Debate: Is Islam a Threat to the West?

[Etu Malku]

Not quite. The Bible has as all the evil tenants that you have described. And at some points in history Christians have been just as vicious as Muslims are today. The problem is not books, it is how willing the faithful are to letting go of views that may have made sense 1000 years ago but have no place in the modern world.

At this particular moment in history Christianity is doing a better job of suppressing the evil tenants in the Bible. At this particular moment in history the Muslims are doing a much poorer job of suppressing the evil tenants in the Koran.

My apologies in advance Joe as I know you will find that offensive. It is an accurate view of the situation though, at least from my prospective.

It's the Abrahamic faiths in general, all of them take their turns advocating evil, but Islam has never let up from its incarnation in the 7th century to this very day.

 

[BigJoeNobody]

Ignorance and herd mentality is strongest in Islam, their bigotry, religious hatred, oppression and suppression being their tools for religious enslavement . . . this is indeed a threat to not only the West but everyone not Islamic.

... to put it so simply, prove it. Bring forth the ayas and/or Sahih Hadiths that promote these things. I have a thread specifically for explaining these, where I give you full opportunity to post whatever perceived issues you think you have found. I can tell you this, enslavement isn't an act Muslims are seeking against other people, at least not those who follow according to Quran or Hadith. Oppression and Suppression are both absolutely restricted in terms of enslavement and dealings with neighbors.

I'll skip commenting on your other post as I feel I have already addressed you enough.

And at some points in history Christians have been just as vicious as SOME Muslims are today.

FIFY

The problem is not books, it is how willing the faithful are to letting go of views that may have made sense 1000 years ago but have no place in the modern world.

I know you already know this but I disagree. I believe the issue is rather that some people are letting go of the tenants possessed in it's texts and supporting documents. Of course the "have no place in the modern world" would need to be addressed one by one for actual analysis and comprehensive explanation, but that doesn't mean that just because it is a perceived issue that it is not in fact an answer to a bigger issue.

At this particular moment in history Christianity is doing a better job of suppressing the evil tenants in the Bible.

in the US, although I feel I must add that we are talking about suppressing the misunderstood tenants, not evil ones.

At this particular moment in history the Muslims are doing a much poorer job of suppressing the evil tenants in the Koran.

There are no "evil tenants". What SOME Muslims are doing a poorer job at are following the tenants laid out in the Quran. Again, going back to the fallibility of man.

My apologies in advance Joe as I know you will find that offensive. It is an accurate view of the situation though, at least from my prospective.

Believe it or not I have learned over the years to handle offensive ignorance (not calling you ignorant, but rather that you don't possess enough knowledge to understand why you are incorrect on this particular subject). It's those that talk in anger and in doing so say blatant lies that I dislike.

 

[Etu Malku]

... to put it so simply, prove it. Bring forth the ayas and/or Sahih Hadiths that promote these things. I have a thread specifically for explaining these, where I give you full opportunity to post whatever perceived issues you think you have found. I can tell you this, enslavement isn't an act Muslims are seeking against other people, at least not those who follow according to Quran or Hadith. Oppression and Suppression are both absolutely restricted in terms of enslavement and dealings with neighbors.

I'll skip commenting on your other post as I feel I have already addressed you enough.

Sure . . .

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out.
Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."
Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".
Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"
Quran (33:50) - "O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those (slaves) whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee"
Quran (4:24) - "And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess."
Quran (4:11) - "The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females"
Quran (2:228) - "and the men are a degree above them [women]"


I'll stop there for now . . .

 

[BigJoeNobody]

Sure . . .

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out.
Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."
Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".
Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"
Quran (33:50) - "O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those (slaves) whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee"
Quran (4:24) - "And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess."
Quran (4:11) - "The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females"
Quran (2:228) - "and the men are a degree above them [women]"


I'll stop there for now . . .

http://interfaith.org/community/threads/17476/

Been there done all these copy and paste exercises. Stay off David Wood's websites when searching they have all been refuted thousands of times as it is clear he can't read a full sentence in English, much less Arabic.

 

[StevePame]

Ignorance and herd mentality is strongest in Islam, their bigotry, religious hatred, oppression and suppression being their tools for religious enslavement . . . this is indeed a threat to not only the West but everyone not Islamic.

Not sure how to classify this statement as interfaith.

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

At this particular moment in history Christianity is doing a better job of suppressing the evil tenants in the Bible. At this particular moment in history the Muslims are doing a much poorer job of suppressing the evil tenants in the Koran.

Is there any way to "prove" either of those statements?

 

[Devils' Advocate]

A fair question. A quick search found tons of sites that justify that statement. However I am not satisfied that the sites I have seen so far are not pushing their own agenda. Let me do some more digging and see if I can come up with a site with statistics that I would consider more trustworthy.

 

[Devils' Advocate]

Been there done all these copy and paste exercises. Stay off David Wood's websites when searching they have all been refuted thousands of times as it is clear he can't read a full sentence in English, much less Arabic.

Joe, are you saying that the statements that Malku posted are not in the Koran?

 

[Devils' Advocate]

It's the Abrahamic faiths in general, all of them take their turns advocating evil, but Islam has never let up from its incarnation in the 7th century to this very day.

Not sure how to classify this statement as interfaith.

I'm sure. It isn't! Malku, this site is for interfaith discussion. We don't pretend there are not problems in religions. At the same time we try to understand a religion as a whole. Nothing done by humanity, divinely inspired or not, is pure good. Nor is anything pure evil.

If your only purpose here is to damn Islam you are on the wrong site. There are plenty of others where your words will be very well accepted. If this is indeed your sole intent, you really need to go to those other sites.

 

[BigJoeNobody]

Joe, are you saying that the statements that Malku posted are not in the Koran?

No, saying they have already been covered. They are mostly out of context and half sentences. One error in doing these exercises is trying to analyze good/bad without taking in the entire view. For instance I cannot prove that men and women's inheritance is equal dollar for dollar. But what I can show is that with the prescribed family unit the share is balanced. It isn't about equality share for share, but rather equality based on responsibility.

Quran (2:228) - "and the men are a degree above them [women]"

This one is a classic example of everything I'm saying. Anyone can read this and tell it is not a full sentence. A non-encompassing translation may not improve the statement much, but the Arabic is much more complex and detailed in its words than English.

Sahih International
Divorced women remain in waiting for three periods, and it is not lawful for them to conceal what Allah has created in their wombs if they believe in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands have more right to take them back in this [period] if they want reconciliation. And due to the wives is similar to what is expected of them, according to what is reasonable. But the men have a degree over them [in responsibility and authority]. And Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise.
Pickthall
Women who are divorced shall wait, keeping themselves apart, three (monthly) courses. And it is not lawful for them that they should conceal that which Allah hath created in their wombs if they are believers in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands would do better to take them back in that case if they desire a reconciliation. And they (women) have rights similar to those (of men) over them in kindness, and men are a degree above them. Allah is Mighty, Wise.
Yusuf Ali
Divorced women shall wait concerning themselves for three monthly periods. Nor is it lawful for them to hide what Allah Hath created in their wombs, if they have faith in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands have the better right to take them back in that period, if they wish for reconciliation. And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree (of advantage) over them. And Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.

Here are 3 translations of the same Aya (notice first the length of Aya difference than that one used in the "bombardment"). All 3 of these are recognized translations. The issue is that they all try to grab the eloquent structure and the meaning together. Now as you can see, this Aya is speaking of divorce. And more specifically after a divorce. A woman must wait 3 months before seeking another marriage. (side note the ayas around this explain the men's responsibility during this time, which include financial and physical support in the absolute. If she needs it done, he is responsible for it). The aya explains that a woman cannot attempt to hide a pregnancy knowingly during this period (again family structure and inheritance issues). During this period both sides are able to attempt reconciliation, and men are ENCOURAGED to do so with a higher degree. However if the man chooses to take her back he is more inclined to do so, but if she is the one who initiated it, and she does not wish for reconciliation, she still maintains her rights to divorce, in other words he can reconcile and she can re-divorce. at 3 divorces it becomes Haram (Sinful, forbidden) for the 2 to reconcile and she must marry someone else, if she so chooses. If that relationship ends in divorce then returning to her original husband is an option. Again this is an issue of translation rather than interpretation.

 

[StevePame]

If your only purpose here is to damn Islam you are on the wrong site.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Won't repeat the message again before letting the IO bouncer take over.

 

[Etu Malku]

http://interfaith.org/community/threads/17476/

Been there done all these copy and paste exercises. Stay off David Wood's websites when searching they have all been refuted thousands of times as it is clear he can't read a full sentence in English, much less Arabic.

But the Quran is the Quran no matter who's website it is on . . .

 

[Etu Malku]

You are aware that this thread is "Debate: Is Islam a Threat to the West?"

 

[BigJoeNobody]

But the Quran is the Quran no matter who's website it is on . . .

Technically the Quran is Arabic... and no, regardless of what weird expectations of honesty from anti-Muslim sites, they do often misrepresent it. Quran.com has several translations. Just because David Wood or the like says "This is the Quran" doesn't mean it is, nor that it is a good translation or representation.

You are aware that this thread is "Debate: Is Islam a Threat to the West?"

yes, that means you stick to debate decorum, bring evidences, and welcome retorts...

 

[Etu Malku]

Technically the Quran is Arabic... and no, regardless of what weird expectations of honesty from anti-Muslim sites, they do often misrepresent it. Quran.com has several translations. Just because David Wood or the like says "This is the Quran" doesn't mean it is, nor that it is a good translation or representation.


yes, that means you stick to debate decorum, bring evidences, and welcome retorts...

Which verse are you contending then?

 

[BigJoeNobody]

Which verse are you contending then?

I'm missing what you are referring to... I've already answered your question. I explained the last one here in detail and showed you a link where they are all answered on a thread here on this forum. Not to mention the thousands of sites out there that explain it in complete detail from both an English and Arabic perspective. The only way they are interpreted as you have insinuated is if one removes half the Aya or completely neglects context.

 

[Etu Malku]

I'm missing what you are referring to... I've already answered your question. I explained the last one here in detail and showed you a link where they are all answered on a thread here on this forum. Not to mention the thousands of sites out there that explain it in complete detail from both an English and Arabic perspective. The only way they are interpreted as you have insinuated is if one removes half the Aya or completely neglects context.

Fine . . .

Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

I guess first tell us if this is an accurate translation of the verse?
If so, then explain how this is not an evil tenet and a threat to the West (if not everyone not Muslim)?

 

[BigJoeNobody]

Fine . . .

Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

I guess first tell us if this is an accurate translation of the verse?
If so, then explain how this is not an evil tenet and a threat to the West (if not everyone not Muslim)?

First yes it seems to be a translation. from Quran.com Sahih International follows-

Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,

http://www.quranicpath.com/finerpoints/cut_hands_feet.html
https://discover-the-truth.com/2014/10/05/quran-533-the-punishment-of-those-who-wage-war/
http://www.islamicstudies.info/tafheem.php?sura=5&verse=33&to=34

3 sites by google "5:33 explained".

These in and of themselves explain the various meanings. One must realize there is a physical aspect of it and a spiritual, therefor multiple conclusions can and will be coming out of each Aya, each being true. However to come to the conclusion such as your source material does, they have forgotten (or more truthfully neglected) that the Quran is an entire book, not just 1 Aya. But for argument sake let's take a look at the literal, without context...

Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger

Here we already have a very specific description. "Those who wage war against Allah" could be easily construed as this Terroristic nonsense uses in their talk of holy war, but that's not what it says is it? It includes those at WAR with Allah's Messenger (PBUH). The Union "and" means both have to be true. Obviously Mouhammed (PBUH) is not alive any longer, so that would be quite difficult to wage war against him. But for argument sake, we will bypass this and apply it to all who wage WAR against Islam (because that's what you are fearful of isn't it, that you will be seen as being at war with Islam?)

and strive upon earth

To strive, means actively try. You are actively putting effort into it.

[to cause] corruption

Without going into too much Quran, this can seem vague. But we can suffice to argue that this refers to spreading false rumors and lies about Allah and his Messenger (PBUH) in this Aya. Things such as declaring "The Quran says to chop everyone's hands and feet off" but knowing otherwise. Causing people who do not know or are weak in knowledge of Quran to believe such. This also covers those who kill followers for the sake of trying to show they have no protection.

is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land.

Here we come to the judgements a Judge may order. In the case of the Aya, the Judge would have been the Prophet (PBUH) or at least someone close to him. Now I realize the drivel out there about his character, but most Hadiths show 1 attribute to Mouhammed's (PBUH) judgements, Mercy. Allah prescribes Mercy and Forgiveness above all. So we see here a series of punishments available. The order they are given is of great significance also. People tend to focus on the last thing most, which is why when someone presents things they normally go from least to most shocking... "The monster was green, large as 10 men, with glowing eyes, claws like razor blades, and breathing Fire!!!" . In the Aya however we go from killed (Very serious), Crucified (still alive, but in extreme pain), hands and feet of opposite sides cut off (still alive pain goes away, reminder remains), exiled from land (Move away? that's it?).

That is for them a disgrace in this world;

Explains that that is the punishment for this world. Men are allowed to issue these judgements of punishment.

and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment

but their punishment in the hereafter is worse, but that is for Allah to decide.

So unless you are at war with Islam (or more accurately Allah and his Messenger (PBUH)) and spreading lies knowingly or killing followers for the sole reason that they are Muslims, you have nothing to fear of these consequences.

Does this suffice to answer your query?

 

[Etu Malku]

First yes it seems to be a translation.

Wouldn't all English be translations?

Explains that that is the punishment for this world. Men are allowed to issue these judgements of punishment.
but their punishment in the hereafter is worse, but that is for Allah to decide.

Punishment? How is Islam judge and jury of the world? Here lies the kernal to the full tree of a problem concerning Islam and any faith based religion (particularly the other three Abrahamic ones).

So unless you are at war with Islam (or more accurately Allah and his Messenger (PBUH)) and spreading lies knowingly or killing followers for the sole reason that they are Muslims, you have nothing to fear of these consequences.

Does one need to be at war with Islam, or is Islam at war with any and everybody that is not Muslim?
Quran (8:38-39) - “Say to those who have disbelieved, if they cease (from disbelief) their past will be forgiven... And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world ]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do.”

Islamic Apostasy doesn't even allow Muslims to convert to another religion without punishment of death.
Quran (4:89) - "They wish that you should disbelieve as they disbelieve, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of God; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as friend or helper."

 

[BigJoeNobody]

Punishment? How is Islam judge and jury of the world? Here lies the kernal to the full tree of a problem concerning Islam and any faith based religion (particularly the other three Abrahamic ones).

well there's a rub for ya isn't it. you do realize Muslims don't hold the world under our hands. We don't force you to live by our standards. Nor did Mouhammed (PBUH) nor the Caliphs, Even the Ottomans at the height of their power was a bastion for individual worshipers rights. Not in any time has a true believer imposed our Shariah on another person. This isn't however the case with Nations, The US has long been known to impose it's laws and outlook all over the world.

Does one need to be at war with Islam, or is Islam at war with any and everybody that is not Muslim?
Quran (8:38-39) - “Say to those who have disbelieved, if they cease (from disbelief) their past will be forgiven... And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world ]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do.”

Islamic Apostasy doesn't even allow Muslims to convert to another religion without punishment of death.
Quran (4:89) - "They wish that you should disbelieve as they disbelieve, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of God; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as friend or helper."

now I figured after the first one, maybe you would look at the link I gave you to the thread where all this has been covered or at least quit arguing using your "religionofpeace" source.


I really don't have time to go into a full analysis as I did 5:33. I will say you aren't taking context into account with either of these. Both deliver a message to Mouhammed (PBUH) going into a war, or dealing with the aftermath. In these particular cases Allah had decided to give his messenger (PBUH) orders to eliminate those at war with him. Presumably if you believe in a God, he would only order this because not doing so and giving these people mercy would only lead to more war and corruption later. Both contain ayas nearby that say if they cease hostilities to let them be.

https://www.quora.com/What-is-meant...-strife-and-religion-should-be-only-for-Allah

here is an example of an explanation... it really is quite simple to find, maybe not as simple as reading another rehashing from the same excrement of a site you insist on using as a reference. Do yourself a favor and learn from other sources. Nouman Ali Khan is a person I give great amounts of respect for. His website is pay only, and is meant for deeper teaching and understanding, worth every penny though. He does also have lots of talks on youtube from his various teaching sermons and forums. I suggest you search them out, I promise everything you are asking about is covered quite clearly.