"Salvation" and "Enlightenment"

  • Thread starter CobblersApprentice
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CobblersApprentice said:
My understanding invariably encompasses a sense of "mystery". So many who identify as "the enlightened" seem to lack such a sense, of mystery and miracle, that I become "suspicious" and wary. The explicit claim also seems incompatible with selflessness, as I understand it.
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And yet, the Buddha claimed it, and many disciples also voiced the Lion's Roar (Buddhist poetic way of saying, they proclaimed their enlightenment).

OTOH the first person to hear the Buddha gushing forth about what happened, apparently said, "If only...". And I can understand them well.
 
Cino said:
And yet, the Buddha claimed it, and many disciples also voiced the Lion's Roar (Buddhist poetic way of saying, they proclaimed their enlightenment).

OTOH the first person to hear the Buddha gushing forth about what happened, apparently said, "If only...". And I can understand them well.
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Well, I did say "so many" not "all". The fundamental texts - in Theravada purported to be the actual words and actions of the historical Buddha - I find point towards, for me, a sense of assurance, not "waryness". Again, the Buddha told those who sought refuge in the Dharma NOT to assert that he, the Buddha, was the enlightened one until such time as they shared his "insight" (i.e. Sutta 27 of the Majjhima Nikaya, "The Shorter Discourse on the Simile of the Elephants Footprint")

The Lion's Roar is not ,in my opinion, a "gushing forth".
 
The Lion's Roar:-

What has to be known, that have I known;
What has to be abandoned, that I have abandoned;
What has to be developed, that I have developed.
Therefore, O brahmin, I am a Buddha.

Obviously, a degree of faith and even prior allegiance can come into this. While a Christian might well see this proclamation as pride, vanity or whatever, they will hear Jesus say "Before Abraham was, I Am" as being entirely selfless and demanding their pure respect and adoration.
 
CobblersApprentice said:
Well, I did say "so many" not "all". The fundamental texts - in Theravada purported to be the actual words and actions of the historical Buddha - I find point towards, for me, a sense of assurance, not "waryness". Again, the Buddha told those who sought refuge in the Dharma NOT to assert that he, the Buddha, was the enlightened one until such time as they shared his "insight" (i.e. Sutta 27 of the Majjhima Nikaya, "The Shorter Discourse on the Simile of the Elephants Footprint")

The Lion's Roar is not ,in my opinion, a "gushing forth".
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The Elephsnt's Footprint is a fine simile, agreed.

I still think the dialogue between the freshly enlightened Buddha and Upaka the naked ascetic is one of the rare comical passages in the Pali scriptures. Maybe quoting it will show what I mean by "gushing forth", and I mean no disrespect by that:

Upaka: "Clear, my friend, are your faculties. Pure your complexion, and bright. On whose account have you gone forth? Who is your teacher? In whose Dhamma do you delight?'

"When this was said, I replied to Upaka the Ajivaka in verses:

'All-vanquishing, all-knowing am I, with regard to all things, unadhering. All-abandoning, released in the ending of craving: having fully known on my own, to whom should I point as my teacher? I have no teacher, and one like me can't be found. In the world with its devas, I have no counterpart. For I am an arahant in the world; I, the unexcelled teacher. I, alone, am rightly self-awakened. Cooled am I, unbound. To set rolling the wheel of Dhamma I go to the city of Kasi. In a world become blind, I beat the drum of the Deathless.'

"'From your claims, my friend, you must be an infinite conqueror.'

'Conquerors are those like me who have reached fermentations' end. I've conquered evil qualities, and so, Upaka, I'm a conqueror.'

"When this was said, Upaka said, 'May it be so, my friend,' and — shaking his head, taking a side-road — he left.​

This is good stuff. I believe we all stand a good chance to have met people hot off the griddle with an epiphany, or even been like that at times, causing people to shake their heads and taking a side road.
 
Cino said:
The Elephsnt's Footprint is a fine simile, agreed.

I still think the dialogue between the freshly enlightened Buddha and Upaka the naked ascetic is one of the rare comical passages in the Pali scriptures. Maybe quoting it will show what I mean by "gushing forth", and I mean no disrespect by that:

Upaka: "Clear, my friend, are your faculties. Pure your complexion, and bright. On whose account have you gone forth? Who is your teacher? In whose Dhamma do you delight?'

"When this was said, I replied to Upaka the Ajivaka in verses:

'All-vanquishing, all-knowing am I, with regard to all things, unadhering. All-abandoning, released in the ending of craving: having fully known on my own, to whom should I point as my teacher? I have no teacher, and one like me can't be found. In the world with its devas, I have no counterpart. For I am an arahant in the world; I, the unexcelled teacher. I, alone, am rightly self-awakened. Cooled am I, unbound. To set rolling the wheel of Dhamma I go to the city of Kasi. In a world become blind, I beat the drum of the Deathless.'

"'From your claims, my friend, you must be an infinite conqueror.'

'Conquerors are those like me who have reached fermentations' end. I've conquered evil qualities, and so, Upaka, I'm a conqueror.'

"When this was said, Upaka said, 'May it be so, my friend,' and — shaking his head, taking a side-road — he left.​

This is good stuff. I believe we all stand a good chance to have met people hot off the griddle with an epiphany, or even been like that at times, causing people to shake their heads and taking a side road.
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Well, take what you need and leave the rest (yes, I KNOW that has its dangers) but I assume many a dedicated Bhikkhu has drawn great inspiration from such a passage of scripture and inspired them to track the elephant to its final resting ground. You find it comical......:)
 
Just to add, that I do not wish to be driven into a corner by defending Theravada Buddhism, nor every text in its Canon. While the writings of the Theravada Elder Nyanaponika Thera was where I first heard what I would call the "heartbeat of Buddhism" and while I have in my library virtually all the Tripitaka as hard copies ( and once they did not sit there merely gathering dust ) as I have said, I left Theravada for the Pure Land many moons ago.

I "practice" the Dharma around the kitchen sink, not in a monastery.
 
Cino said:
Monks need a good laugh too, once in a while.

And yes, I find it inspiring, in its humanity. The "stench of enlightenment" coming off of the very Buddha. As I said, good stuff.
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Well, yes, I suppose there is what is called the "stink of zen"
 
CobblersApprentice said:
Just to add, that I do not wish to be driven into a corner by defending Theravada Buddhism, nor every text in its Canon.
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Sorry I caused you this. I like Buddhism, as I like other religions. My reading of the scriptures is my own, and I don't mean disrespect towards them. I often hit the wrong note, and am trying to become better, and not cause defensifeness any more.
 
Just to say, you may well have now spoilt any reading I might do of one of my favorite Theravada texts, the Sutta Nipata (available at all good bookshops) I'm very easily led astray, and might well find myself laughing.........
 
The Sutta Nipata is interesting! The Rhinoceros Horn Sutta, one of the oldest attested texts! The Atthaka Vagga, like some proto-Zen-Koan collection. The Parayana Vagga, all those poetic passages. The Jewel Sutta. The Discourse on Loveing Kindness. The Protection Sutta. One of my favorite collections as well!
 
Cino said:
The Sutta Nipata is interesting! The Rhinoceros Horn Sutta, one of the oldest attested texts! The Atthaka Vagga, like some proto-Zen-Koan collection. The Parayana Vagga, all those poetic passages. The Jewel Sutta. The Discourse on Loveing Kindness. The Protection Sutta. One of my favorite collections as well!
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Good to hear! The Commentary on the very first sutta, The Snake, by Nyanaponika Thera was my first introduction to the text. Though leaving Theravada behind, I still dip into some of its great Suttas. I recently read through the whole text as translated by H. Saddatissa, and also bought the new Bhikkhu Bodhi translation, which contains about 1000 pages of ancient commentary (too much for me I'm afraid, though I did read Mr Bodhi's introduction where he was at pains to divorce the text from any perceived Mahayana leanings. However I do find what I would call the seeds of Mahayana and even outright zen in it. I was quite pleased to think myself somewhat as a heretic! Unfortunately Amida was not mentioned)
 
A Cup Of Tea said:
I can't really get a grip of what enlightenment is
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As the professor Bruce Lee advised: "There's always some one whose kung fu is better than yours"

So for every smart hip educated dude with good karma there is ---there's another who's better.

What if my enlightenment is just common knowledge ... I presumed it was sublime it was just an upgrade from the lower grades.
 
A Cup Of Tea said:
what enlightenment is
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Enlightenment imo is like a jet fighter pilot that ditched his plane in the ocean and is afloat on a tiny rubber raft awaiting rescue.
The pilot is Enlightened awaiting precisely his salvation ---he even knows his coordinates.
 
Thomas said:
'Salvation' and 'Enlightenment' are two concepts, easily stated but so difficult to pin down and impossible to define, because they approach the eschaton and thus a mystery.

For me, it's more and more about love. Where love is, there God is ...
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For love is a product of interpersonal reciprocal exchanges, it is there with all living kinds.

The Supreme Personality of Lovehead is the Original Person.
 
Cino said:
Why are those who claim enlightenment so suspicious to you?

Do you trust them less than us ordinary Joe Schmo types?
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CobblersApprentice said:
My understanding invariably encompasses a sense of "mystery". So many who identify as "the enlightened" seem to lack such a sense, of mystery and miracle, that I become "suspicious" and wary. The explicit claim also seems incompatible with selflessness, as I understand it.
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What he said!
 
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