What I believe.....

Discussion in 'Belief and Spirituality' started by wil, Aug 27, 2013.

  1. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    Not just I... but anyone who would like to chime in...

    Not a place to disagree...but a place to state your beliefs and have others ask questions...

    I'd appreciate it if folks refrained from telling others they are wrong, or don't know what they are talking about....refrained from making conjecture...well if you think this this means you believe that....

    got a question....ask it.


    Let us have fun and get to know one another more...no where we are coming from, could assist in discussion on other threads...
     
  2. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    What I believe....

    I believe we are all connected....all one....and that is what Jesus grew to understand...I and the father are one...who is my family....we are all brothers and sisters....u n eye r 1.....

    We often don't see how our actions to others hurt and benefit ourcellves...
     
  3. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    Very close to Whitheadian pan-psychism or daoism. Yes, we are interconnected in ways we just cannot see with our Western minds.
     
  4. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    I picture it like me scratching at some irritant on my left arm with my right hand....the cells in my fingernail are unaware that the skin they are scratching thru, the wound they are making and the blood that is oozing out is their own...the right index finger fingernail has no concept of this, nor are the cells of the arm that is being scratched or the blood that is having to rush to the scene and coagulate to prevent anything else entering or leaving this hole being created...none are aware of the connection...but in this case I am not just the observer, but the creator, be it voluntary or involuntary action (and that to me is a key) I know we are all connected, but each of my parts...they are playing a role and are unaware of the 'big picture'.
     
  5. arthra

    arthra Baha'i

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  6. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    Okay, let me add a little "weird science" to this, a way to interpret very basic things in a large view supporting the belief.

    Time is a very slippery concept (in philosophy and science at least). Relativity pretty well invalidates the concept of some universal or objective time. But try this on for size.

    The activities of each moment propagate out; a good analogy is the single drop of water falling into a still pond or pot of water. The wave propagate out at some velocity in two dimensions. The activities of each moment propagate out in four dimensions. It is the time dimension of what follows these activities which define a local, semi-causal time (semi because quantum mechanics may enter the equation).

    Thus time is being constantly re-invented. The itching, scratching, fingernail, skin, wound, blood are a local chain of events in time. But each event propagates out along its own time-line. It is only the interconnectedness of what wil is describing that is the "observer", starting with the "creator" of the feeling or qualia of itching, which is reaction to still something else. The interconnectedness is in time, along a defined (when looking later) or experienced (when occurring) nexus. And each event or thing or thought along this line really have no concept of the linkage.

    Similarly quantum things that propagate and transform relate to each other along (a vastly complex and probably un-computable) nexus of time. All the way back to creation and all the way into the future to the u-creation (if there is one). On the quantum level it is possible that this complex nexus (call it a universal additional implicate action term a la Bohm). It is this vastly, unknowingly complex function consisting of the interrelationship of all quantum things stretching back to creation that set the experimental background (the meta-environment of the Kosmos) for each voluntary or involuntary action.

    Both of these notions (local semi-causal time and quantum entanglement) are pretty well validated (not proven) and central to a Whiteheadean metaphysics of pan-psychism.

    Ignore the above if you think it is of not value to this thread.

    Merely pointing out that philosophically and physically wil is probably on a valid path (not proven, but likely).
     
  7. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    ya know...I plod along in my own way...and when anyone gets heavy into mysticism, metaphysics, science/quantum physics, philosophy or theology.... I get so lost.

    I can't follow the deep and structured, I can't compete with the eloquent, but I honor them all and somehow we seem to cross often, natural to me, unexplicable to some others, explainable to those with the capacity...

    thanx Radar...like Thomas, and SG, and Paladin, I continue to read all your insights and hope one day to understand a fraction.
     
  8. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    Parents will tell a child they can't have any more toys till they learn to play with the ones they've got.

    We've been given this big blue ball (earth) this vehicle to ride in (our body) and others to play with (two legged, four legged, winged, swimming, crawling) and until we learn to take care of these things....the 3d plane of existence is our school....
     
  9. carrots

    carrots New Member

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    I like this but I believe the 'giver' has a name and personality and a plan for us.:)
     
  10. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Search, be your own guru.

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    "Eko sad, Dwiteeyo nasti"

    What exists is one, there is no second.

    Plan? Contact Heisenberg. He is the disposer of all plans.
     
  11. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    carrots, just realize most of those who post here do not share your viewpoint. Believe all you want in "name", "personality", "plan" are things which we just miss.
     
  12. Gordian Knot

    Gordian Knot Being Deviant IS My Art.

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    If God is all knowing, all powerful, etc., etc., would he be locked into the physics of the universe he created? Or could he act outside the laws where we cannot.

    Just curious. Cause if there is a God, and if he has a plan, he has to be able to work beyond the limits of the physical universe. No?
     
  13. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea An ordinary cup of tea

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    I don't understand the logic at all. Doesn't it depend on the plan, what it hopes to achieve? When it created the limits it must have adapted the limitations for the plan, no? Anything else would have been not so brilliant.

    And generally, if you believe it's a being with a plan, isn't that usually accompanied with miracles (here meaning supernatural intervention, thus breaking the limits)?
     
  14. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Search, be your own guru.

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    So do we mean that all wars, all atrocities, all injustices, all slavery, all murders, all rapes, all pedophilia, all earthquakes, all volcanic eruptions, all tsunami, all typhoons, all floods, and all famines, all diseases, and all other mishaps, all through the history, are according to this being's plan? What a grand plan! Must be for some grand purpose, I suppose? Do we worship a God or Satan (though there is no Satan just like there is no God)? I would hate to be a son or messenger of such a God if he existed.
     
  15. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea An ordinary cup of tea

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    Theist all have different answers to those questions, it is in our very nature to look upon the world and as 'why is this so'. And it is in our very nature to never agree.
     
  16. Gordian Knot

    Gordian Knot Being Deviant IS My Art.

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    ACOT I was referring and responding to Aup's comment that Heisenberg demonstrates no plan is possible. So my remark that if there is a Supreme Being with no limitations, the physics of how the universe works would not limit him. He created the laws that govern how existence works, but doesn't have to abide by those laws, being Supreme and all.

    Miracles would definitely fall under this concept. In that they bend the rules by how things work in the physical universe.
     
  17. Gordian Knot

    Gordian Knot Being Deviant IS My Art.

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    Aup for the record my question about a God and his plan was a rhetorical one. I personally do not believe in Gods. Mortals have become master mental gymnasts in their attempts to explain away all the gazillions of inconsistencies of how an all loving all caring God can exist alongside this world of pain and suffering throughout our history.
     
  18. A Cup Of Tea

    A Cup Of Tea An ordinary cup of tea

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    Totally missed it, my mistake.
     
  19. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    That really is not quite right. Heisenberg and the Copenhagen Interpretation have a much more esoteric meaning. “Everything can happen, except that which is forbidden.” There are other (more commonly held) quantum interpretations which hold that everything does happen (the "hard" multiverse theory).

    In the first a plan could happen in the second, any plan happens.

    What if the plan is just to create new and unique experiences for us and h!rself? We really do not fully comprehend these “physics of the universe.” So we are on shaky grounds when saying something is or is not within the “limits of the physical universe.” The raw probabilities of quantum a la Heisenberg were only discovered 100 years ago and Einstein never did believe in them.

    Well, wars, atrocities, injustices, slavery, murders, rapes, pedophilia are functions of the will of individual mean and women, our free will to do good or bad. Why is g!d responsible for that? Earthquakes, volcanoes, comets, super-novae are functions of the world as created. Could it work as well as it does without them? The answer to one (the role of super-novae in creating all elements heaver than iron) is it would be impossible for life to exist without it.

    Heisenberg does not demonstrate no plan is possible. It may work, or it must work, depending on how one reads Heisenberg (see my first paragraph). It really depends on what you mean by “Supreme” and “Miracles” and “physical universe”, doesn’t it? Supreme may mean a co-existent being (see Rosenzweig or Whitehead) or a co-operative being (see Kazantzakis) or a co-equal being (see the Tirthankaras or the Buddhas).

    For me the existence of a Tirthankara or a Buddha (or a Laozi or Chuangzi or Jesus or BeSHt or Bahá’u’lláh or Moreshi Ueshiba or Ham Sok Han is enough of a miracle. Let alone a new born foal or a butterfly crawling out of a chrysalis.

    And physical universe? This is too limiting, one has physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual experiences… so the universe is not just physical (unless you believe all emotions and thoughts and visions are functions of what we ate for dinner last night). Yes, that does make things simpler, I suppose, but it fails to explain qualia, or great art, or great love, or Gödel’s Incompleteness Theorem, or my experience of g!d.

    So I believe ACOT is thinking in not as quite so confined a mode as either Aup or GK. Who is right, who is wrong? I do not know, nor can I come up with some “Absolute Point” (or even conceive of one) whereby one can judge that. We are just thinking along different paths.
     
  20. Gordian Knot

    Gordian Knot Being Deviant IS My Art.

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    All that stuff from what I ate last night? Hmmmm. You may be onto something there. It would explain a great deal.

    Seriously (for just a minute) though, my response on the physical universe was just in reference to that part of the discussion. Emotional, mental and spiritual experiences, along with physical, are all important in their totality when attempting to LIVE rather than just going from day to day.

    Yes we move along different paths. To my way of thinking that is the only way it can be. For every person (restricting the discussion just to humans for now) there is a path. No one else can walk that path, though we can sometimes share parts of the path with others along the way.

    But the entire path for one is never the same for another. I perceive that as both a gift and a curse. We are locked within our perceptions and the best we can do is try to share with others what our own personal version of the path means.
     

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