Peace

[Timotheus]

@bigjonobody the link you posted. 'Scholars say...' 'Tafsirs say...'. How about what the Quran says? And one thing it accurately describes is the state of traditional 'islam', as when it mentions the messenger saying 'these people have abandoned the Quran'. If you relied on the Quran instead of ignoramus scholars and joke book tafsirs the issue would be solved. The Quran clearly said that Muhammad was the last prophet but after him would come a messenger to confirm all the prophets. And it does never put a limit on messengers being sent from God. It also makes a distinction between messengers and prophets and explains what they both are.

 

[Timotheus]

And @wil no harm done. Except to yourself. Peace

 

[Timotheus]

And on a small note. @bigjonobody please do not state 'we believe' or 'our belief' implicating me or anyone else with what you believe

 

[farhan]

The Quran clearly said that Muhammad was the last prophet but after him would come a messenger to confirm all the prophets. And it does never put a limit on messengers being sent from God. It also makes a distinction between messengers and prophets and explains what they both are.

where?

 

[wil]

Just to be clear it's exactly what it says I believe that God revealed the Torah and the injeel and the Quran. The originals the injeel is not four human made and contradictory gospels written in a language that Jesus and his followers most probably did not even speak

You mean english, or hebrrew, or koine, or aramaic? Are you saying there werent 4 authors? The originals?

Unless you wish to be clear...

Nots, I've seen some of the dead Sea scrolls... And the oldest piece of Mathew known to exist....what we know of all the gospels is they were written decades after the crucifixion... By men recording what they remembered hearing from others...

 

[wil]

And @wil no harm done. Except to yourself. Peace

.

Looks like I may have to retract

 

[BigJoeNobody]

The Quran clearly said that Muhammad was the last prophet but after him would come a messenger to confirm all the prophets.

I just asked for you to cite some Ayat regarding such.

And on a small note. @bigjonobody please do not state 'we believe' or 'our belief' implicating me or anyone else with what you believe

I use those phrases for generic beliefs of Islam. Please indicate where I have erred and I will look into and/or retract my statement, mind you I have to have solid proof. Otherwise I stick with the Ummah's general understanding.

 

[Devils' Advocate]

The originals the injeel is not four human made and contradictory gospels written in a language that Jesus and his followers most probably did not even speak

Only Islam accepts the injeel, is that not correct? You seem to be suggesting that the injeel is the original gospels that predate the three major Abrahamic religions. Is that correct? I'm not trying to be difficult here. Truly. Just attempting to get a handle on what it is you are saying.

For example you state that the injeel were written in a language Jesus and his followers did not speak. Okay. If it isn't that language - can you tell me which language it might have been?

 

[wil]

You seem to be suggesting that the injeel is the original gospels that predate the three major Abrahamic religions.

Really? I misses that divination

 

[Devils' Advocate]

Believe me, I'm clueless. The comment I quoted only says what the injeel is not. I'm asking what it IS because I am very confused.

 

[BigJoeNobody]

Only Islam accepts the injeel, is that not correct? You seem to be suggesting that the injeel is the original gospels that predate the three major Abrahamic religions. Is that correct? I'm not trying to be difficult here. Truly. Just attempting to get a handle on what it is you are saying.

For example you state that the injeel were written in a language Jesus and his followers did not speak. Okay. If it isn't that language - can you tell me which language it might have been?

Since he doesn't want me to include him, The rest of us Muslims agree the Injeel is either the original Gospels Jesus (PBUH) spoke when he was teaching, or the original versions of the Gospels written down With a heavier weight of scholars seeming to go toward the prior. These would have been recorded in Syriac, Aramaic, or Kione Greek more than likely due to the region. Some deny however that Jesus (PBUH) could speak Kione Greek.

 

[wil]

Hence the confusion... In Christianity the gospels are mathew, mark, Luke n John..

If the injeel is anything other... We've no clue what it is.

 

[BigJoeNobody]

In Christianity the gospels are mathew, mark, Luke n John..

some scholars say they are in Islam as well, but their original versions, not the retold, copied, added to versions that made it to print.

 

[wil]

some scholars say they are in Islam as well, but their original versions, not the retold, copied, added to versions that made it to print.

They were in print during Mohameds time... We have no others that I am aware of.

 

[Devils' Advocate]

Glad I'm not the only one completely confused.

Joe, you said something very similar to the OP. That the gospels in their original versions are accurate, but not the gospels that made it into the Bible. So which versions are these accurate ones we are talking about? And how can we know they are the real thing if no one ever wrote them down?

 

[BigJoeNobody]

So which versions are these accurate ones we are talking about?

From the Islamic perspective, as I said, it is either the lessons Jesus (PBUH) taught in his sermons or the absolute original forms of the Gospels, as in the ones recorded by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. We (excluding Timo so he can give us his version) believe that before it was printed, the Gospels we have were corrupted and/or changed, whether that change was intentional or not is not our place. The Verbal account that was first taught by the original author of Mark, was most likely different than the oldest texts we have today.

Muslims in general believe that Allah sent the Torah, and the Gospel. And those texts were changed either unintentionally or intentionally over time, These were still valuable, until the Quran came to correct the corrupted partial God's words with a complete one. maybe that is more clear, if I get more technical I feel I might lose you more.

 

[Ahanu]

Interesting discussion here.

 

[Thomas]

Hence the confusion... In Christianity the gospels are mathew, mark, Luke n John..
If the injeel is anything other... We've no clue what it is.

I'm not sure what counts as 'Gospel' outside the NT Canon.

There are stories of Christ in the Moslem Tradition that were rejected by the Christian Tradition as being spurious long before. The Moslem Tradition has quite an evolved story of the relationship between Mary and Joseph (he being an older man of some social standing and she being attached to the Temple at Jerusalem. He was asked to take on Mary when she was with child).

Stories such as the baby Jesus speaking from the womb and turning clay doves into living birds were among the many spurious and sometimes fantasmagorical infancy accounts that sprang up to feed market demand. They had all been dismissed as fictions well before the time of the Prophet.

 

[wil]

Stories such as the baby Jesus speaking from the womb and turning clay doves into living birds were among the many spurious and sometimes fantasmagorical infancy accounts that sprang up to feed market demand. They had all been dismissed as fictions well before the time of the Prophet

my favorite was the one where the townswomen wanted to run mary and Jesus out if town....because Jesus kept pushing boys off the roof and then healing them...straighten out your boy Mary or move on...

My second favorite story is when I was told that the word injeel has been discussed so often here we should all know what it means...

Funny stuff that.

 

[Devils' Advocate]

Well now Thomas there are miracles you do believe happened. Not any more phantasmagorical (Love that word!) than the baby J stuff. So why some and not others?