empirical facts for faith and the Vienna Circle banished emotion as meaningless. Worse yet, eliminative materialism (see Churchland, Dennett et al) has eliminated even thought.

    Is there a counter-current? Yes. Rosenzweig answered Nietzsche, Whitehead answered Carnap et al. Chalmers counters eliminative materialism. Yet, is the answer to little, too late? I just do not know.

    What does this mean for Faith and Spirituality? Many of our young people are educated to be closed-minded about it. Either they are Radical Religious Fundamentalists (take your choice… Shinto, Hindu, Muslim, Jewish, or Christian) or they are Radical Rationalists (thank you, Ayn Rand).

    Where can one find the handful of like-minded souls who just want to share Spiritual stories and insights, without judgment, and answer “that was insightful, now this is what my people believe”? (actual quote from a sweat lodge with lots of diverse Natives and Aboriginals in the dark).
     
  13. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    Oh ... my ... word ...

    You're under the impression that Christ came along, did whatever magic He did, and all we have to do is sit back and soak up the rewards!

    I never saw it before. Now everything you say makes sense.

    God bless.

    Thomas
     
  14. Sam Albion

    Sam Albion akaFrancisKing:ViveLeRoi!

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    ...they exist everywhere, but generally, the intellectuals do not want to listen to them. These crazies, with their stories -- the intellectuals look down their noses at these smelly, cross eyed weirdoes. They want more, they want brighter, they want the big words about dictomies and antipathies; crazies don't speak like that. Instead, the crazies talk about their dreams, and the synchronous moments to the other crazies, but their fleeting feelings are worthless, and unempirical, and to the clever folk, worthless...
     
  15. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    SA,

    So by your definition or criteria they could end up here (and you would be one)?
     
  16. Bhaktajan II

    Bhaktajan II Hare Krishna Yogi

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    Me too, Sorry to disagree, but I disagree completely...

    Look-up "genocide in the 20th Century" ---aside from the basic Vital-stats.


    http://www.interfaith.org/forum/god-and-god-know-ye-15025-9.html#post268923

    here is a chart I posted from a National Geographic magazine Jan 2006:

    Mortality*** Rates of the 20th Century

    ***the article was about "genocide", thus,
    the rate of war deaths is the central data here.
     
  17. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    The numbers of deaths today are appalling, but we are looking at if from our perspective...

    When you compare the deaths and violence today to yesteryear as a percentage of the population....as I said, the last 50 years are the most peaceful times we have seen.

    Your chart proves my point....for this century....now continue back through time....with the abolition of human trafficking in many countries it has been reduced even further...
     
  18. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    No magic Thomas, Jesus, a Jew, through the teachings and his understandings realized his oneness with G!d....put on 'the mind of Christ' as Paul implores us to do.

    G!d is not attempting to teach us to roll over and shake hands to get little doggie tricks....the creator has no such ego which would require the created to dance for rewards.

    Allowing....gratitude, gratefulness, acceptance...it ain't that hard, G!d is good.
     
  19. Bhaktajan II

    Bhaktajan II Hare Krishna Yogi

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    I do not see how you have arrived at your statistics.

    1960 China –– 30,000,000
    2005 Sudan –––2,850,000
    Algeria –––––––––30,000
    Chile –––––––––––10,000
    Rwanda ––––––1,020,000
    Zaire –––––––14,0001970
    S.Vietnam –––––500,000
    Indonesia–––––1,200,000
    Iraq –––––––––––240,000
    Nigeria –––––––2,000,000
    Eq.Guinea–––––––50,000
    Pakistan ––––––3,010,000
    1985 Uganda ––––900,000
    Phillippines––––––60,000
    Burundi ––––––––210,000
    Myamar ––––––1,700,000
    2000 Angola ––––600,000
    Argentina –––––––20,000
    Ethiopia –––––––––10,000
    Burma –––––––––––5,000
    Afghan. ––––––1,800,000
    Guatemala–––––200,000
    El Salvador––––––60,000
    Syria –––––––––––30,000
    Iran ––––––––––––20,000
    1990 Somalia ––––50,000
    Sri Lanka –––––––30,000
    Bosnia –––––––––225,000
    Yugoslavia ––––––10,000
    + ....................................
    ......................46,854,000

    Maybe the statistical number of murderers has dropped due to more efficient delivery systems, rather than the murdered.

    Do you mean to say that an average of 10 million per decade was the status quo before 1960 [50 years ago]?


    BTW, some little girl is suffering from the Bubontic Plague in Colorado USA:
    http://www.reuters.com/video/2012/0...-plague?videoId=237545613&videoChannel=117760
     
  20. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Again....go back over the past few thousand years...and compare the level of violence and the number dead as a percentage of the population....

    I'll say it again, the numbers of death today are appalling....but they are NOTHING compared to the atrocities of the past.

    There is no need to negate the personal growth of humanity as a whole....we should honor the direction we are going and improve upon it.
     

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