"Salvation" and "Enlightenment"

[Bhaktajan II]

Some might wonder if the Buddha"s message would appeal to a masochist

Well the Buddha didn't write anything down. His only known declaration inwrit were the 4 Nobel truths.

"Life is suffering" is a warning for the wise.

Murphy's Law + laws of entropy + old age & death = House always wins...the odds.

It's when a masochist is past the dual partners of Happiness & distress that equanimity is experienced.

The closest we can come to transcendent Bliss is the absence of Anxieties. Real transcendent Bliss is outside the material construct.

 

[Bhaktajan II]

If a Bodhisattva had amnesia ---that be would dukk'd-up!

The Bodhisattva concept is NOT original to Buddha nor the first schools of organised Buddhism ---[as I remember it].

A Bodhisattva referred to the aspirant that achieved santori and then died! ---but willfully [pre-prepared?] stayed in samsara, and take another birth and revive his past santori-mind and "pass on the Dharma" to those not yet on the path.

But if a Bodhisattva had amnesia, he'd forget to "Carry the Dharma"
---and thus again be swept away with the schools of fish in the current.
That'd be sad.

 

[wil]

The closest we can come to transcendent Bliss is the absence of Anxieties. Real transcendent Bliss is outsidethe material construct.

describes my experience of what I have referred to as bliss. It often occurs in moments of physical or mental stress, yet during the "bliss" state all pain, anxiety, worries which should affect me are gone, and the challenge/duty at hand is performed with ease and concerns actually convert to seemingly innocuous mountains out of molehills.

 

[Cino]

So what about Salvation?

We've explored Enlightenment, but what is Salvation?

 

[Cino]

We cannot discover the mysteries of the Magnificently Beautiful woman by our mundane endeavors;
they are only revealed, by Her grace, to the proper paramours. These mysteries are
gradually disclosed to the various grades of paramours in proportion to the gradual
development of their service attitude, said she.

Erotic symbolism wonderful! Divinity teasing and maybe flashing the servant a look... all those pretty boyish and girlish Greek statues come to mind... There is one Baha'i tablet about the Heavenly Maiden dropping her veils, very explicitly - and then anticlimactically proffering kebab and wine. Maybe I'm missing some references in that one, of course.

So what kind of service will foster this attitude?

 

[CobblersApprentice]

"Life is suffering" is a warning for the wise.

It's when a masochist is past the dual partners of Happiness & distress that equanimity is experienced.

More a joke than true wonder, but yes.

Maybe the woman would just need to display another range of charms.

 

[CobblersApprentice]

So what about Salvation?

We've explored Enlightenment, but what is Salvation?

Words can be important, impose precision, but we DO enter the treacherous sea of language. Enlightenment/salvation.

Between Christianity and zen (Buddhism) lies eschatology. Beyond the simplicity of the present moment ("when hungry eat, when tired sleep," or "chop wood, carry water") Christianity seeks to add a further realm beyond all comprehension, when there will be a "restoration of all things in Christ". I assume this would be the final "salvation" following the enlightenment in this world. For me, any anticipation of something more inevitably corrupts the present moment. (This, as I see it, does not deny the infinite potential of Reality-as-is)

For the moment, there is the law, to be transferred from "tablets of stone" onto the human flesh of the heart. Aka "enlightenment". Then as each moment unfolds, perhaps the lonely are visited, the thirsty are given a drink, food is shared with the hungry. Aka "salvation" . The eschatology of the present moment.

Anything more, as I see it, and we seek to be "enriched", and zen enriches no one.

 

[CobblersApprentice]

So what kind of service will foster this attitude?

If you can pull yourself away from the erotic symbolism for a moment.......

I cannot really see it as "service". For me, "service" implies some sort of transaction, that the offer (of grace?) is dependent upon "works" rather than Faith. The Pure Land way (if it can be called a "way" at all) is simply to recognise we are foolish beings, incapable of truly determining right and wrong, recognising our very own faults. This, then trusting that they are met with compassion, that we are "grasped, never to be abandoned". As Shinran said, comparing our "faults" to ice (a rather strange comparison to me), "the more the ice, the greater the waters of enlightenment".

The statue of Amida Looking Back is relevant. With her hands in the teaching posture, calling all to come, she nevertheless looks back, her first concern those who are not going to "make it", who do not, cannot, come, for whatever reason. Is this just sentimentality? Not if/when we "become as she is".

EDIT:- possibly it might be said that a "transaction" is still involved. I can only look back at my own life, and see no such thing, and I anticipate no such thing. "Becoming as she is" is enveloped in mystery and incomprehension.

 

[CobblersApprentice]

I think the Jungian reading would fit nicely with this discussion.

There was a little something on the edge of the dustbin of my mind related to bringing the thoughts and ideas of Jung into the discussion, of Persons or anything else.

It just surfaced......of some words of James Joyce, who once said:- "Mystery of the unconscious? Bah! What about the mystery of consciousness?"

Amid all the ids, egos, super-egos, then onto animas, archtypes, shadows, etc etc, the words of Joyce are for me a refreshing blast of air.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Words can be important, impose precision, but we DO enter the treacherous sea of language. Enlightenment/salvation.

Between Christianity and zen (Buddhism) lies eschatology. Beyond the simplicity of the present moment ("when hungry eat, when tired sleep," or "chop wood, carry water") Christianity seeks to add a further realm beyond all comprehension, when there will be a "restoration of all things in Christ". I assume this would be the final "salvation" following the enlightenment in this world..

Christianity is part of "a bigger picture" i.e. the history of G-d's guidance for mankind
Why do you say that it is "beyond comprehension"?

 

[wil]

Christianity is part of "a bigger picture" i.e. the history of G-d's guidance for mankind
Why do you say that it is "beyond comprehension"?

Wouldn't that be the contention of all religions?

 

[wil]

So what about Salvation?

We've explored Enlightenment, but what is Salvation?

Seems to me two things are required, the existence and belief in a hereafter which is desired to be attained and a knowledge that whatever you have done or are doing now is not enough for the ticket.

 

[Cino]

If you can pull yourself away from the erotic symbolism for a moment.......

I cannot really see it as "service". For me, "service" implies some sort of transaction, that the offer (of grace?) is dependent upon "works" rather than Faith.

I assume @Bhaktajan II was alluding to some form of bhakti/karma yoga. I was interested in the specifics.

My understanding of the concept of "Lust of Results" (from Western Magick) fits in here, or of "selfless service".

The Pure Land way (if it can be called a "way" at all) is simply to recognise we are foolish beings, incapable of truly determining right and wrong, recognising our very own faults. This, then trusting that they are met with compassion, that we are "grasped, never to be abandoned". As Shinran said, comparing our "faults" to ice (a rather strange comparison to me), "the more the ice, the greater the waters of enlightenment".

A straightforward psychological interpretation would be "don't go into denial about your undesirable qualities, own them, work with them".

The ice metaphor makes sense to me. The clarity of enlightenment would also reveal all the "bad" qualities with said clarity. Another way of putting, "When the postman knows you're moving, he delivers all your mail". Chop wood, carry water - the training in not being a dick never ends.

The statue of Amida Looking Back is relevant. With her hands in the teaching posture, calling all to come, she nevertheless looks back, her first concern those who are not going to "make it", who do not, cannot, come, for whatever reason. Is this just sentimentality? Not if/when we "become as she is".

EDIT:- possibly it might be said that a "transaction" is still involved. I can only look back at my own life, and see no such thing, and I anticipate no such thing. "Becoming as she is" is enveloped in mystery and incomprehension.

All those years of interest in Buddhism, and I still thought of Amida as a guy...

 

[CobblersApprentice]

Christianity is part of "a bigger picture" i.e. the history of G-d's guidance for mankind
Why do you say that it is "beyond comprehension"?

Possibly I was unclear. In the context of my post, of eschatology, I was referring to what Christianity, at least in its Catholic orthodox form, refers to as The Last Things, or perhaps in this case, the Final Thing. I will leave the description to Thomas Merton, the Trappist monk, who I assume knows what he is talking about (unlike myself sometimes):-

.....the new creation which is the true Kingdom of God is to be the work of God in and through man. It is to be the great, mysterious, theandric work of the Mystical Christ, the New Adam, in whom all men as "one Person" or one "Son of God" will transfigure the cosmos and offer it resplendent to the Father. Here, in this transfiguration, will take place the apocalyptic marriage between God and His creation, the final and perfect consummation of which no mortal mysticism is able to dream and which is barely foreshadowed in the symbols and images of the last pages of the Apocalypse. "

As I said, "beyond comprehension".

Again, as I have indicated, beyond "chop wood, carry water", Buddhism (or at least zen) does not go. And I am quite happy with an axe and a water bucket.

 

[CobblersApprentice]

All those years of interest in Buddhism, and I still thought of Amida as a guy...

As I posted somewhere* about the Japanese word "Oya-sama", not gender specific. "She" is my personal preference - hopefully, for me, nothing to do with your own erotic tendencies.

*Post 91 on the Faith and Belief thread.

 

[muhammad_isa]

.. I will leave the description to Thomas Merton, the Trappist monk, who I assume knows what he is talking about (unlike myself sometimes):-

.....the new creation which is the true Kingdom of God is to be the work of God in and through man. It is to be the great, mysterious, theandric work of the Mystical Christ, the New Adam, in whom all men as "one Person" or one "Son of God" will transfigure the cosmos and offer it resplendent to the Father. Here, in this transfiguration, will take place the apocalyptic marriage between God and His creation, the final and perfect consummation of which no mortal mysticism is able to dream and which is barely foreshadowed in the symbols and images of the last pages of the Apocalypse. "

As I said, "beyond comprehension"..

..so you are referring to the hereafter in that it is "beyond comprehension" ..
Actually, it doesn't matter that much whether one refers to a life after death, or next year or next week.
It boils down to the same thing .. later on

.
Again, as I have indicated, beyond "chop wood, carry water", Buddhism (or at least zen) does not go. And I am quite happy with an axe and a water bucket.

So next week or next year doesn't concern you?

 

[CobblersApprentice]

..so you are referring to the hereafter in that it is "beyond comprehension" ..
Actually, it doesn't matter that much whether one refers to a life after death, or next year or next week.
It boils down to the same thing .. later on



So next week or next year doesn't concern you?

Correct, but lack of " concern" need not imply not effecting next week or next year. I have sought to speak of the way of "non-calculation". I think a number of times I have tried to explain how, in my own world of Faith, any anticipations of the future corrupts. I have sought many times to explicate - at least as I understand it - the way zen "enriches no one".

"Whether I am heading for the Pure Land
Or heading for Hell
All is in Amida's hands"

Namu Amida Butsu.

 

[Bhaktajan II]

Erotic symbolism wonderful! Divinity teasing and maybe flashing the servant a look... all those pretty boyish and girlish Greek statues come to mind... There is one Baha'i tablet about the Heavenly Maiden dropping her veils, very explicitly - and then anticlimactically proffering kebab and wine. Maybe I'm missing some references in that one, of course.

So what kind of service will foster this attitude?

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
This began:
I said [quoting Bhakti-vedanta Swami's commentary]:
We cannot discover the mysteries of the Lord by our mundane endeavors;
they are only revealed, by His grace, to the proper devotees. These mysteries are
gradually disclosed to the various grades of devotees in proportion to the gradual
development of their service attitude.

Cino said:
Interesting. Can you explain this attitude some more?

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::


My comparison to the beautiful Lady was due to the exclusivity of her discretion.
Similarly god favors his devotees. The rest of life forms are free to roam.
Just as a lusty man dreams of the lady ---he may not be eligible of her attention.
We the seeker is eligible then all is revealed.
Others, aren't even thinking about achieving her...but instead some sort of other engagement occupies their time.

The attitude is "Love with all your mind, body & heart" is an absolute thing. Yes it is compared fleeting lusts.

 

[Bhaktajan II]

More a joke than true wonder, but yes.

Maybe the woman would just need to display another range of charms.

Godhead is the Supreme Personality wellspring of charmhood.

Some women are known to call out to God, Oh God, oh God as a indirect reference to Godhead munificence.

 

[Bhaktajan II]

I assume @Bhaktajan II was alluding to some form of bhakti/karma yoga. I was interested in the specifics.

Yes. But No.

I simply meant that one seeks something ---and in the case of God's Personal visage--- it is gained by exclusive disclosure.

Next time some one gives you a tour of their home, ask: "Hey can I lay down on your bed"? If near a Resturant kitchen door ask, "Hey can I taste what you cooking with this spoon"?

Funny, society prepares visitors to at least crap in their crap room bowl. Indoor plumbing is such blessing!