Peace

Discussion in 'Introductions' started by Timotheus, Nov 15, 2015.

  1. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    Mat 2:32 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people. (KJV)

    This is the Gospel that some scholars call the Injeel, ie what he was actually teaching. Other scholars say it is the canonical Gospels of the Bible.
    did a quick search of the word injeel on the site... I stopped counting after 20 threads, with many having it mentioned several times. Mostly in long posts by an "Abdullah"
    but who wrote them off as fiction? The people who did not see it? A miracle like that isn't meant to be a sign for all time, just as it is easy for you to dismiss it now, much like Moses (PBUH) Parting the red sea, the Ark that Noah (PBUH) built, etc.
     
  2. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    I am glad you said that... It helps greatly with understanding where you are coming from.
     
  3. Timotheus

    Timotheus Member

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    @bigjonobody

    [33:40] Muhammad was not the father of any man among you. He was a messenger of GOD and the final prophet. GOD is fully aware of all things.

    -muhammad is the final prophet, and A messenger.

    [33:7] Recall that we took from the prophets their covenant, including you (O Muhammad), Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus the son of Mary. We took from them a solemn pledge.

    - here we learn that muhammad took the covenant of the prophets

    [3:81] GOD took a covenant from the prophets, saying, "I will give you the scripture and wisdom. Afterwards, a messenger will come to confirm all existing scriptures. You shall believe in him and support him." He said, "Do you agree with this, and pledge to fulfill this covenant?" They said, "We agree." He said, "You have thus borne witness, and I bear witness along with you."

    -here we see that after all the prophets a messenger will come to confirm them...

    hence, we can deduce from all of the above that after muhammad another messenger will come to confirm him and all the prophets..

    also i cant find the verse that says 'o mankind whenever there comes to you messengers from among yourselves reciting to you my revelations then whoever believes in them and reforms, i am forgiving and merciful' or something similar... although ill keep looking..

    also, its obvious that you along with many other so called 'muslims' blindly follow scholars and hadith and sunnah etc. all of which the quran tells us not to
     
  4. Timotheus

    Timotheus Member

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    ahh there we go, my memory was slightly inaccurate which is why i had trouble finding it...

    [7:35] O children of Adam, when messengers come to you from among you, and recite My revelations to you, those who take heed and lead a righteous life, will have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

    this verse proves that after muhammad there can and will be other messengers
     
  5. Timotheus

    Timotheus Member

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    just to clear things up according to the Quran (the only authority on Islam (not scholars, hadith or sunnah or any other hearsay)) the injeel is...

    - a revelation given to Jesus (Yeshua, Isaa), it is commonly translated or interpreted as meaning 'gospel'

    it can be found mentioned in the quran in 3:3, 3:48, 3:65, 5:46, 5:47, 5:66, 5:68, 5:110, 7:157, 9:111, 48:29, 57:27

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    from Project Root List... 'Much of the message of Jesus is implied to have been forgotten by his people, see 5:14.'

    as we can see...

    [5:14] Also from those who said, "We are Christian," we took their covenant. But they disregarded some of the commandments given to them. Consequently, we condemned them to animosity and hatred among themselves, until the Day of Resurrection. GOD will then inform them of everything they had done.

    as to its relevance to the canonical gospels, or non-canonical, i am unsure, although the Quran does imply that at the time of Muhammad the 'injeel' was able to be complied with as we see in...

    [5:47] The people of the Gospel shall rule in accordance with GOD's revelations therein. Those who do not rule in accordance with GOD's revelations are the wicked.

    and in this verse a reference to something in the injeel...

    [48:29]...Their example in the Gospel is like plants that grow taller and stronger, and please the farmers. ...

    from this reference it does seem to refer to content which is within the four-cannonical gospels..

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    so this leads to the following (and other) possible conclusions

    1-the four gospels are translated/derived from an original (Q source, Aramaic Primacy, proto-gospel theories etc.) which is probably (along with possibly option 3) the belief of most 'muslims'
    2-The four gospels are original accounts of the same event (however this conclusion does not solve the 'synoptic problem' of the first three gospels)
    3-the gospels are based upon an oral account/transmission leading back to jesus

    either way there are some obvious contradictions in them, and some variations/additions/subtractions among them, however i believe that much of what they contain are true.
     
  6. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    You and I read the same aya and came to completely different conclusions about messengers to come. I will confer these with someone of better Arabic than myself, but the english translations would lead one to believe these Aya were describing past events up until the Prophet Mouhammed (PBUH), Which would conclude with what most scholars say is likely, that all Messengers are Prophets and not all Prophets are Messengers. In the most common accepted schools, Mouhammed (PBUH) was the confirmer of the religion, and Isaa (PBUH) will come back later to reaffirm. There are Hadiths that support your claim, but rather than Messengers (the Message is complete, there is no need for further messengers), they will be reminders (ie, righteous scholars).

    Of course you can choose to be a Quran only Muslim, and it explains why your views are skewed compared to most Muslims. I disagree with your assessment... and fortunately that is my right as well. I find that disagreeing with the group is usually led by misunderstanding things you think you got right. But that's my opinion.
     
  7. Ahanu

    Ahanu Well-Known Member

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    The Prophet Muhammad was a reminder too.

    "Thou [the Prophet Muhammad] art but a reminder; thou art not a warder over them" (88.21-22).
    Does this mean he was a righteous scholar too?

    Muhammad reaffirmed the previous religions:

    "Naught has been said unto thee save that which has been said unto the messengers before thee" (41.43).​

    So I don't understand the difference between a messenger and reminder, especially when you say "Isaa (PBUH) will come back later to reaffirm."

    You said Isa returns as a reminder, not a messenger. Wouldn't that be making distinctions between God's messengers - something the Koran warns us against doing?

    "Say, 'We believe in God, and in that which was sent down unto us, and in that which was sent down unto Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in what Moses and Jesus were given, and in what the prophets were given from their Lord. We make no distinction among any of them, and unto Him we submit" (2.136; 3.84).

    "But those who believe in God and His messengers and make no distinction between any of them - unto them He will give their rewards. God is Forgiving, Merciful" (4.152).
    Jesus was a messenger:

    "The Messiah, son of Mary, was naught but a messenger - messengers have passed away before him . . ." (4.171; 5.75)​

    But, again, when he returns he is not a messenger?
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2015
  8. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    Isa is a Messenger, his reaffirmation will be that his message is covered in the Quran.
    I make no distinction in that they are all messengers. None more important or less important or more loved or less loved by Allah. They are all prophets, and of the messengers, they are all messengers.
     
  9. Ahanu

    Ahanu Well-Known Member

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    Reaffirm: "to state something as true again, or to state your support for something again." All messengers reaffirmed the message covered in previous scriptures: the Torah is a Reminder (40.54), the Gospel is a Reminder (21.7), and the Quran is a Reminder (16.44). Muslims will continue to ask the same question: "Where?" Where does it say there will be more messengers after Muhammad? They don't see it. And why's that? In my opinion, the message hasn't been fully explained in the Quran, because we find there are interpretations that weren't given (3.7; 7.53; 10.39; 29.43; 75.16-19).
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2015
  10. farhan

    farhan Well-Known Member

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    IMHO he'll come back to finish what he left
    (he has left a lot of unfinished business here, both theological and political)
     
  11. Thomas

    Thomas Administrator Admin

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    The community. Same as with the Quran. It's like someone turning up a hundred years after the Prophet (PBUH) had died, with a book of stories about the Prophet when he was a young boy. Where did this book come from? Why have none of the community seen or heard of it before? How do you know these stories?

    In short, the community was not inclined nor obliged to believe anyone who rocked up and said he'd got a gospel ...
     
  12. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Interesting.... So Mohamed thought Jesus would return in his lifetime? Just like Paul and the apostles....and some denomination somewhere for almost 2000 years...
    Aya?
     
  13. Ahanu

    Ahanu Well-Known Member

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    You guys are talking about the Quran, so an ayah or ayat means verse.
     
  14. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    roughly translated of course, more accurately it means a sign. Of course for most people who do not believe in the Quran, verse will suffice since they do not know what the signs are for. Another translation includes proofs.
     
  15. Ahanu

    Ahanu Well-Known Member

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    OK.

    So I understand you believe Isa will return as a reminder (righteous scholar), remain a messenger, and not perform the duties of a messenger. Could you provide a source, please?
     
  16. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    http://www.missionislam.com/comprel/descentisa.htm

    just a quick article... there are more Hadith to support it, but for now this seems to cover the idea
     
  17. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Hadith.... How do you distinguish the good from the bad?
     
  18. BigJoeNobody

    BigJoeNobody Professional Argument Attractor

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    not good vs bad... Accurate vs Inaccurate... or steps in between. It is largely based on chains of people, larger chains means more people heard it and passed it along to more people. These chains are used to verify that x number of people heard something, and that x number of people heard from one of the initial listeners, sometimes the links intertwine where one person heard it both originally and from other sources. These are largely recorded into collections and the most reliable ones are usually found in books such as Sahih Bukhari, Sahih muslim, etc. Sunnah.com
     

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