Debate: Is Islam a Threat to the West?

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by Amica, Jul 31, 2015.

  1. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2014
    Messages:
    1,179
    Likes Received:
    120
    Eh, living as a Revert Muslim in the US you kinda get used to it. It's sad that when someone brings forth a question and then is told with some level of detail and referencing, that the person cannot even begin accepting it as an honest attempt and further uses instruments of rejection such as "you just lie since you are permitted to do so"
     
  2. Ahanu

    Ahanu Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2007
    Messages:
    1,104
    Likes Received:
    81
    It does appear the spread of Islam over different countries, cultures, and people, along with growing internal conflicts in Islam (such as Ali and Muawiyyah), resulted in a change in interpretation over apostasy (riddah), which the Prophet Muhammad never punished by death. Khaled Abou El Fadl, who teaches Islamic jurisprudence at UCLA, explains it like this: "There is no reliable evidence that the Prophet during his lifetime executed anyone for the crime of apostasy. However, the penalty for apostasy seems to have arisen from a period of time, during the Caliphate of Abu Bakr, when Muslims were engulfed in what was known as the wars of apostasy (hurub al-ridda). Although there was a specific historical context that elicited the emergence of the law of apostasy, the doctrinal support for such a penalty remained flimsy at best." If this is the case the countries you cited are engaged in tahrif, the corruption of meaning.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2016
  3. Namaste Jesus

    Namaste Jesus Praise the Lord and Enjoy the Chai

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2014
    Messages:
    2,805
    Likes Received:
    496
    (withdrawn)
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2016
  4. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Messages:
    19,350
    Likes Received:
    866
    Or maybe a thread are Religious Zealots a threat to religion?
     
    GuruZero likes this.
  5. Senthil

    Senthil Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2010
    Messages:
    524
    Likes Received:
    78
    Who gets to define zealot?
     
  6. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Messages:
    19,350
    Likes Received:
    866
    ok....I was thinking zealot was the wrong word....

    are some religionists a threat to their own religion?
     
  7. Senthil

    Senthil Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2010
    Messages:
    524
    Likes Received:
    78
    haha, oh I know what you mean ... just hinting at the pointing of fingers and inability to see the larger picture ... the 'zealot' is generally the other guy. I could have been jailed and maybe executed back in about 1985 as a 'terrorist'.
     
  8. Namaste Jesus

    Namaste Jesus Praise the Lord and Enjoy the Chai

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2014
    Messages:
    2,805
    Likes Received:
    496
    LOL... a much younger me dancing with Hindu Pandit. Note T-Shirt
    zealot.JPG
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2016
    A Cup Of Tea likes this.
  9. Francis Earl

    Francis Earl Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2016
    Messages:
    93
    Likes Received:
    10
    If you read Quran and Hadith, this is not even a question...

    The goal of Islam is that no one but Muslims exist.

    Fortunately, we have many Muslims who are reading Rumi and Hafez and the like, beautiful.

    Islam itself is a threat to humanity, no matter where you are.
     
    GuruZero likes this.
  10. Francis Earl

    Francis Earl Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2016
    Messages:
    93
    Likes Received:
    10
    I think it is important to note that these "terrorist" groups are using scripture to support their actions.

    That means that even if we eradicate violent Islam for a generation or more, there is still material to bring it back...

    This is a terrible thing. We need to stop being tolerant of it.
     
    GuruZero likes this.
  11. Francis Earl

    Francis Earl Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2016
    Messages:
    93
    Likes Received:
    10
    Terrorist is in quotes because the simple fact of the matter is this IS Islam, this IS what Muhammad taught...

    I love those who are terrible Muslims, that are open to me not being Muslim...

    This is not what Muhammad taught, you aren't following your religion...

    And I thank you for that.

    You are human first, it is good.
     
  12. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2014
    Messages:
    1,179
    Likes Received:
    120
    Not accurate. The goal of Islam is for individuals to have a chance to achieve Jannah (heaven). From the sound of it, you have never done the first sentence.

    Not sure why you feel these two are more beautiful. Maybe if you discuss we can follow.

    Bring forth your proof...
    They incorrectly and blatantly misuse scripture. They do not follow it, in the least. I can see you joined today, Please do me a favor and read through the comments here and the Islam Forum "What's wrong with Islam" I'm sure you have much to learn.

    unfortunately that is true of every view, even Atheistic ones. It is a fallibility of man.

    Be careful what you wish for 1.6B people unified and integrated around the world might not be a force you want to oppress.

    It's not and no he didn't.

    again, please read before continuing the last guy got banned for his inability to do so.
     
  13. Francis Earl

    Francis Earl Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2016
    Messages:
    93
    Likes Received:
    10
    Jannah can only be the next moment after life... but Muslim doctrine creates a hellish psyche.

    Sufi's basically are influenced by Advaita and apply it to the Quran. Without them, it is not possible to find anything beautiful about the Quran, I challenge you to state anything contrary to this statement that isn't itself contradicted by the Quran.


    Read the Quran, it is enough proof of what I say.

    They don't though, the Prophet rapped a women over the blood of her beheaded husband, these terrorists are tame by comparison.

    I think you prove that all views should be questioned, not that a particular view should be defended...


    I do not think for a second that 1.6 billion people are inhumane... I think most of these people would drop Islam in a second if given an alternative... unfortunately, in Muslim states, dropping the religion is punishable by death... lo, most people would rather live.


    I have already given an example of Muhammad's actual actions, I find this ignorant, honestly.

    Look, the simple fact of the matter is before Muhammad became a war monger, the religion was a failure... he had less than 100 followers before they started becoming barbaric. Once he started waging war, he eventually took over the entire Arabian peninsular, but to pretend it was on any valid premise is simply delusional... people in general like being alive, this is the only basis for the spread of Islam... there simply is no other.

    The founder was an idiot, and offers nothing to human consciousness at all... he just scared a lot of people. I would suggest you are too scared to see this.


    I have read the Quran, I have read Hadith, I have read many Muslim sources... I wanted to love Muhammad because of his Sufi's, but the entire religion is simply disgusting... if I am banned for telling the truth then I shouldn't be here... I do not desire to be anywhere that forgives such disgusting behavior...

    What is sad is you probably are fully aware of the atrocities of Muhammad, you just want them ignored.
     
    GuruZero likes this.
  14. Namaste Jesus

    Namaste Jesus Praise the Lord and Enjoy the Chai

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2014
    Messages:
    2,805
    Likes Received:
    496
    Here we go again folks! Oh Steve.....
     
  15. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2014
    Messages:
    1,179
    Likes Received:
    120
    fair enough for your view, but saying it can ONLY be this or that is showing your biased approach.
    it might help to explain when you make bold (and wild) claims such as this. I seriously doubt a Utopia full of gardens and rivers and mansions for people is a "hellish psyche" if I am gathering your claim correctly.
    I've met Sufis, Been to Sufi Masjids, etc. I'm not so sure the Sufiism you are describing is very mainstream. I've never witnessed anyone claiming a direct tie from Hinduism to Islam, although I've heard it argued that Hindu beliefs is simply an old form of misunderstood Islam similar to Judaism or Christianity.
    Bold claim. Billions have found beauty in the Quran. Hundreds of thousands of new readers find it every year. I'm guessing whoever taught you about Islam did a (pardon my expression) piss poor job of it. It has long been presented that even the language used us beautiful, Nouman Ali Khan does a great job of explaining it in many of his talks (language study is his specialty)

    I have read it, I know many who have memorized it. I know many who have read it and changed their outlook completely after reading it. Noone I have ever met that has actually read it has ever claimed such as you have. I've seen countless talkshow preachers try to convince people of things, but I find it's always the same, they manipulate the Aya, neglect the context and surrounding Ayas, and Awkwardly translate a translation to fit their needs. I asked for proof, you simply said the Quran is proof, yet have brought not 1 aya from it. My guess is after this you will go to one of the numerous Christian sites attempting to denounce Islam and pick a few. However you should read back a dozen or so posts before you showed up, and look through the level of detail those have been refuted and how even a simpleton such as myself can systematically destroy their arguments.
     
  16. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2014
    Messages:
    1,179
    Likes Received:
    120
    Lol Steve... you stopped too early. I should have at least given him 1 more chance to explain the rest of it... I literally got cut off mid argument :D
     
  17. StevePame

    StevePame Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2015
    Messages:
    873
    Likes Received:
    163
    His content has been restored and he isn't banned. We'll see if he continues down the same path.
     
  18. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2014
    Messages:
    1,179
    Likes Received:
    120
    assuming you mean raped... as him rapping at a woman seems mean and all, but rap wasn't around for another 1350 some odd years... I would love to see your source. I am pretty sure I know where you got it from, but let's see if you can actually find it anywhere legit. 2 sources that are quite good you can try are Quran.com and Sunnah.com . other than that you will have to give detailed information so as to pinpoint where you found it. I have access to an Islamic Library, so if you really do have something, I'll be sure to look it up.

    Partially correct, C for effort on that one... It proves that the views themselves aren't the fault but rather mankind and our inability to be perfect is often if not always at fault.

    Bold claim there, and what do you base this claim on? Most you say, so what are you thinking 60%, 70%, 80%. I hope you realize a Majority of Muslims live in countries where Apostacy isn't punishable. And to find a state sponsored law you really can only look at 2-3 countries. Unless you can show any proof to such a claim I'll chalk this up to your personal probably non-substantiated claim.

    you did so in this post, hardly a point of contention to already refute. Even that one is likely baseless. Mind you I am a revert, I went through all these claims before I chose this path. I know where most of them come from, so Please if you have better sources, state them. Mind you I don't put a lot of weight on modern authors without referencing actual documentation of events.

    He didn't, with maybe 1 exception every war he was involved in was based defensively.

    ooh tough one to prove also. See the only time he had that low numbers is when he left Mecca into Medina. Medinese were much more willing to speak with him and many joined there. There wasn't a war to gain people.

    most of the Peninsula joined willingly, with a few issues here and there. But there was no major campaigns. Most battles began when an area rejected his prophethood and then attacked him to prove they were correct. Would you like some examples or has this basic knowledge already been taught to you?
    So equality of man, a perfect scripture (linguistically, scientifically (what it describes has never been proven wrong, not that it teaches new ideas about science), etc), a social/political structure that if followed correctly leaves no man/woman/child without food, clothing, or other basic necessities, common manners we still use today... none of these attracted people?

    The founder being? In our view the Founder is ALLAH, as Mouhammed (PBUH) was merely a messenger and slave of Allah. You can argue that since you don't believe in the concept of a God, Mouhammed (PBUH) made this religion himself, but that's hardly offering nothing since it has stood for 1400+ years without being abandoned.

    If this is true great, but given your comments, I have to doubt it. Either that or whoever your teacher was did a craptastic job of explaining it.

    All of it? That's quite a feat, Sahih Buhkari has what 7,200 (some repeated) Hadiths. Sahih Muslim 2,200. And 4 other books that are generally considered semi-reliable. not to mention the Dozens of smaller volumes. You might be one of the utmost authorities to not only read them but remember them well enough to know their strengths to make claims no scholar has ever done before. [sarcasm]

    so, poems, history documents, etc?

    Mouhammed (PBUH) didn't have Sufis. The Sufi movement came much later and in many ways contradicts many of the teachings Mouhammed (PBUH) taught. Their reliance on magic and mysticism kindof defeats the purpose of the Islamic life structure. They are by all means free to believe as they want, and although the major difference exists the Ummah is not completely separated from them.

    Come on the entire religion? surely you are smart enough not to make such baseless claims.
    If you are to be banned, it won't be from you telling the truth, It will be from essentially flame warring. making baseless claims in a direct attack on a particular religion. There are sites where that is acceptable, but we prefer a more scholarly approach here. Claims must be substantiated with references and cites and at least an attempt be made to be civil.

    Wrong again. in the couple years I studied Islam before accepting it, I never found 1 warranted claim of atrocities nor even a single act of questionable rudeness. The closest thing I found was his wife's age, but upon delving into it more, found that not only is her age questioned, it wasn't uncommon anywhere in the world for a pubescent girl to be married. up until the early 1900s a 15 year old girl who was un married in the US would be considered old and undesirable or thought to have been doing "evil" acts.
     
  19. Francis Earl

    Francis Earl Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2016
    Messages:
    93
    Likes Received:
    10
    Are you suggesting the Quran allows heaven to be something other than another world?

    Quran 2:191 is as good a start as any...

    The Indian schools all recognize Advaita to be a huge influence on their notion of Tawhid.

    We end up with stuff like:



    Even though music is haram.
     
  20. Francis Earl

    Francis Earl Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2016
    Messages:
    93
    Likes Received:
    10
    I cannot find the particular hadith, but it centers around Saffiya... I see no reason why Muslims would claim such a thing if it didn't happen, this isn't something I or others are making up... perhaps you should read more hadith yourself?


    It is impossible to be perfect when your ideal is a mass murdering brute.


    I base it on the fact that I'm still alive despite the Quran and Hadith not permitting anyone that isn't a Muslim to live.


    This is stupid, he has offended the locals and then claims their reaction forced him to be a war monger? Again, before he began waging war, there were not 100 followers... his religion was simply a failure on intellectual grounds.


    Fallacy, when he moved his followers became violent. There would be no Islam today if they hadn't started killing everyone that disagreed.


    Where is your basis for this claim of willingness? They didn't like dying...

    Except that the Quran doesn't teach equality at all... it teaches that no unbeliever should live and that a womans sole purpose is to bare children... it is utterly disgusting... further, do we have to bring up basic things like the claim of the Quran that the earth doesn't revolve? It is absurd to pretend it even has any particular scientific insight... it is just a fanatical text.


    The founder is Muhammad... he claims that many have come before, but none of those accept him. He doesn't even accept them wholly, for anyone that doesn't agree with him is simply corrupted. We are expected to simply believe this man, despite proof in Hadith that he went to Jews to know certain things about the law... I wonder why Allah didn't teach him about it?

    I think the very fact that you support it makes YOU disgusting, yes.

    None of my claims are baseless, unfortunately for you I fell in love with the Sufi's and so researching this was very important to me... I WANTED to find something good about Muhammad, but it is impossible.


    I would have to question why an enlightened being is taking so many wives in the first place... why is he so caught in worldly affairs to need sex so much? We have many enlightened beings in Dharmic schools who have never engaged in sex at all... you are essentially saying that because it was the norm we should just accept it, but this is the last messenger, he is supposed to be the final and perfect message from God. I think perhaps he should have been a little less impulsive... maybe it should have taken more than 1400 years for him to be utterly morally inept by common standards.
     
    GuruZero likes this.

Share This Page