"Salvation" and "Enlightenment"

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Thomas said:
It's strong in the patristic tradition, drawing from the Johannine texts, a saying along the lines of 'love thy neighbour, for there is God'.

The two commandments given by Christ are embodied in Christ, or rather Christ is the incarnation of that twofold commandment. Loving God and loving one's neighbour are inseparable, and whoever claims to love God yet does not love his neighbour is deluding himself.
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Merton (again!) has said that if we cannot see Christ in the "stranger" then just maybe we have not found Christ in ourselves.
 
Thomas said:
'Salvation' and 'Enlightenment' are two concepts, easily stated but so difficult to pin down and impossible to define, because they approach the eschaton and thus a mystery.

For me, it's more and more about love. Where love is, there God is ...
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I was reading a book recently about the The Theory of Everything, which spoke of the coming possibility of being able to express such a theory in some sort of algebraic formula on a -T-Shirt. (It was a good book) I put a review on Amazon, ending up with my very own Theory of Everything, Eckhart's "Love has no why". Algebra was never my strong point.
 
CobblersApprentice said:
The Theory of Everything, ... in ...algebraic formula
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346GKC5JP4EiKRZv9
 
The term "Enlightenment" can have this awfully snooty, self-sufficient, self-reliant note. In practice, according to reports, it turns out that the path of enlightenment requires substantial letting-go, relinquishment, relaxation, humility, and surrender, to reach the mental poise of "equanimity", the Middle Way. So, the question is, once having relaxed and surrendered into this equanimity, what causes the arising of enlightenment? I think, this is where Western traditions will answer, "why, it is by Grace, not by Works", as works at this point would be grasping, destroying equanimity.

Esoteric schools, Eastern (Sadhanas in Vajrayana, Shingon, Tantric traditions) and Western (such as the Abramelin working found in Magick) all act out this interplay between works, surrender, and grace.

Another thought: who is seeker, who is sought? If God is putting out the news through prophets and scriptures, then is God not seeking contact, calling out? Isn't God taking the first step? And if the seeker, having read the scriptures and followed the teachings, and approaching God, can still only go part of the way, God hurrying towards them to meet them, as in the parable of the prodigal son, or in Michelangelos mural in the Sistine Chapel of the creation of Adam - doesn't this complete and dissolve the seeker/sought dualism?
 
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Cino said:
The term "Enlightenment" can have this awfully snooty, self-sufficient, self-reliant note. In practice, according to reports, it turns out that the path of enlightenment requires substantial letting-go, relinquishment, relaxation, humility, and surrender, to reach the mental poise of "equanimity", the Middle Way. So, the question is, once having relaxed and surrendered into this equanimity, what causes the arising of enlightenment? I think, this is where Western traditions will answer, "why, it is by Grace, not by Works", as works at this point would be grasping, destroying equanimity.

Esoteric schools, Eastern (Sadhanas in Vajrayana, Shingon, Tantric traditions) and Western (such as the Abramelin working found in Magick) all act out this interplay between works, surrender, and grace.

Another thought: who is seeker, who is sought? If God is putting out the news through prophets and scriptures, then is God not seeking contact, calling out? Isn't God taking the first step? And if the seeker, having read the scriptures and followed the teachings, and approaching God, can still only go part of the way, God hurrying towards them to meet them, as in the parable of the prodigal son, or in Michelangelos mural in the Sistine Chapel of the creation of Adam - doesn't this complete and dissolve the seeker/sought dualism?
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"A clearly enlightened person falls into the well. How is this so?"

Zen koan/proverb
 
Even in the - on the face of it - Theravada tradition ("Buddha's only point the way, each has to walk the path themselves") a Bhikkhu once said that "at the moment of emancipation effort falls away having reached the end of its scope". I have often, on various forums, enquired as to the "scope" of effort.

In Buddhism, particularly Theravada, the answer is in anatta, no-self, "without understanding which the whole edifice of the Dharma is misunderstood" according to a well known Buddhist Dictionary.

There is no-self, yet hey-ho, here we are!
 
CobblersApprentice said:
"A clearly enlightened person falls into the well. How is this so?"

Zen koan/proverb
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Pride comes before the fall, beware the reflection of the moon in the well, "We're All Bozos on this Bus"...

Yeah, koans are a great path to humility and letting go. Exterminate all rational thought! (William Burroughs)
 
Cino said:
Pride comes before the fall, beware the reflection of the moon in the well, "We're All Bozos on this Bus"...

Yeah, koans are a great path to humility and letting go. Exterminate all rational thought! (William Burroughs)
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Why I prefer being an apprentice. Although, as Merton said, "we can never be humble enough."

EDIT:- of course, the "Cobblers" speaks for itself.
 
CobblersApprentice said:
Even in the - on the face of it - Theravada tradition ("Buddha's only point the way, each has to walk the path themselves") a Bhikkhu once said that "at the moment of emancipation effort falls away having reached the end of its scope". I have often, on various forums, enquired as to the "scope" of effort.
Click to expand...

"How much effort does it take to let go?".

In Buddhism, particularly Theravada, the answer is in anatta, no-self, "without understanding which the whole edifice of the Dharma is misunderstood" according to a well known Buddhist Dictionary.

There is no-self, yet hey-ho, here we are!
Click to expand...

Cue Hillel the Elder, "If I am not for myself..."
 
RJM Corbet said:
Perhaps realisation of having fallen into the well IS the enlightenment = I'm stuck in deep and nothing I can do but cry for help = salvation?
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As I see it, your analysis is far too sequential/linear. "Exterminate all rational thought" (as if!)

Me, more like questioning exactly what "perfection", even the "end of suffering (dukkha)" , really means.

But, as Dylan sings, "It's all good"
 
Another "joke" and then I'm on my way......

The little guy who slips while on a treacherous mountain path, a 1000m drop on one side. He grabs hold of a branch a few feet from the top and is hanging there, suspended over the abyss. "Is there anyone up there?" he cries, "Please help me!" A great voice cries out from the heavens, from above the clouds, " Yes, there IS somebody up here. I WILL help you! Just let go of the branch and the Eternal Arms will raise you high". The little guy thinks, looks down, then cries out, "Is there ANYBODY ELSE up there?"
 
Cino said:
The term "Enlightenment" can have this awfully snooty, self-sufficient, self-reliant note. In practice, according to reports, it turns out that the path of enlightenment requires substantial letting-go, relinquishment, relaxation, humility, and surrender, to reach the mental poise of "equanimity", the Middle Way. So, the question is, once having relaxed and surrendered into this equanimity, what causes the arising of enlightenment? I think, this is where Western traditions will answer, "why, it is by Grace, not by Works", as works at this point would be grasping, destroying equanimity.

Esoteric schools, Eastern (Sadhanas in Vajrayana, Shingon, Tantric traditions) and Western (such as the Abramelin working found in Magick) all act out this interplay between works, surrender, and grace.

Another thought: who is seeker, who is sought? If God is putting out the news through prophets and scriptures, then is God not seeking contact, calling out? Isn't God taking the first step? And if the seeker, having read the scriptures and followed the teachings, and approaching God, can still only go part of the way, God hurrying towards them to meet them, as in the parable of the prodigal son, or in Michelangelos mural in the Sistine Chapel of the creation of Adam - doesn't this complete and dissolve the seeker/sought dualism?
Click to expand...
Yes, no matter how I try I can't really get a grip of what enlightenment is, it seems that it is incomparable with my understanding of the world. One thing is for sure, I distrust every word of anyone who claim they are enlightened.
 
Why are those who claim enlightenment so suspicious to you?

Do you trust them less than us ordinary Joe Schmo types?
 
A Cup Of Tea said:
Yes, no matter how I try I can't really get a grip of what enlightenment is, it seems that it is incomparable with my understanding of the world. One thing is for sure, I distrust every word of anyone who claim they are enlightened.
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My understanding invariably encompasses a sense of "mystery". So many who identify as "the enlightened" seem to lack such a sense, of mystery and miracle, that I become "suspicious" and wary. The explicit claim also seems incompatible with selflessness, as I understand it.
 
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