Vajradhara
One of Many
just a bit premature, don't you think? seeing how the situation is still ongoing and all of that.....Sacredstar said:
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
Hello Kaspar 
Everyone is responsible for the problems you mentioned thats the whole point of environmental problems, and because Bush has a significantly higher position of power than me I think its only fair to blame him more.
-He's been in office for 4 years. I dont understand how 4 years can give one person more blame than anyone else. Since your only 15 I wouldnt blame you for it.. The hole in the ozone is a lot older than you are.
How do you know that they don't care about their lives? What happened to their free will?
-they dont care about ANYTHING. they dont care about themselves.they dont care about their country. they dont care about God. they dont care about the iraqis. they dont care about the people that died on 9/11. I dont know why this point is so hard to understand.
Feel free. One reason why I am so involved in the Iraq war is because my prime minister dragged the UK into it. Anyway I don't need to justify the history of my country and I don't think you have to justify yours.
-That doesnt make sense. This whole thread you've been tossing accusations that Americans are terrorists or occupationists past and present and that our leader has a personal agenda. My point here is that your worried about the speck in our eye and you have a plank in your own. The UK has been very good at keeping a low profile. Riding our coat-tails so we get the blame for things. But interesting enough they have the same agenda we do.
Hold on a minute. Bit of miscommunicatinon. One when I said I am involved in the Iraq War I meant why I am interested I wsn't trying to be judge jury or executioner. And yes I would like to join the red Cross and help the Iraqi people but errr I'm 15 so I don't really think they'd let me. Afganistan? wasn't that the intention? To kill Bin laden?
-Yes the taliban was harboring bin laden.
-umm considering the reaction we are getting from extremists I dont think its THAT debatable. They are killing their own people without thought. Those kind of people would take control of the country. Not the peaceful people of Islam that have essentially been slaughtered raped and pillaged by their own country's leader and his henchmen.
Peace
We can only hope
Faithful Servant
Everyone is responsible for the problems you mentioned thats the whole point of environmental problems, and because Bush has a significantly higher position of power than me I think its only fair to blame him more.
-He's been in office for 4 years. I dont understand how 4 years can give one person more blame than anyone else. Since your only 15 I wouldnt blame you for it.. The hole in the ozone is a lot older than you are.
How do you know that they don't care about their lives? What happened to their free will?
-they dont care about ANYTHING. they dont care about themselves.they dont care about their country. they dont care about God. they dont care about the iraqis. they dont care about the people that died on 9/11. I dont know why this point is so hard to understand.
Feel free. One reason why I am so involved in the Iraq war is because my prime minister dragged the UK into it. Anyway I don't need to justify the history of my country and I don't think you have to justify yours.
-That doesnt make sense. This whole thread you've been tossing accusations that Americans are terrorists or occupationists past and present and that our leader has a personal agenda. My point here is that your worried about the speck in our eye and you have a plank in your own. The UK has been very good at keeping a low profile. Riding our coat-tails so we get the blame for things. But interesting enough they have the same agenda we do.
Hold on a minute. Bit of miscommunicatinon. One when I said I am involved in the Iraq War I meant why I am interested I wsn't trying to be judge jury or executioner. And yes I would like to join the red Cross and help the Iraqi people but errr I'm 15 so I don't really think they'd let me. Afganistan? wasn't that the intention? To kill Bin laden?
-Yes the taliban was harboring bin laden.
-umm considering the reaction we are getting from extremists I dont think its THAT debatable. They are killing their own people without thought. Those kind of people would take control of the country. Not the peaceful people of Islam that have essentially been slaughtered raped and pillaged by their own country's leader and his henchmen.
Peace
We can only hope
Faithful Servant
mirrorinthefog
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Hello Sacredstar,Sacredstar said:
Yes there are rare...very rare, I would say...instances where people have been able to influence governments, but this is not the rule, in my humble opinion. But...everyone is entitled to her opinion
Peace
Mirrorinthefog.
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
Hello
Well Ive been researching this problem of whose to blame and who uses what resources and I found a lot of information I would like to share.
to date the world population is 6 billion estimated
The USA is population 300 million @ 79.6 ppl per square mile thats 20% of the earths population.
The England population is 57 million (2002) @ 855 ppl per square mile
China 1.2 billion
India 1 billion
-Air pollution intensity in international cities pollution per square mile -
1 Asia as having the highest
2 Canada
3 Europe
4 United States
5 Australia
http://www.demographia.com/db-intlpollu-aveton.htm
-Top consumers of primary energy -
1 UA Emirates 18.95 metric tons of oil per capita
2 Kuwait 9.17 metic tons of oil per capita
3 Singapore 8.80 metric tons of oil per capita
4 USA 7.18 metric tons of oil per capita
-Cars per thousand of people -
1 Italy 539
2 Germany 506
3 Australia 488
4 USA 483
-Top per capita water users -
USA was 8th on that list
-The biggest per capita carbon monoxide emitters-
(fossil fuel burning and cement manufacture)
1 United Arab Emirates 30.9
2 Kuwait 28.8
3 USA 20.5
4 Singapore 19.1
-Nuclear waste from spent fuel in nuclear power plants-
1 Canada with the most
2 France
3 Sweden
4 UK (excluding Ireland)
5 Switzerland
USA is 15 down on THAT list
-World Chemicals Production-
1 European Union 31%
2 USA 28%
3 Japan 15%
4 Rest of Asia 12%
references
http://geography.about.com/cs/worldpopulation/index.htm
http://www.prb.org/
Faithful Servant
Well Ive been researching this problem of whose to blame and who uses what resources and I found a lot of information I would like to share.
to date the world population is 6 billion estimated
The USA is population 300 million @ 79.6 ppl per square mile thats 20% of the earths population.
The England population is 57 million (2002) @ 855 ppl per square mile
China 1.2 billion
India 1 billion
-Air pollution intensity in international cities pollution per square mile -
1 Asia as having the highest
2 Canada
3 Europe
4 United States
5 Australia
http://www.demographia.com/db-intlpollu-aveton.htm
-Top consumers of primary energy -
1 UA Emirates 18.95 metric tons of oil per capita
2 Kuwait 9.17 metic tons of oil per capita
3 Singapore 8.80 metric tons of oil per capita
4 USA 7.18 metric tons of oil per capita
-Cars per thousand of people -
1 Italy 539
2 Germany 506
3 Australia 488
4 USA 483
-Top per capita water users -
USA was 8th on that list
-The biggest per capita carbon monoxide emitters-
(fossil fuel burning and cement manufacture)
1 United Arab Emirates 30.9
2 Kuwait 28.8
3 USA 20.5
4 Singapore 19.1
-Nuclear waste from spent fuel in nuclear power plants-
1 Canada with the most
2 France
3 Sweden
4 UK (excluding Ireland)
5 Switzerland
USA is 15 down on THAT list
-World Chemicals Production-
1 European Union 31%
2 USA 28%
3 Japan 15%
4 Rest of Asia 12%
references
http://geography.about.com/cs/worldpopulation/index.htm
http://www.prb.org/
Faithful Servant
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
Mirror
Nobody is arguing what you've personally been through, and frankly it's none of my business. I didn't inquire about it nor did I solicit such information from you.
-by all means be discourteous... I would have felt better had you been then to read this rude response.
I used my experience to make a point, and, now that I've made it, I see no reason to debate this further, especially with you, since we are on entirely different frequencies on a number of topics including this one. For the sake of decorum, I don't wish to argue those points with you. If you think you know everything you need to know, then fine, I'm happy for you. If you think God is playing chess and using you as a pawn, or whatever metaphor you wish to use, then fine, think that. Respond to any post any way you see fit. I'm not here to dictate what you should think and how you should behave.
-Why did you post then? You wanted your views heard. Do I not deserve the same respect? I was concerned that you were offended. When people have differing opinions and life experience than you do you always disregard them in such a rude manner? I certainly wasnt expecting a disrespectful response on this forum.
I hear enough of this ridiculous bickering every day, it's pointless and laymen arguing about world affairs they have no say in doesn't change a thing. That is all I'm saying. Don't use my words against me as if I were saying these things to one person, as that was not at all what I intended or intend at the moment.
-Why are you here then?
Faithful Servant
Nobody is arguing what you've personally been through, and frankly it's none of my business. I didn't inquire about it nor did I solicit such information from you.
-by all means be discourteous... I would have felt better had you been then to read this rude response.
I used my experience to make a point, and, now that I've made it, I see no reason to debate this further, especially with you, since we are on entirely different frequencies on a number of topics including this one. For the sake of decorum, I don't wish to argue those points with you. If you think you know everything you need to know, then fine, I'm happy for you. If you think God is playing chess and using you as a pawn, or whatever metaphor you wish to use, then fine, think that. Respond to any post any way you see fit. I'm not here to dictate what you should think and how you should behave.
-Why did you post then? You wanted your views heard. Do I not deserve the same respect? I was concerned that you were offended. When people have differing opinions and life experience than you do you always disregard them in such a rude manner? I certainly wasnt expecting a disrespectful response on this forum.
I hear enough of this ridiculous bickering every day, it's pointless and laymen arguing about world affairs they have no say in doesn't change a thing. That is all I'm saying. Don't use my words against me as if I were saying these things to one person, as that was not at all what I intended or intend at the moment.
-Why are you here then?
Faithful Servant
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
Mirror
Point taken. I apologize for targeting you. I too wish that I never posted the first one because the meaning of it was completely lost.
Faithful Servant
Point taken. I apologize for targeting you. I too wish that I never posted the first one because the meaning of it was completely lost.
Faithful Servant
ObeyTheCowGod
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Gosh their is some interesting comment on this thread.
The original article posted seemed to be more concerned with the prospect for some sort of acceptable outcome from the current situation in Iraq and concluded that the USA would not find such an outcome and should cut it and run.
Most people in this thread seem more concerned with the politics in there home countries surrounding the invasion and terrorism, mostly USA and UK it seems. Both very interesting topics I think.
To respond only to the originally posted article. I have to totally agree with it. I think the US is so far out of its depth it is not funny. Nothing they seem to do does any good. I think a classic example of this is the prisoner abuse scandal. Contrast the US leadership at its finest during the days of the Cuban missle crises when they walked along a razor blade and triumphantly delivered the world from a terrible escalation, with the abysmal US leadership today. It is inconscievable to me that the problem of prisoner abuse could not have been forseen and avoided yet the US leadership on the ground in Iraq seems completely unable to deal with the situation it finds itself in. I have no solutions for them either. I think they are in a right pickle. I think no matter what policy the US follows in Iraq it will be disasterous for them one way or another. While I do not agree with the apparent philosophy of the current US administration you would think that having decided the course they wish to pursue they would be able to pursue it successfully. Not so though. When before have we seen a US that has been so inept and incapable and just plain bloody useless at fufulling its stated aims?
To comment on politics in the US, UK, and my own home AUS surrounding the whole terrorism/war in Iraq/lets get Sadam thing is much more dificult. Public oppinion is sharply divided, and not just in a we should have sent troops to the middle east or we shouldn't have debate. One thing is certain though. Here in Australia under the current state of affairs we will do whatever the US asks us to do. It is a sad fact but true. Sad for Australia but at least we have a choice. Perhaps if the US continues to make such a terrible mess of things for a few more years Australians will decide to follow some other path in the world.
The original article posted seemed to be more concerned with the prospect for some sort of acceptable outcome from the current situation in Iraq and concluded that the USA would not find such an outcome and should cut it and run.
Most people in this thread seem more concerned with the politics in there home countries surrounding the invasion and terrorism, mostly USA and UK it seems. Both very interesting topics I think.
To respond only to the originally posted article. I have to totally agree with it. I think the US is so far out of its depth it is not funny. Nothing they seem to do does any good. I think a classic example of this is the prisoner abuse scandal. Contrast the US leadership at its finest during the days of the Cuban missle crises when they walked along a razor blade and triumphantly delivered the world from a terrible escalation, with the abysmal US leadership today. It is inconscievable to me that the problem of prisoner abuse could not have been forseen and avoided yet the US leadership on the ground in Iraq seems completely unable to deal with the situation it finds itself in. I have no solutions for them either. I think they are in a right pickle. I think no matter what policy the US follows in Iraq it will be disasterous for them one way or another. While I do not agree with the apparent philosophy of the current US administration you would think that having decided the course they wish to pursue they would be able to pursue it successfully. Not so though. When before have we seen a US that has been so inept and incapable and just plain bloody useless at fufulling its stated aims?
To comment on politics in the US, UK, and my own home AUS surrounding the whole terrorism/war in Iraq/lets get Sadam thing is much more dificult. Public oppinion is sharply divided, and not just in a we should have sent troops to the middle east or we shouldn't have debate. One thing is certain though. Here in Australia under the current state of affairs we will do whatever the US asks us to do. It is a sad fact but true. Sad for Australia but at least we have a choice. Perhaps if the US continues to make such a terrible mess of things for a few more years Australians will decide to follow some other path in the world.
Vajradhara
One of Many
oh my goodness!ObeyTheCowGod said:
really.. you must read the historical documents regarding this issue and you'll come to view it in a different light.
i don't know what you've seen, but what i've seen appears less severe than many univesities fraternity initiations. i suppose that my view of what "prisoner abuse" actually is has become influenced by what China does to Tibetans, which may be unfair to those prisoners whom are not victims of the Chinese.
Revolution
Civil War
War of 1812
Spanish/American War
Mexican War
world war 1
world war 2
Vietnam
Grenada
Panama
Columbia
Siani
Bosnia
Somalia
Cambodia
et al.
really.. the list just goes on and on and on. in point of fact, you cannot find a time in world history where the United States has ever really achieved it's aims, with the narrow exception of the fall of the Berlin Wall, in my view. all of the military campaings, though victory or loss, did not achieve the ulitmate aims of the United States.
ObeyTheCowGod
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Ok VajradharaYour views are oviously different from mine. I see you have placed in a previous post that you think the situation in Iraq is definitely redemable. You say a good outcome for the situation would be the establishment of a democratic government in Iraq. This is the intention of the US administration I think with the added requirement that that government be friendly to the US. In the past the US has had no preferences for favouring a dictatorship or a democracy in the foriegn governments it supports so long as that government is pro US. I do not see the US succeeding in establishing both a pro US and democratic govenment in Iraq. Given the apparent anti US sentiment in the country that would seem to be an impossible task. I guess the option of installing a pro US dictatorship is still their but this would be a terrible terrible embarresment for the US I believe.
I would love to see the US succeed in Iraq but I really can't see them making much out of their experience there unless they really buck up thier ideas. Coming from a country allied to the US I find it distressing and disturbing that our once great friend the US does not seem to be able to get it right.
You seem to see the prisoner abuse scandal as a very minor hiccup for US plans in Iraq but it is a terrible cock up on their part. You liken the actions taken by US soldiers in Iraq towards prisoners in their custody as similar to fraternaty pranks in US universities. Their have been suspicious deaths of Iraqis in US custody in Iraq. Don't believe me. Google Abu Ghraib, Deaths In Custody. Nothing has been proven and it is all allegations but the Iraqi people should be able to expect justice from the occupying US forces. Are we going to see families of Iraqis who have died in US custody seeking compensation from the US govenment. US can't really afford embarrasments of this sort. Even if you are correct in characterising the activities of soldiers on prison duty in Iraq as mere pranks this is still outrageously embaressing for the US armed forces. Are we to believe that the men and women the US send overseas to represent their country so promently on the world stage are a bunch of drunken teens. I would expect more from a country that prides itself in having the most highly trained and profesional armed forces around.
Check out this link.
http://www.killsometime.com/Video/video.asp?video=Dont-Loot
Is this for real? I can't work it out. It has to be a joke doesn't it?
If this is really how US forces are behaving in Iraq, even if it is only a few soldiers that are acting this way then the US effot in Iraq is doomed.
Is this just some frat prank?
Please tell me that this vid is a joke!!
I don't know. Maybe the US will make things good in Iraq, but my gut feeling is no.
I would love to see the US succeed in Iraq but I really can't see them making much out of their experience there unless they really buck up thier ideas. Coming from a country allied to the US I find it distressing and disturbing that our once great friend the US does not seem to be able to get it right.
You seem to see the prisoner abuse scandal as a very minor hiccup for US plans in Iraq but it is a terrible cock up on their part. You liken the actions taken by US soldiers in Iraq towards prisoners in their custody as similar to fraternaty pranks in US universities. Their have been suspicious deaths of Iraqis in US custody in Iraq. Don't believe me. Google Abu Ghraib, Deaths In Custody. Nothing has been proven and it is all allegations but the Iraqi people should be able to expect justice from the occupying US forces. Are we going to see families of Iraqis who have died in US custody seeking compensation from the US govenment. US can't really afford embarrasments of this sort. Even if you are correct in characterising the activities of soldiers on prison duty in Iraq as mere pranks this is still outrageously embaressing for the US armed forces. Are we to believe that the men and women the US send overseas to represent their country so promently on the world stage are a bunch of drunken teens. I would expect more from a country that prides itself in having the most highly trained and profesional armed forces around.
Check out this link.
http://www.killsometime.com/Video/video.asp?video=Dont-Loot
Is this for real? I can't work it out. It has to be a joke doesn't it?
If this is really how US forces are behaving in Iraq, even if it is only a few soldiers that are acting this way then the US effot in Iraq is doomed.
Is this just some frat prank?
Please tell me that this vid is a joke!!
I don't know. Maybe the US will make things good in Iraq, but my gut feeling is no.
Vajradhara
One of Many
Namaste ObeyTheCowGod,
thank you for the post.
remember... i'm a Buddhist.. and if there is one thing that we Buddhists agree upon it's that all things change.
besides... Israel has the highest trained and most professional army in the world they should, they spend more than anyone on their armed forces.
there ya go
in the end... its not America or anyone else that will make things "good" (which is a term that i'm loath to use) in Iraq or anywhere else. the only people that can make things good for themselves are the actual people. they may require assistance, however, as the old saying goes... you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.
thank you for the post.
as they should be, we are different people with different experiences and so forth.ObeyTheCowGod said:
correct. of course, it's my view that democracy in all its various forms is a worthwhile human instution of government and i would advocate it over all other forms that i'm aware of.
well... it's hard to say exactly what the intention of anyone is, in my view, since intentions are not typically visible. nevertheless, from my point of view, it is irrelevant if Iraq is friendly with the United States or not and that particular aspect of the geopolitical relationship is always influx. you see it in todays society in other nations as well. for instance Australia and Indonesia were quite at odds with each other until the Bali bombings, now... Australia is the largest donor for tsunami relief directly to Indonesia.
remember... i'm a Buddhist.. and if there is one thing that we Buddhists agree upon it's that all things change.
from my vantage point, it's too difficult to say. i often have the impression that the media focuses on the negative aspects of America rather than the positive. eh... media folks are people like the rest of us and have their own agendas.
perhaps... it's a perception issue? what does it mean to "get it right."?
let's be a bit more specific here... the videos of the things that happened at Abu Graib are what i'm referring to. if you are expanding the scope of this to include all other prisoners of war in all other locales, then i really can't say anything since my information is not reliable.
have you formed the conclusion that they will not be able to expect justice? of course, you understand that in the American legal system, one is innocent until proven guilty. the American legal system operates with the a priori assumption that the person is innocent. given the disciplinary actions taken against the other soldiers that have breeched the law, i see no reason to fear a lack of justice.
why can't they afford it? why wouldn't the Iraqi citizens take advantage of the legal system to pursue their claims?
which i did not do. "pranks" is your interpetation of my use of the phrase "college fraternity initiations." people die during these things, it is not a prank by any means.
why? why is this embarrassing for the entire United States Armed Forces? don't you believe that individuals are accountable for their own actions? i sure do. as such, only the individuals that commit a crime are guilty, though i realize that many beings see a guilt by association.
you know... that big, broad brush would be great for painting a house, however, it's a poor tool in a dialog. so... you are going to characterize 300,000 some odd people by the actions of a few? would that be rational?
besides... Israel has the highest trained and most professional army in the world
they should, they spend more than anyone on their armed forces.i can't view it. what does it say?
ok.. the vid is a joke
there ya go fortunately, gut feelings also relate to gastric problems, bowel obstructions and all manner of other things which have little to do with the political sitations we find ourselves in these days.
in the end... its not America or anyone else that will make things "good" (which is a term that i'm loath to use) in Iraq or anywhere else. the only people that can make things good for themselves are the actual people. they may require assistance, however, as the old saying goes... you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.
