Keep the sabbath holy

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by wil, Sep 4, 2019.

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  1. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    Oh, I get what you mean. I agree in principle. Emmanuel is God With Us -- not us with God in the afterlife (although that too).
    So where is the issue?
     
  2. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    If the problem is with American televangelist style religion, many here agree with you, imo
     
  3. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Member

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    Billy Graham type evangelist, who teach you are saved, whether you "endure to the end" (Matthew 24), or not, is based on the false prophets gospel of the cross/grace, and are a big part of the problem. That they are marked by resting on the day of the sun, rather on the Sabbath, will probably come quickly to bite them. The big bite will come on Jacob/Israel as well (Jeremiah 30:11).
     
  4. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    I get it. As I said, most here probably agree.
     
  5. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    I don't blame Paul for it. Perhaps he has been abused by literalists. Anyway, this evangelical prosperity gospel type of Christianity so prevalent in America, and which I believe is driving so many people away from Christ's real message, doesn't at all represent for many what Christianity actually is in the rest of the world.

    People think the Vatican is all about golden thrones and jewels, but the Catholic church is the greatest contributor to charity, and sending missionaries to dangerous places, with hospitals and schools and so on.

    That's where the money in the collection plate really goes. It isn't going to private jets and Armani suits for television appearances. The Catholic church fights oppression all over the world. Which is not to say it doesn't have its own faults.

    We can discuss this in a sensible way and I can provide facts and figures.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2021
  6. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Member

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    Ezekiel 37:28 explains where "My sanctuary" will be during the millennium, and that is in the midst of the "two kingdoms", Judah and and the house of Israel, and "Joseph...and all the house of Israel" (Ezekiel 37:16). Joseph represents the lost 10 northern tribes which have been "scattered among the nations" (Ezekiel 36), who will be "gathered", and not for their deeds, but for "My holy name" (Ezekiel 36:21). As for who is with us, that would refer to the Holy Spirit, for Yeshua is in heaven. It is the anointing by the Holy Spirit which gives life to God's children. When you die, you don't go into an afterlife, you go into the grave. If you have the mark of the beast, you will remain in the grave for an additional 1000 years at the start of the millennium (Revelation 20:4).
     
  7. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    So what part of man potentially survives death? Is there a soul that can survive death, under the right circumstances?
     
  8. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Member

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    The size of the land that the Catholic church owns, is in the realm of the size of Alberta Canada. If you read the description of the "women"/"Babylon the Great" (Revelation 17:4), it pretty much parallels the image of the Catholic church. While the Catholic church is not as rich as the queen of England, or probably the Mormon church, which enforces their 10% share quite vigorously, they are near the top wealth holders. As Pope Francis is supposedly representing the "rest of the world", what you have is a rich socialist who knows little about anything, and is without spiritual power of any kind. He tried casting out demons and apparently failed, unless you consider maybe when you cast out a demon, that the demon must go somewhere, and might have found sanctuary in the pope. And Yeshua's message was the kingdom of heaven, which is not the kingdom of the Vatican, regardless what the pope might feel. As the actual kingdom of God is supposed to set up shop at King David's citadel, the pope even tried to take possession of that hill.
     
  9. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens Admin

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    I'm not overly religious. Dangerously unreligious perhaps.

    But it's late here and I'm tired. So I'll look up the figures and stuff over how much worldly good the Catholic church does on the ground in feeding and medicine etc, in the poorest and most deprived and most dangerous and difficult places. We're not what people think. But I'm going to do it tomorrow, ok?

    Happy New Year
     
  10. RabbiO

    RabbiO הרב יונה בן זכריה

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    No, I did not. I just happen to think if one wants to back up a contention with factual information then those “facts” need to be just that..... facts. The information needs to be accurate.
     
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  11. Miken

    Miken Active Member

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    Since Mathew 19:16 refers explicitly to eternal life, your understanding of Matthew 19:17 as not referring to eternal life is clearly wrong.

    Matthew 19:16-17
    And behold, a man came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?” And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”


    Paul was of the opinion that Jesus would return in his lifetime. That is, some of his readers would still be alive to see that event, although some others have already died since Jesus left and yet others may still die before then. But in the end, it does not matter if there is no one left alive of Paul’s readers. The faithful dead will still be raised imperishable. Nowhere does Paul say anything about never dying in the mortal sense.

    1 Corinthians 15:50-52
    I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

    In Paul, the unrighteous do not seem to be resurrected at all. Which sheds light on the righteous receiving life, the alternative being permanent death with no resurrection. Other parts of the NT have varying takes on exactly what will happen, just as Jewish opinion on the subject varied.

    If Julius Caesar, in the 1st century BCE, was the fifth head of the beast, how does Constantine in the 4th century CE get to be the seventh head?
     
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  12. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Member

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    Genesis 2:7 defines the "soul" as a combination of the "dust from the ground" and the "breath of life". When you die, the breath of life returns to God, and your body returns to the dust from which it came. There is no "Mary" walking around in heaven, despite whatever the pope wishes. You remain in the ground until the age of the millennium if you are without the mark of the beast, at which time your are resurrected, or at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11).
     
  13. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Member

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    Matthew 19:17
    New American Standard Bible

    17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”

    At the "great white throne" judgment, all the dead are resurrected and judged. Those not found in the book of life find themselves perishing in the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:11-15)

    Revelation 20:11-15
    New American Standard Bible

    Judgment at the Throne of God
    11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and they were judged, each one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

    Miken wrote: If Julius Caesar, in the 1st century BCE, was the fifth head of the beast, how does Constantine in the 4th century CE get to be the seventh head?

    Julius Caesar was part of the 4th beast of Daniel 7:19, the "another beast" who uprooted three, in as Caesar uprooted the Triumvirate, which included Pompey who destroyed Jerusalem. The 4 heads of the beast were Babylonia, Persia, Macedonia, and Rome (put into the Jewish timeline by the Triumvirate destroying Jerusalem). All original 4 heads subdued Jerusalem. Caesar was the 5th head of Revelation 17 who was the "another beast" (Daniel 7:20), uttering great boasts who was part of the 10 horns of Rome, who were the full time emperors between the sacking of Jerusalem between that done by Pompey and Titus. The "another king will arise after them" (10 horns), would be Constantine, who "intend to change law and times" (Daniel 24-25), and who also subdued 3 kings (Daniel 7:24) Constantine held the rank of Augustus Caesar, and by his power as Pontifex Maximus, passed onto him thru Julius Caesar, he endeavored to "make alterations in times and in law" (Daniel 7:25). The Augustus Caesars following Caesar, acting as Augustus Caesars thru to Titus destroying Jerusalem, are considered the 6th head of the beast of Revelation 17. We are now in the era of the 8th head of the beast (Revelation 17). The 8th head, "one who was" (Revelation 17), will also try and destroy Jerusalem. It won't go well for the 8th head and his followers. It won't go well for those with the mark of the beast (Revelation 14:10).
     
  14. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Search, be your own guru.

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    One day before or one day later to escape the copy-right laws. 'No we do not do it on Saturday'. Saturday is not holy! :D
    Hindus I am sure will have a different system. So, it is Monday for Shiva, Tuesday and Saturday for Hanuman, Thurseday for Vishnu or Lakshmi. For Sun - all days, every sunrise, Surya Namaskar (Salutation to the Sun God), along with the mantras.

     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2021
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  15. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Search, be your own guru.

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    Hysteria at the success of science, as the article says. You too are afraid of science because it works against superstitions.

    "Collective hysteria is what the scientific organisation feared more than anything else and it is now worried that its highly complex experiments, designed solely for the purpose of studying the basic constituents of matter in an attempt to discover the secret behind the physical laws that govern the Universe, may now be stopped unconditionally."

    Could be. The economy is down and CERN research is costly. It consumes a lot of energy. There could be a slow-down.
     
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  16. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Search, be your own guru.

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    I agree and I am sorry. I did not notice that. I do not think Christians demand is unfair.
     
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  17. Miken

    Miken Active Member

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    And predictably you are ignoring Matthew 19:16 which disproves your claim and simply repeating your claim in bold large font letters.

    Matthew 19 NASB
    16 And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do so that I may obtain eternal life?” 17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” 18 Then he said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not give false testimony; 19 Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

    The man asked what he should do to get eternal life. Jesus replies with what the man must do it he wants to enter life, which is what the man wants. That is, ‘eternal life’ and ‘life’ in the next sentence have the same meaning. When one considers that Jesus continues to reply with what the man should do, which is what he asked, it is very clear that Jesus really is answering the man’s question about obtaining eternal life. If not, then Jesus is misleading the man by not answering the question while giving every indication that he is. That is called lying. Was Jesus lying here?

    I see no indication anywhere that Kingdom of God and Kingdom of Heaven mean two different things. Matthew says clearly that they are the same in the very same chapter under discussion.

    Matthew 19:23-24
    And Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly, I say to you, only with difficulty will a rich person enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.”


    Paul never mentions any judgment or any resurrection other than the faithful. As I said earlier, and you ignored, different parts of the NT have different opinions. Luke 16 tells the story of Lazarus and the rich man who die and are immediately rewarded or punished for the lives they lived. (Lazarus is not in heaven but at Abraham’s side, a euphemism for a paradisical place where the righteous await the resurrection.) Luke’s imagery is straight out of 1 Enoch, an early voice presenting the ideas of resurrection and judgment.

    Julius Caesar did not uproot three. He was himself a part of the First Triumvirate so he only uprooted two.

    Pompey did not destroy Jerusalem. After he and his army were let into the city by those who favored him, he isolated the Temple, which was surrounded by a wall, by enclosing it within another wall. The only damage done was knocking down one of the towers, allowing entry to the Temple compound. No other damage was done although the defenders of the Temple were slaughtered.

    The Babylonian conquered and destroyed Jerusalem.

    The Persians did not conquer Jerusalem. After Cyrus conquered Babylonia, he allowed the Jews of the Babylonian Exile to return home and even financed the rebuilding of Jerusalem and the Temple. No Persian military forces ever assailed Jerusalem and the Jewish people had considerable freedom to run their own affairs after that.

    Alexander the Macedonian conquered the Persian Empire but never attacked Jerusalem and allowed the Jews the same freedoms they had enjoyed under the Persians.

    As described above, Pompey did not destroy Jerusalem. Since his army was let into the city, it would be pressing a point to even say he conquered Jerusalem. Rome later destroyed both Jerusalem and the Temple but that was over a hundred years after Julius Caesar was dead.

    Your four beast theory does not work very well.

    In what way did Constantine ‘change times and law’? Christianity had already been legalized by Galerius in 311 CE. The 313 Edict of Milan required that property taken from Christians be restored to them. It was not until 380 CE under Theodosius that Christianity became the official religion of Rome.

    Constantine defeated Maxentius and established himself as western emperor. Constantine defeated Licinus, the eastern emperor, and thereby established himself emperor of a united empire. Who is the third king?

    All in all, very unconvincing.
     
  18. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Member

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    Constantine defeated Daia
    Constantine defeated Daia, Severus, and Licinius.

    I suggest that you read all of Daniel. Daniel told Nebuchadnezzar that he was the head of gold (Daniel 2:28) of the statue, the first nation to crush Jerusalem. The statue also had breast and arms of silver, which indicated the Persian empire, which was further described in Daniel 7:5, thighs of bronze, which indicated the Macedonian Empire, further described in Daniel 7:6, and legs of iron with feet of iron and clay, which indicated the Roman empire, as described in Daniel 7:7, until the end of time (Daniel 12). Further descriptions of these empires can be found throughout Daniel all ending up with the whole set of Empires being destroyed at the same time by a stone made without hands, which is the kingdom of God. We are now in the era of the 8th head of the beast who also has 10 horns, and is represented by the feet of iron mixed with clay. The red clay being descriptive of Essau/Edom, the Arabs and other followers of Muhammid, who will combined with the remnants of the Roman empire to try and crush Jerusalem, and will wind up being crushed. Somewhat like the Ottomans and Germans being crushed in the 1st world war, and the Arab states and Russia being crushed in the 6 day war. The final crushing will include all the empires at the same time. The kingdom of God following the crushing of all these empires by the kingdom of heaven will not have to deal with the evil one, for he will be locked up for 1000 years (Revelation 20:2).

    As for the "kingdom of heaven", Yeshua said when raising the dead and healing the sick, the kingdom is at hand. He told his disciples to heal the sick and raise the dead and preach that the kingdom is at hand. In Matthew 11:12 he taught that the kingdom of heaven has been treated violently since the days of John the Baptist until now. Most of the images taught by Yeshua were about the kingdom of heaven, such as Matthew 13:24, whereas the kingdom of heaven is as a man who sowed good seed in his field and the enemy came by while the man slept and sowed tare seeds. The good seed is the testimony of Yeshua, and the tare seed would be the seed sowed by the evil one/devil and his minions.

    As for the unknow guy "Luke", who was supposedly a friend of the false prophet Paul, his first paragraph states that he was a teller of other peoples tales. The Lazarus story probably came out of the lies of the scribes (Jeremiah 8:8), better known as the Talmud.

    As for entering the kingdom of heaven being a stretch for the rich man, well until you sell all you have and follow me, it will only be a supposition to you. To inherit "eternal life", one must first "enter into life" in the here and now. Following the false prophets only leads to destruction, which is disease and death. The walking dead can't expect to have life after their death, apart from the white throne resurrection and judgment. People can repent, or drink from the cup of God's wrath (Revelation 14:10).
     
  19. Miken

    Miken Active Member

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    That is incorrect. As I previously stated, Constantine defeated Licinius. But Licinius had first defeated Daia. Constantine did not defeat Severus. The Emperor Severus died of an illness in 211 CE. Constantine was born in 272 CE.

    Instead of trying to reinvent history to support your otherwise unsupportable claims, try studying actual history.

    Nebuchadnezzar was not the first to ‘crush’ Jerusalem. Around 1500 BCE, the then Canaanite city had become a vassal of the Egyptians. The Egyptian New Kingdom was known for armed conquest although exactly how Jerusalem was taken is not known. After the decline of the New Kingdom, David conquered Jerusalem by force around 1000 BCE. During the reign of King Rehoboam, sometime before 900 BCE, the Pharaoh Shishak sacked Jerusalem. Around 840 BCE, Jerusalem was again sacked by Philistines, Arabs and Ethiopians. By the end of that century, Jerusalem was again conquered by Hazael of Aram Damascus, who made off with the Temple treasure and killed the king’s sons. Around 750 BCE, Jehoash took Jerusalem and destroyed the walls. The Babylonians actually conquered Jerusalem twice, once in 597 BCE and again in 587 BCE after the revolt of Zedekiah.

    The common Christian interpretation of Daniel’s prophecies is significantly in error.


    four kingdoms.jpg

    The 146 BCE date for the start of the Roman presence in Jerusalem is just wrong. There was no Roman presence in the region at all until Pompey went there in 68 BCE to deal with a war over who would succeed to the head of Hasmonean rule in Judea. Pompey had just ended several wars against Rome north of there and wanted all unrest in the area to come to an end to protect the Roman borders. Pompey sided with one of the claimants and defeated the other, restoring peace. Judea became a vassal of Rome, paying annual tribute but otherwise left autonomous. Not until 37 BCE did Hasmonean rule end when Herod the Great attacked them, making Judea a client state of Rome.

    What is the 146 BCE date? It is when the Seleucid Empire in Judea was defeated by the Maccabean revolt, restoring entirely Jewish rule to Jerusalem and the surrounding area for the first time in over five hundred years. The Seleucid Empire had emerged out of the Alexandrian Empire that had broken into pieces after the death of Alexandria. The abuses of Antiochus IV Epiphanes had prove too much to bear.

    The common Christian interpretation of Daniel ignores the existence of the Seleucid empire, the ‘fourth beast’ of Daniel and the Hasmonean kingdom. The Book of Daniel can be dated rather accurately by those detailed that cam true and those that did not to about 165 BCE. Daniel 11 contains a rather detailed and accurate account of events in the timeframe of the Maccabean Revolt up until verse 39, then it completely fails.

    Daniel 11
    40 “At the time of the end, the king of the south shall attack him, but the king of the north shall rush upon him like a whirlwind, with chariots and horsemen, and with many ships. And he shall come into countries and shall overflow and pass through. 41 He shall come into the glorious land. And tens of thousands shall fall, but these shall be delivered out of his hand: Edom and Moab and the main part of the Ammonites. 42 He shall stretch out his hand against the countries, and the land of Egypt shall not escape. 43 He shall become ruler of the treasures of gold and of silver, and all the precious things of Egypt, and the Libyans and the Cushites shall follow in his train. 44 But news from the east and the north shall alarm him, and he shall go out with great fury to destroy and devote many to destruction. 45 And he shall pitch his palatial tents between the sea and the glorious holy mountain. Yet he shall come to his end, with none to help him.

    None of this happened.

    After the defeat of the Seleucids, the end of days was supposed to take place as detailed in Daniel 12, including the resurrection of the dead. The final defeat of the nations (the foreign control of the Jewish homeland) as the beginning of the messianic age was in line with earlier scriptures. That did not happen either. But reinterpreting the meaning of older scriptures to get around problems like this is an old game among Christians.

    According to the Olivet Discourse in the Synoptic Gospels, the Kingdom of Heaven/God (same thing according to Matthew 19) was indeed supposed to have been at hand. Some of the people who heard the still living Jesus speak around 30 CE or so would still be alive when the end of days came not very long after the Destruction of the Temple in 70 CE.

    You still have not responded to my detailed criticism of your interpretation of Matthew 19:17, just repeated your original argument which I have now knocked down twice.

    .

    Address my arguments above about there being no difference between ‘life’ as something to be entered into and ‘eternal life’ as something to be obtained. Or was Jesus lying to the man?

    Perhaps you can find passages in the Gospels where ‘life’ without further qualification clearly does not mean ‘eternal life’. Don’t just claim it does. Prove it.

    Selling all you have is not a universal injunction. If it were then giving the money you got to the poor would be to prevent them from following, while presenting material possessions to those who did the buying. Are they now supposed to sell their possessions? Who buys them? And notice that the poor are getting richer as this goes on and on.

    Only after Jesus gives the requirements for obtaining eternal life and the man says he has always done those things does Jesus want him to sell his possessions and follow him. The man could have said, Thanks Teacher I will do that an walked away. Since it is not a universal injunction what can it mean. Jesus has disciples who eschew material possessions and all connections with their former lives so they can accompany Jesus on the road and be sent ahead in pairs without being tempted to return to their former lives. That is what Jesus is saying, inviting this very righteous man to become one of his traveling companions.

    Look at Luke 14

    25 Now great crowds accompanied him, and he turned and said to them, 26 “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. 27 Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple. 28 For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it? 29 Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, 30 saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish.’ 31 Or what king, going out to encounter another king in war, will not sit down first and deliberate whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? 32 And if not, while the other is yet a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks for terms of peace. 33 So therefore, any one of you who does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple.

    Is Jesus discouraging people from being Christians? No, he is discouraging these great crowds from following him on the road (gobbling up all the food, getting in the way, annoying everyone along the way) unless they were really committed to the hard things needed from them and could be trusted to do them.

    We may note that in Matthew 28, two different words are used that both get translated into ‘disciple’ in English the word μαθητής (mathētēs) is used for those disciples who were part of those who accompanied Jesus on the road, in which sense the word is used ten times. But when referring to those to whom the Apostles are to baptize and teach, the word μαθητεύω (mathēteuō) is used. Same translation but not the same word. In Luke 14, Jesus is not discouraging people from being Christians. He is only discouraging people from literally following him on the literal road unless they are totally and unswervingly committed to the hardships that will entail when he sends them of on missions. Likewise in Matthew 19, the man is being invited to that (literally) hard road which requires giving up everything he has.
     
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  20. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Member

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    Not being there at the time, I depended on a written source which apparently was not correct. Starting from scratch, Daniel 7:24 reads "will subdue three kings", which would be Maxentius, Licinius, and Licinius Junior, who had been declared Caesar by Constantine and Licinius.

    As for the rest, I don't get your point. I didn't mention the year 146 BC. It is like you are saying that Daniel is bunk because it is not correct, yet you seem to fill in the blanks for who is represented by the metals in the statue. Daniel mentions Nebuchadnezzar specifically, and in Daniel 10:13 & 20, he mentioned the coming princes as being from Persia and Greece.

    As for Matthew 19, it seems clear to me, yet to someone who hasn't expressed what the kingdom of God really is, it appears you are without understanding, which falls in line with Daniel 12:10, and Matthew 11:25. In simple terms, you have the walking dead, and those who have entered into life. This "life", is in the here and now.

    As for "enter into life", that was to be had by keeping the commandments (Matthew 19:17). To sell what one has, was to do with becoming "perfect"/"complete". As for giving everything to the poor, the poor can do that easier than the rich. One story given was the poor lady giving everything to someone in need. (Mark 12:44). As for the "eternal life", without entering into life, in the here and now, don't expect to enter into eternal life sometime in the future.

    You seem to be combining Daniel 11 with Daniel 12 as if they are in a continuum. You also seem to be conflating 70 AD with the beginning of the "messianic age", which seems to be a common enough misconception. Revelation 17 was written around the time of Titus, who would represent the 6th mountain/king, the Augustus Caesars up until Constantine, which was the "one is". The 7th king would be the one "who has not come", and then you have the 8th to follow. Daniel was written during the time of the Jews being in captivity by Babylon, and was about the Jews, and not the tribe of Joseph, which had been defeated and scattered among the nations previously. Scriptures such as Jeremiah 30:11, and Ezekiel 36 & 37, places the messianic age taking place in the land given to Jacob, after Judah and Joseph have been reunited, with "My servant David" as king over them. Per Matthew 24:14, the end shall not be until the gospel of the "kingdom of heaven" is preached to the whole world. Up until now, the "Christian" churches preach the gospel of the false prophet Paul, which is the false gospel of grace. There has been no son of man coming on the clouds and collecting the elect from the the four winds. There has been no Har-Magedon (Revelation 16:16), except in a preamble at the end of WWI, were as the German Kaiser's (Caesar) army and the Ottomans were destroyed at Megiddo.
     
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