Christian worship service

Discussion in 'Belief and Spirituality' started by KnowSelf, Dec 15, 2019.

  1. Cino

    Cino Big Love! (Atheist mystic)

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    The confusion is mutual. I don't understand why you keep coming back to this point.

    Here's what I think. I am prepared to be proven wrong. I think, you don't like me calling it patriarchy if a group of men have the last say in your religion. You think that is a bad thing of me to say that and you want me to admit somehow that it should not be called patriarchy. I suggested a couple of times to let our disagreement stand, but somehow, it is bugging you. So you are trying various strategies, blaming the victims, relativizing, calling me prejudiced - anything but address the actual thing I pointed out. I think it is you who are fixating on it.

    The less ideological, more utilitarisn thing for you to do would be to let go of this point. Or to work for change in your religion. Or, my favorite, to discuss how other Baha'is see this. I'm sure there are different opinions on this, why not mention these? That would give us an impression of how your faith tackles one of the hardest nuts to crack for all contemporary religions. Or were they all excommunicated if they spoke up?
     
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  2. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    UK got separation? When how did that happen?

    Saudi, Iran don't eh?

    USA never actually wrote it in.

    Israel feels pretty Jewish.
     
  3. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    Ok, let's have a go here:

    Definitely and completely safeguarded by WHOM? Good people? But perhaps they're bad people? Who is making the final decisions here? What are the personal freedoms and initiatives? Need they conform to the decisions of the body that 'definitely and completely safeguards' these freedoms? In other words: Am I free to walk in the park if I want to, and who decides?

    OK. But who has the 'world legislature' and who implements the movements of The International Force? Surely not religious leaders? Will religious leaders send soldiers to war to promote and defend God as they believe him to be? Will the final decision fall to them? What about the secularists – and of course the many other religions which do not agree with the ruling Bahai world government people?

    The 'manifesto' assumes it will always be in the hands of the good people. But history demonstrates how vanishingly unlikely this really is likely to be?

    A perfectly fair one, untainted by human error and emotion. But WHO has the final decision when it comes down to the wire?

    Oh, ok, perhaps. In fact he got that one right, so far. Give the man his due. But it requires scientists. And scientists aren't easily snowed by idealistic propaganda, imo.

    All the best people, the top literati and the top intelligentsia will be focussed in an elevated urban hub where they live on all the best? They will walk around in velvet slippers, while the ordinary peasants and labourers as usual have mud on their boots? Willingly, of course?

    How will science and religion be reconciled? Which one will need to give way? And who will decide what constitutes the body of world literature? Will it need to be written in the world language, to even qualify the contest? What about writing and literature that lies outside the remit and world language?


    Ok, right from the start the press is going to write only what the controlling religious state agrees to allow? Fine, no need to dress it up in nice words. At least this new world government is honest from the start that it will control the press.


    CORRUPTION is the greatest problem. It's just going to vanish? Everyone is going to become completely altruistic? No-one's ever going to make a buck on the side? Foreign aid is never going to go stray? Sure. And pigs will fly! Human nature will change. How and by whom is this WORLD ECONOMY going to be policed and regulated? It is going to require very strong policing and penalties? Will the regulators and brokers be honest? Since when, in the history of the planet Earth?


    Pure unadulterated woo …


    Not ever in this world ...


    Ok, but they've already made me give up smoking and eat less salt, etc. I can't live forever, there are too many of us already, and that's a fact. So how are we going to look after all the old people?


    Ok. But it sounds like a cut from 'Woodstock'.


    But who will supply the new Force and new Justice? This is getting to the heart of the isssue.


    OUR God and OUR revelation?


    We're all going to become Bahai? Not me ...
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2019
  4. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    So? How is that my problem? Africa feels pretty African? The separation between church and state in UK, Israel and USA -- and most of Africa too -- is at least legally defined, even if it's not always practised. There's a legal mechanism.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2019
  5. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    Yes. This is it. People are messed up. We're NEVER going to be regimented and controlled. Sometimes we may have to pretend we are, but then it's only out of fear. One world government? Well ... I can't buy the idea, lol ...
     
  6. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Member

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    I am not saying this is the reason that women cannot serve on the UHJ. I do not know the reason.
    Baha'is are not the religion that is stuck in a time warp like the older religions.
    The social teachings and laws of the Baha'i Faith are in keeping with the new age, but that does not mean that we are going to advocate free love and all the decadence of modern-day society.
    You have a right to your opinion. My opinion is that Baha'u'llah knows more than I do because His Will was identical to the Will of God and God is All-Knowing. I consider it illogical to focus so much on one aspect of the Baha'i Faith. Imo, freedom and equality is not lost simply because women cannot serve on the UHJ.
    How you perceive it is how you perceive it. All I can do is present accurate information. Some of what you say is inaccurate information so that is why I said "it is not what it looks like."
    I am not invalidating your perceptions. You have a right to them just as I have a right to mine, but I cannot change your perceptions and I don't have any interest in doing so. I have responded to your perceptions, but I see no reason to keep going around the same block.
     
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  7. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Member

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    No, Baha'is do not believe that any religion is going to govern the whole human race. Governments will do that.
     
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  8. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Member

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    Baha'is do not believe the Baha'i Faith is going to rule the world. That is laughable as well as impossible given we are disallowed from being involved in politics, except to vote.

    “The Faith which this order serves, safeguards and promotes is … essentially supernatural, supranational, entirely non-political, non-partisan, and diametrically opposed to any policy or school of thought that seeks to exalt any particular race, class or nation. It is free from any form of ecclesiasticism, has neither priesthood nor rituals, and is supported exclusively by voluntary contributions made by its avowed adherents. Though loyal to their respective governments, though imbued with the love of their own country, and anxious to promote at all times, its best interests, the followers of the Bahá’í Faith, nevertheless, viewing mankind as one entity, and profoundly attached to its vital interests, will not hesitate to subordinate every particular interest, be it personal, regional or national, to the over-riding interests of the generality of mankind, knowing full well that in a world of interdependent peoples and nations the advantage of the part is best to be reached by the advantage of the whole, and that no lasting result can be achieved by any of the component parts if the general interests of the entity itself are neglected….”
    The Promised Day Is Come, vi - vii
     
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  9. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Member

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    Patriarchy: a system of society or government in which men hold the power and women are largely excluded from it. https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=patriarchy+definition

    It is laughable to call the Baha’i Faith a patriarchy because women are not "largely excluded" from participation in the organization. They are only excluded from the UHJ and the UHJ does not control what the LSAs and the NSAs do. That is not their function.

    According to its constitution, the Universal House of Justice itself states that "The provenance, the authority, the duties, the sphere of action of the Universal House of Justice all derive from the revealed Word of Bahá'u'lláh which, together with the interpretations and expositions of `Abdu'l-Bahá and of Shoghi Effendi ... constitute the binding terms of reference of the Universal House of Justice and are its bedrock foundation."[7] Some of the powers and duties according to the constitution include:[9]
    • Promoting the spiritual qualities that characterize Bahá'í life individually and collectively
    • Preserving the Bahá'í sacred texts
    • Defending and protecting the global Bahá'í community from repression and persecution
    • Preserving and developing the world spiritual and administrative centre of the Bahá'í Faith
    • Encouraging the growth and maturation of the Bahá'í community and administration
    • Safeguarding individual personal rights, freedoms and initiatives
    • Applying Bahá'í principles and laws
    • Developing, abrogating and changing laws that are not recorded in the Bahá'í sacred texts, according to the requirements of the time
    • Pronouncing sanctions against violations of Bahá'í law
    • Adjudicating and arbitrating of disputes referred to it
    • Administrating all religious funds and endowments such as Huqúqu'lláh that are entrusted to its care
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_House_of_Justice
     
  10. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    Lol, who said it was? It was a statement.

    If the vast majority of a country is one religion I can see that country being that religion. It is a remnant of the past, before their were govts there were religions, they made the laws to try to keep the peace and or control.

    This one of the many reasons they are waning...separation of church and state...but again I ask....how and when did the UK do it?
     
  11. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    As to Baha'i and the UHJ I can't understand how any woman would stand for it. That being said idk how anybwoman would stand for the US legislators that pass laws controlling their bodies either. Or catholic women being not allowed in the priesthood or even priests not allowed to marry.

    But those are all personal choices (accept the us legislators they don't have the power to vote out) ... Then again I don't understand a lot of things...but will remind myself and others of Muslim Woman who spoke eloquently as to why she wore a hijab and scarf in public and dressed in clothes/robes so he figure could not be discerned thru her clothing. This was an English woman formerly in her Majesty's army, post that an educated woman climbing the corporate ladder...who converted to Islam moved to Egypt and left this forum as her faith and belief forbade her to discuss the topics with us males here. I didn't understand it all, but she did, and was able to help us see beyond our modern western eyes to a degree.

    So I don't expect to understand the logic of the Baha'i or Orthodox ways of most religions...and the logical among ya doesn't want me as a convert anyway.
     
  12. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Member

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    Baha'is do not believe that history will repeat itself. We believe that this is a new age and eventually all the religions will voluntarily choose to unite under one common banner. After everyone has recognized Baha'u'llah for who He claimed to be the world will be completely different.
    Baha'is do not believe in the doctrine of original sin so there is nothing to be forgiven for. However, we believe that God can forgive sins that we commit. We also believe that Jesus had the power to forgive sins.

    Baha'is do not believe in individual salvation because we do not believe in a literal hell. We believe in the salvation of all of humanity, which means "the regeneration of the whole world, and the establishment of the unity of its peoples, and the salvation of all them that dwell therein.” (Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 243)
    Baha'is believe in a personal God but we do not believe we can have a direct relationship with God. We can only relate to God through His Manifestations, such as Jesus, Muhammad, and Baha'u'llah.
    No, we just have to sign a card declaring our belief before the members of the Local Spiritual Assembly (LSA).
    No, I do not miss it since I was never really very involved and I am not a sociable person; I am an introvert who likes to be alone.
    No, we do not have any such elements of communion.
     
  13. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Member

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    We all look at things with a different perspective...
    It is not as if women are pining for the great responsibility of serving on the UHJ.
    The Baha'i Faith is all about service to God and humanity. We can serve in ANY other capacity, so why would we care if we can serve on the UHJ? That would seem like an ego trip to me, wanting to feel important and recognized because we are elected to the UHJ. :rolleyes:

    Besides all of that, Baha'is trust God. We believe that Baha'u'llah was God's Representative on earth, so we do not question His authority. We know there is a good reason why women are not on the UHJ and it will be revealed to us in due time as promised.
     
  14. KnowSelf

    KnowSelf Active Member

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    what will be the consequences for not following Bahal?
     
  15. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Member

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    The Baha'i Faith does not plan to establish one world government or one world faith. All we say is what we believe the future the government will be as described below. That does not say anything about the Baha'is doing anything to make this happen or Baha'is being a part of this. It is simply what was "envisioned" by Baha'u'llah.

    “The unity of the human race, as envisaged by Bahá’u’lláh, implies the establishment of a world commonwealth in which all nations, races, creeds and classes are closely and permanently united, and in which the autonomy of its state members and the personal freedom and initiative of the individuals that compose them are definitely and completely safeguarded. This commonwealth must, as far as we can visualize it, consist of a world legislature, whose members will, as the trustees of the whole of mankind, ultimately control the entire resources of all the component nations, and will enact such laws as shall be required to regulate the life, satisfy the needs and adjust the relationships of all races and peoples. A world executive, backed by an international Force, will carry out the decisions arrived at, and apply the laws enacted by, this world legislature, and will safeguard the organic unity of the whole commonwealth. A world tribunal will adjudicate and deliver its compulsory and final verdict in all and any disputes that may arise between the various elements constituting this universal system.” (The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 203)

    Baha'is believe that eventually there will be only one religion, the religion of God, because that is what God has ordained. We do not even know what that religion will be called.
    Baha'is do not believe that any divine Messenger is better than any other. That goes completely against our beliefs to prefer one over another. What we believe is that the Messenger for this age knows what is best for humanity in this age, because He was sent by God with the remedy for the problems humanity has in this age.

    “The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.” (Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213)

    “No man, however acute his perception, can ever hope to reach the heights which the wisdom and understanding of the Divine Physician have attained. Little wonder, then, if the treatment prescribed by the physician in this day should not be found to be identical with that which he prescribed before. How could it be otherwise when the ills affecting the sufferer necessitate at every stage of his sickness a special remedy?” (Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 80)
    There is not going to be a Baha'i one world faith government.
    There is not going to be a religious government. Government will always be separate from religion. That is my understanding of the Baha'i beliefs.
     
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  16. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Member

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    There are no consequences whatsoever. Joining the Baha'i Faith is strictly voluntary and it always will be.
     
  17. muhammad_isa

    muhammad_isa Active Member

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    No .. I don't see it like that.
    It is mankind who "make the rules".

    Some nations are comprised of pious people and some are not. Some are somewhere in between.
    Nations also have different values and opinions as to what "democracy" means .. or should mean etc.

    Personally, I think it's a complicated subject. It is not about WHICH religion is adopted by politicians.
    It is more about where the rules originate.
    Of course, Christianity seems to be in dispute over "rules" or laws in any case. Some think that
    Jesus, peace be with him, cancelled civilization. Well .. something along those lines ;)
     
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  18. RJM Corbet

    RJM Corbet God Feeds the Ravens

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    @Trailblazer
    Thank you. I understand now. I hope I caused you no offence.
    When exactly did the UK invent parliamentary democracy and separation of powers, you mean? The UK doesnt have a written constitution.

    As for a perfect world, Boris promises to deliver that for us, lol ...
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2019
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  19. Truthseeker9

    Truthseeker9 Active Member

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    By the governments of the world. I don't know for sure but probably there will be standards that will be agreed upon by the World Government such as the declaration of human rights by the UN after WWII. But this was not enforced and in this world government it will be enforced. Also one thing to note is that initially the world government will be formed by non-Baha'is because it's in the worlds interest. It will be formed because of things like a united attempt to solve the climate crisis, to have a united attempt to prevent war, to reduce the costs of armament and to spend the money on better causes, and to help regulate the economy for the good of all as they see it. It will be imperfect, there will be disagreements between national representatives and sometimes they will make wrong decisions. But this is much better than right now with the international chaos and war. We can see the embryonic start of that with examples like the EU, which made Europe much more peaceful and united than before after WWII. I have concern that this seems to be somewhat unraveling right now. This initial world government will bring the Lesser Peace. When the lesser peace comes more and more people will see that this is not sufficient, and will move towards true unity, and probably this will start turning people toward Baha'i more, and there will be a lot of growth by the Baha'i Faith. Right now, new Baha'is are hard to come by, especially in the rich countries like the US, countries in Europe, and Japan. It is mostly in the poor countries that the Baha'i Faith is growing. Though we are thinly spread out, we are second to Christianity in the areas of the world reside. We don't know how many Baha'is there are in the world right now, but in the 1990's the UHJ said there were over 5 million Baha'is in the world. Normally we don't keep track of how many Baha'is there are, we concentrate more on how many local governing LSAs there are and how many communities where Baha'is reside. Eventually there will be what we call the most great peace where the unity of people with each other will be firmly established.
    As I said above the world legislature will consist of representatives from the various nations of the world, the number of representatives from each nation decided mutually by negotiation, I don't know if the number from each nation will be strictly proportionate but definitely the more populous nations will have more representation I would think. The executive, whatever it is consisted of, whether kit be consisted of one or several people will carry out the decisions of the world tribunal about disputes and war between different which hopefully have proportionate representation from all nations of the world. This is what Abdu'l-Baha advocates. They decide disputes between different nations enforced by the international force under the executive. The government of a nation that tries to war against another nation will be stopped by the international force and the government that does that will be destroyed and replaced by another. What the mechanism will be to get another government should be a new election, presumably with those that started the war ineligible to be elected. I hope this will never happen. Probably the threat of an international force enforcing peace and their being removed from office will eliminate war. The decisions of the other disputes between nations could of course be erroneous, but this is better than international anarchy.

    This is all I can address tonight, I am past my bed time. Probably there are things I have said here that are still unclear to you.
     
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  20. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    Baha'i seems a natural step for folks walking away from Islam. And then with Islam seeming to be the religion that rejects it the most, that increases its favorability. It being a new religion and so small it's percentage growth is naturally higher then other religions but the number of new adherents doesn't compare.
     

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